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All The Ingredients But Lacks Polish

Discussion in 'PS4' started by Samo1, Aug 29, 2019.

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  1. Samo1

    Samo1 Member

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    I’m a gamer of 35 years, I have played thousands of games, the different between a good game and a great game is polish, TSW 2020 is a good game but lack of polish is disappointing in my opinion, the frame rate is my biggest concern, I would be happy to lose some background scenery to keep the frame rate up, a mouse option should be an absolute must for controlling the train AND proper keyboard support for those of us that want that, how hard can that be? the game offers a sim experience but vanishing one size fits all passengers kill the atmosphere, they are there and disappear in the blink of an eye, graphical glitches inside the cabs especially round the windows don’t get fixed and the sound is unfortunately all over the place and simply unrealistic

    Yes I understand new DLC takes up time and pays the bills but customers pay good money and should expect the best product possible, I would love TSW staff to give their thoughts on this post and more importantly spend ALL the time needed on fixing existing issues and make this not just a good game but a GREAT POLISHED game

    You really should be listening to your customers because without us there is no TSW, I read the same issues and requests over and over and it appears to fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes)

    A reply from TSW staff would be appropriated and not just a bog standard reply, a reply that answers my thoughts and criticisms (along with other customers who have posted similar)
     
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  2. InspectorTiger

    InspectorTiger Active Member

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    All perfectly fair points. DTG is constantly improving and polishing the game, but we're all aware there is still plenty of room for improvement. Please uninstall TSW from your console, and we'll let you know when the game has reached the level of polish which you require. This may take a year or two, but it will get there. You can then reinstall it and play to your heart's content.
     
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  3. Samo1

    Samo1 Member

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    Many games these days, In fact most unfortunately are released early, use customers as free game testers, then listen to the feedback and CORRECT what needs correcting, I’m from a time before the internet was used to provide patches and games had to be finished BEFORE they were released, Devs are lazy now because they can release early and patch when and if they feel like, this is an industry problem not just DTG

    It would actually be refreshing for DTG to address the issues their customers have and then do the right thing and implement fixes and consider simple things like proper mouse and keyboard options

    Thanks for the sarcasm by the way, it’s people like you that let games companies get away with what they do
     
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  4. Observadorpt

    Observadorpt Member

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    well took 1 year for them to fix car collector trophy, lets hope they dont need another year to fix some crashes, sounds and trophies not popping when they should. The game is awesome but is this kind of bugs and glitches that ruins the experience.
     
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  5. InspectorTiger

    InspectorTiger Active Member

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    No sarcasm intended. The points you mentioned are all being worked on, and will be fixed in time; if you find the quality of the game unacceptable in the meantime, you're under no obligation to play it. If, on the other hand, you enjoy it in spite of the problems like teleporting passengers, they can't be all that serious, can they?
     
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  6. Manclion

    Manclion Active Member

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    How do you know that those issues are being worked on?
    Any evidence or just hearsay?
     
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  7. Jez

    Jez Active Member

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    My thoughts exactly. Care to expand Tiger?
     
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  8. Dougal

    Dougal New Member

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    Polish or do you mean polish?
     
  9. Jez

    Jez Active Member

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    I'm sure we all know we are not obliged to play any game. Once money has changed hands, it's clear the only obligation is with DTG to provide a product that is fit for purpose. Many customers here don't think they are meeting such an obligation and are quite within their rights to say so.
     
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  10. Bamz2317

    Bamz2317 Member

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    Some pretty good points there. I've been playing tsw since it was released, the game is much better then it use to be. But yes there still things that need to be fixed. I would like them to update the regularly instead of every time a route comes out
     
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  11. Samo1

    Samo1 Member

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    Train models are lovely, the game is good but NO ONE GOES THE EXTRA MILE TO MAKE THE GAME AS GOOD AS IT SHOULD BE

    I’m sure most players would sooner DTG spend time polishing the core game than spewing out average DLC but as I said, DLC pays the bills and that’s understandable but it also shortchanges paying customers who should always come first if they want to build and KEEP a loyal fan and customer base
     
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  12. Samo1

    Samo1 Member

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    Ask DTG, they capitalised polish
     
  13. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Active Member

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    If you bought everything for TSW, on release, then in the last year you would have spent just under £284. That's Two Hundred And Eighty-Four pounds/GBP. The worst thing is that, on release, the chances that the product has been properly tested appear to be close to zero. I am also a gamer of 35 years standing (since 1982, but the less said about that the better...). I haven't seen anything like TSW in terms of application build quality, unless it was freeware, a community freeware project, a student project, or a very rough Beta release.

    I am only talking about the UI here - the simulation itself is generally quite superb, and for me, on PS4, it is almost flawless (except when a very bad script or build comes into play, and that is quite rare).

    So - I am actually quite content with the simulation - for me, it's excellent. But I would like the cost to come down by about 90 per cent. Yes. I am saying that the TSW 2020 should have ten routes at least (all of them so far), and 50 locomotives (all of them so far, plus a few more), and for it all to be available for £30. And then, no paid DLC at all. And then, in 2022 or 2023, another title for the PS5, with an even wider scope, for the same price of about £30.

    And DTG could do this for PS4/PS5 (and meet this price point for the content), and make *lots* more money through increased sales, if the product was fit for purpose. Some of the DLCs have a less than one per cent buy rate.....

    But it won't happen yet, because the quality of everything around the (truly excellent) simulation is abysmal. This includes the UI, the manual documentation, the marketing on Playstation Store (some of which I think is bordering on not being quite legal), and the atrocious Technical Support. And if you think I am being overly critical, then head down to see the reviews on Steam.... I only went there to pick up the manuals (because that's what you have to do if you have a PS4....!!!), and the reviews there are truly shocking, but, sadly, not surprising.

    DTG needs to listen to existing PS4/console customers, because they:

    - are the future very wide base for TSW
    - are completely connected to each other as a social network
    - all have standard highly reliable equipment, so optimisation is relatively easy
    - are reliable sources for reporting bugs and issues, because they have standard equipment

    But PS4/console customers don't expect to need to have a degree in wild goose chasing to understand the UI, obtain and read a manual, or problem solve to make your way through a menu and understand progress in a game (something I am still trying to reverse engineer to understand). Because a casual PS4 gamer that picks up TSW will just stop playing it, if they have trouble with the software. And they will not tell their friends to buy it.

    So, DTG has to make a choice. Does it want to only sell TSW to a small group of railfans (lovely as they are), who will tolerate TSW for what it is (because it is the best thing out there, to be fair).... and do this in perpetuity, and charge that loyal base ten times as much as they should for poor quality stuff (albeit with an excellent sim at the core),

    OR

    Does DTG want to make lots and lots of money by making an easy to use, highly immersive, good quality game, with a decent scope of content, that will appeal to new players, and their friends, including the ten and eleven year olds that could be inspired to become future engineers and railway persons?
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
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  14. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Active Member

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    Your post was not helpful. Which is strange, because most of your posts are. And sometimes they might be funny. I have a policy of not downvoting any posts, but, if I were to downvote one post per day for a month, then I would spend the whole quota for the month on your post here.

    You can do better than this Tiger! (And, no, there isn't a tiger behind you).

    I suspect that you are a fan of Latin, so I will say this. Buying TSW does not come with a Caveat Emptor or Caveat Lector warning, for the customer. It comes with a Caveat Venditor warning for the developer. If a customer has to fork out £284 to buy some software, there is a reasonable expectation that such software will work properly, look good and be easy to use. If the software doesn't match expectations (and let's be fair, DTG is not shy when it comes to using superlatives), then users will complain.

    And yes - you are right. Existing users, especially that very very small microcosm that appear on these Forums will continue to use TSW, despite the flaws. But everyone else will do just what you recommend, without even seeing your recommendation - and never come back to TSW again - and that very large number of people is quite important.
     
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  15. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Active Member

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    You seem to be very well informed about DTG's operations, their economic base, sales rates, personal preferences of key DTG management, future product releases, development pipelines, and UE tile construction methods. And really quite defensive about DTG. And offensive to any of their outspoken customers.

    It almost seems like you work for DTG, or work very closely with DTG. Now, I am not saying that you do work for DTG, no, of course not. I am just saying that for some people, you might appear to work for DTG. I don't personally think this, because DTG staff don't tend to publish directly offensive things to their customers - they are always incredibly polite.

    But I do think that perhaps you haven't had to part with £284 to get a full version of TSW. I don't know this, of course. It could simply be that £284 isn't much money to you. Or that you have personally got at least £284 in value out of TSW. I have no idea whether it is any of these things, or none. It's just that I noticed that when you advised samo to delete his copy of TSW, you did not suggest that he obtain a refund......
     
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  16. Jez

    Jez Active Member

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    I'm glad it's not just me that's been thinking that! Something's not right.

    Can you imagine any scenario where "you are not obliged to use it" would be acceptable to a customer. Take a car dealer as an example.
    Customer: Hello, I purchased a new car last week and it doesn't seem to work.
    Car Dealer: Well you are no obliged to use it.
    Customer: You are right. I'm so sorry for wasting your time, goodbye.

    It's almost as if Tiger is a mouthpiece for what DTG really want to say without it officially being DTG. A forum mole.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
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  17. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Member

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    Synthetic Angel Thats pretty much me right there. Now I dont want this to be a bash the devs post because I happen to think they are doing some really really cool stuff in building this title, but Ill just summarise my personal and highly subjective experience.

    Uninstalled after NTP came out, recently re-installed and I am still blown away by how pretty it looks but.... not purchased anything since WSR and NTP because GWE still lacks the inmersion and quality Im looking for.. why would I buy more of the same empty experiences. Its a really nice looking sim, but in terms of believing Im in that world its just not achieving that. The sky box is appalling for this day and age, streets are empty, the world at night is dark with no house lights etc. Passengers are all the same age and wearing the same stuff, and whats with passengers sitting in the cab.. signals on GWE dont flash to show a divergence approaching, sounds are still problematic.

    I want to love this title, I want to support it, I want to tell others about it, I want to buy more routes. But Im not currently in a place where I feel I can do that without feeling saddened because of those things above. :( We want to be driving these Class 166s with big smiles while chillaxing right? :) i certainly want to be driving in these routes appreciating the stunning job the devs have done creating the stations etc not having my ears blasted out by the door chimes.. you see the chimes are controlled by the same slider that controls general train volume so turn those down and you cant hear the train.. immersion gone and sad face on..

    Maybe soon? :) Im cautiously optimistic after recent changes in the pace of improvement and a subtle sense of direction I see emerging. I certainly hope so anyway.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
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  18. Samo1

    Samo1 Member

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    I’m certainly not trying to bash the devs but they are clearly not going the extra mile to polish the game either, this is a functional sim that could be exceptional if the effort was put into it
     
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  19. dunkrez

    dunkrez Member

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    This thread is a good read, and sums up my thoughts about TSW and DTG. Tiger may be mole, that's a reasonable idea given what's been said.

    Here's hoping DTG raise the bar, and reach for the same heights as the best dev teams out there.
     
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  20. InspectorTiger

    InspectorTiger Active Member

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    Oh well, I had a good run!

    In a way, I almost wanted to be caught. It's a cry for help.
     
  21. Jez

    Jez Active Member

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    Took you a while to come up with that. So why are you so sure that DTG are working on all the points mentioned and what's with the very low expectation when it comes to customer service? You do seem to frequently mock any requests for better customer service and feedback from DTG. That can only be in DTG's best interests rather than yours, as "a customer". You must get off on it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
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  22. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Member

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    Thats made me chuckle ;) And now sir, kindly step this way. Mustnt keep the executioner waiting..
     
  23. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Active Member

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    I must admit that this comment by InspectorTiger did actually make me smirk a bit too. He can be quite funny, and often quite helpful. However, I do think that he somehow "forgets" what TSW is.

    TSW is a software product put on sale across multiple platforms, to customers that expect (and legally have a right to) some level of fitness for purpose. They expect a product that is professionally made, to a reasonable quality, that has been fully tested and finished by the time it goes on sale. Some of those customers that might have spent nearly £300. You can buy a new PS4 and a bunch of new professionally produced games for this amount of hard cash.

    TSW is not some sort of community project that is put together by a group of largely thankless and wonderfully altruistic volunteers, working together with a common purpose, that then release their hard graft for free under a GPL license. If it was, then InspectorTiger would be pretty much fully justified in his approach (in my opinion) - because in that case it would be really hard to criticise the key people developing the software, giving up their time for free, out of the kindness of their hearts. Anyone else choosing to contribute their free time to report bugs and errors should then expect to be quite patient for their observations to be considered, and fixed (if they are looked at all...).

    If, for some reason, you haven't had to pay for TSW, then, of course, you could quite reasonably take the same relaxed approach as InspectorTiger, as it would be quite unfair to have any expectations of quality, at a price.

    But with TSW, as a product that requires a purchase
    (and re-purchase....) - this sort of fixing should happen as the absolute priority. It should be both IMPORTANT and URGENT. When customers report bugs and issues, they are providing valuable and "unexpected" feedback that should not have been necessary in the first place. But, that said, it must be quite difficult to roll out patches for PS4 on a frequent basis, because Sony will wonder what the heck is going on... When Dovetail launch their next product, they should ensure that it is working correctly, before it is published and put on sale.

    Paying customers should not be the first port of call for basic software testing.
     
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  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    TSW is essentially free as it's always bundled with DLC. Each DLC is either a standalone product or has interacting DLC, so I disagree that £300 has been spent by anyone on "TSW" even though their collection of DLC may have totalled that.

    You would have to explain the "re-purchase" comment, because you don't have to repurchase either TSW or any of the DLC if you get them from DTG on any of the digital license platforms. Not sure on how it works if you had a hard copy, but those should probably transfer anyway

    Tell this to Microsoft, Apple, Samsung, Google, EA, Ubisoft and loads of others. Software has often been release in a "good enough" state and then patched. Christ some high profile games have been released in less than an Alpha state let alone fully beta tested. Wasn't there an assassins creed where people didn't have faces?
     
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  25. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    All fair points, Train Sim World is not a community project, however, Train Sim World is the type of game that sees new features and improvements added with every new product release. New features mean things that were working fine previously may break, which is, of course, unfortunate, but we do try to issue patches as soon as we can for the most glaring issues like crashes.

    Not sure what you mean by not working correctly, I saw your screenshots while playing the game so the simulation must be working correctly.

    There are issues which require significant resources to fix, that includes engine-related issues (sound bugs, raining through station roof), so unless they are game-breaking they may be of a lower priority. Such things may take disproportional time to fix only to break again later, for example during the game engine upgrade.

    Besides, the team is constantly learning more about the capabilities of the engine, and I'd also like to point out that Train Sim World is the first time Dovetail Games dipped into the console market, with the PS4 and Xbox versions released only 12 months ago. There is a lot of learning to do for the team. As of now, such a complex simulation like Train Sim World runs rather well on this old equipment. You will never be able to run Train Sim World on a PC which components cost £150 altogether.

    PS4 patches have nothing to do with what Sony thinks, all patches require days to be compiled and certified to be released on all platforms, this means that even if everything is ready, the patch may only be released a week later.

    I do understand the frustration caused by bugs, but they rarely prevent users from enjoying the game, although I agree there are ways we can improve our customer support and the way we process feedback. As of now the most reliable way of reporting bugs is through support, but it is important to provide as many details as possible, as around 75% of new bug submissions are not bugs at all. These can often be dealt with be re-installing the game, checking the integrity of files and other early measures, which is the reason why they are usually suggested first. That said, we are looking at ways of improving our first line of support, including bringing extra consoles that allow quick tests as we go.
     
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  26. dunkrez

    dunkrez Member

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    I actually want to upvote and downvote this reply at the same time. Less defending, more focus on delivering the very best would be the right direction. The customer is king. Without them, there is no TSW, no TS2019.
     
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  27. xD 2Bad4You

    xD 2Bad4You Well-Known Member

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    Wasnt Eurofishing the first time Dovetail dipped into the Console market and not TSW?
     
  28. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    You got me there, that was well before my time :) Doesn't change the fact that console is fairly new territory for us.
     
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  29. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    Please don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration our players' experience, but there has been a lot of bashing in the past couple of days over relatively minor issues, so I must make some things clearer.

    The goal of our dev team is to deliver the best experience, it is simply not in our interest to disappoint players. Some of our main heroes like Matt work extra hours every day delivering the best they can, if you'd visited our offices you would find a lot of passionate and dedicated people, it is no leisure park here!
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  30. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Kudos for acknowledging you're all just humans too, and thank you for the insight into how bugfixing works in practice!
     
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  31. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Active Member

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    Thank you for this - this seems to me to be a very open, straightforward and detailed response. This is very much appreciated. It basically sums up what I think is going on with "TSW" (and associated DLCs, as bundled, or defined....). And you can read that in many ways....

    Basically, TSW (and associated DLCs, as bundled, or defined....) was not ready to be rolled out on PS4 (or X-Box), to a wide PS4 audience. And that's fair enough - you could have held it back until you were ready. It is still not ready - for all the reasons that you describe. Moving to PS4 is a big step - and requires "polish" (as the OP first entitled this thread). When you do it, you need to be ready, or your reputation gets trashed permanently. If you do it right, then you have access to a massive market.

    Now that launch to console has taken place (a year ago), I suggest that you do everything humanly possible to clean it up as quickly as possible, before you publish anything else, and bring it all to console standard. Every day that you wait, you lose customers. Every trophy that does not get published to a group of friends, loses you customers. Every single crash, dodgy bit of UI, failed module, etc., loses you customers.

    The people that actually report issues to you represent 0.001% of your customer base. The other 99.999% are having the same problems, and many of them will just give up on you, let alone spread the word about the goodness.....

    It's a massive opportunity cost to launch a genius bit of software, when it carries so many flaws.

    That said - I want to be very clear - I am, personally speaking, 99% happy with TSW (and associated DLCs, as bundled, or defined....). It is truly superb. I bought it because it did not require Steam (which stopped me buying TS20xx), and could be played on the couch (I can't imagine sitting at a desk for hours), and because of the Class 09 (well done to your marketing team...). And I have literally waxed lyrical about my positive experiences, on this Forum. I am, personally speaking, very tolerant when it comes to bugs and issues, because I can work around them, one way or another, when I need to, and because I want to. Anyone that played the first two X-Com games, to the bitter end, will know what I mean.... ;-)

    But.... I would like TSW (and associated DLCs, as bundled, or defined....) to be extremely successful. So, I am trying to help you. I feel that strongly about it, because TSW (and associated DLCs, as bundled, or defined....) is an amazing concept. I don't need to help you - and it's not my problem - but I can see that there are huge problems that DTG need to overcome, which you have explained, quite openly. Thank you.

    It's mostly all process problems...... both with the software, and the management of everything else... I'd rather make this a private discussion... but that hasn't been possible... so..... Watch this space.
     
  32. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Active Member

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    Free TSW: Can you drop me a web link for the "essentially free TSW" (the one that isn't bundled with anything)...? That is a rhetorical question... ;-)

    I purchased GWE twice. Once with the PS4 disc version of "Train Sim World" (which wasn't advertised as a "bundle" by the way...), and then I bought GWE again when I bought "TSW2020". Hence: Purchase, and re-purchase. Arguably, I have also bought the Class 47 and the GP38-2 twice as well.., but that's another matter entirely... (*ducks*)

    Anyway - as an aside: Yesterday I read a fabulous "article" in "Railways Illustrated" (October 2019) about TSW2020. The "article" did not explain the base game/DLC/bundle relationships at all. Quite shocking...! The "article" was in the same issue of the magazine as a full back cover advert for "TSW2020", an advert which gave the impression (visually) that TSW2020 incorporated material from three countries, but also didn't explain the base/DLC relationship.... Nor would I expect it to. The advert, like me, uses "TSW" as shorthand. Sorry about that.

    As a double aside...well...actually... back on topic.... the "article" (or unmarked advertorial, depending on your perspective), also stated this:

    "You will not be pulled from the immersion by any gaffe or error in functionality or modelling". The article appeared to still be talking about TSW 2020... I would have used the word "rarely" instead of "not", to be a bit more objective. But broadly speaking, she is right.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You weren't "required to repurchase" (your original statement) anything. You chose to buy the TSW2020 bundle for your own reasons, it wasn't required to get TSW2020 or any of the bundled content. That you already HAD some of the content that DTG chose to bundle with TSW2020 is not relevant

    Funny enough, car adverts in the UK don't tell you which tyres you will get, or radio, or who makes the seats. Adverts (and fluff pieces) can be quite funny like that.
    The problem with the way TSW is sold isn't down to DTG (who have done a very good job of it in the steam store, giving a decent breakdown of what ELSE you get in the bundle) but the way the PS and Xbox stores work, there's nothing in their listings to say that you get TSW2020 and several routes, in fact when I looked at PSStore this morning TSW2020 is a strategy game...

    In other words, I wouldn't rely on things that are probably out of DTG's control as ammunition AGAINST DTG

    There's enough wrong in the game that we don't need to quote misselling laws which aren't relevant.

    I don't know about you, but I've never been on a train where the rails pop into full visibility about 30feet in front of the train, but each to their own :)
     
  34. ildario77

    ildario77 Active Member

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    Thanks for your articulated reply, but I'm a well seasoned console player (I also wrote for videogames magazines for about 10 years) and believe me, I NEVER solved console games problems reinstalling the game or launching a defrag utility. This is a typical PC-oriented solution and it never works on a console. If it works, well, maybe the problem is related with something else. In my opinion, TSW is a great concept and potentially it could open a new niche in the console market (a more adult-oriented market than 10, 15 years ago), but it's clearly an incomplete work. Some bugs are so big that it's almost impossibile not to see them in a 10 minute beta-testing session (maybe are we the beta-testers??? Mmmm, hamletic...) Optimization is the weakest part of TSW. I know PS4 and Xbox One are at the end of their life cycle, but come on, you can do better than this... It seems DTG cut features randomly just to lighten the game, but results are clearly subpar for a 2018-2019 production. I hope this game will succeed cause, as I said, it has a lot of potential. In September 2019 it's still a 55/100 game...
     
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  35. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Active Member

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    I completely agree with this - the advice to PS4 users to rebuild console databases (defrag) and re-install software, based on absolutely nothing, is completely pointless, in 99.9% of cases. This advice really needs to stop. It is used to replicate the "advice" given to PC users (which is slightly more appropriate, but also not a good way to go about pre-filtering... more on this later, in a later post.....).

    Unfortunately, if a PS4 user reports a bug/issue, and they are told by the Support Team to rebuild their PS4 database, the customer often won't come back. The desired outcome appears to be to close the Support ticket - and this approach works most of the time, and the ticket gets closed. But this is not because the advice worked... it's because the customer:

    - knows the advice is not very good, and just gives up on TSW
    - doesn't know how to defrag their hard disk, and just gives up on TSW
    - decides not to bother, even though they do know how to defrag, and just gives up on TSW
    - carries out the defrag, which has no effect, and just gives up on TSW

    But the Support team have a closed ticket, and that is all that seems to count. It's a massive process failure.
     
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  36. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Member

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    Sounds interesting! Past or future tense I wonder.. Im hoping that an UE upgrade might be the gem in this..
     
  37. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Active Member

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    I won't be using the Support system to report bugs, because I do not believe for one second that they are processed properly... but that is just me (and I am not advising other people to not use this process - as this is the formal process). But there are some interesting issues here... such as...

    Why are 75% of reports not bugs.....? Have you done anything proactive to reduce this overhead? Have you analysed the "not bug" reports? Have you defined what a bug is, and told your customers?

    Have you produced an online template to fill in, that includes the key information that you need?

    I totally understand that the reports you get from PC users, that have millions of combos of setup, could often not relate to bugs at all. So, for PC users, have you made an online tool available to analyse a user's PC system performance and produce the report/diag details you need - or that outputs advice on likely TSW performance? Maybe you could make such a tool available prior to a customer purchasing TSW....?

    If you do get a bug report, which contains some very useful information, but can be rejected for any one of 100 reasons (because the submission failed some not relevant requirement that you have imposed), what do you do with those reports? Do they just get ticket-closed and binned, for example? Does anyone ever get to see what was written in the bug report?

    In short - have you created a set of reporting requirements that:

    a) genuinely helps you to resolve bugs, or,
    b) is a system that creates a barrier to bug reporting, that can't be easily overcome by the customer, but does make it easier for the Support Team to close the ticket and add to their total productivity stats?

    Are you sure which of the above descriptions is more true.....?

    As an aside: Do you have any evidence at all that a defrag of a PS4 ever helps a customer? Even just one customer? Have you ever looked at active feedback to this kind of advice, and measured the success rate?
     
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  38. Jez

    Jez Active Member

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    An interesting word choice. I'd swap it with "unacceptable".

    Where is the evidence to back-up such a statement? I'd say that is not my recent experience and reading some other comments on here it's far from rare.

    None of which should have to be done at all. Console players are simply not going to put up with that.

    Honestly, I'd be embarrassed to make such a public statement about a company I worked for. You can't run a business that depends on customers feeling sorry for you.
     
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  39. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Active Member

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    So... what you need is some process that helps manage version control, combined with a process for testing. And to apply these processes before you release new and/or revised software. Your version control might include an element of impact analysis. So, for example, if you change some global feature, such as... gravity... then you should ask yourself - how far will this impact on the simulation modules? And then you should ask the rest of the team.... and then, like in Portal*, the testing should begin, for Science...!

    Things like the raining through the station roof did not need to be fixed after the release. They should have been found in testing, before the release. You might already have testing processes. So, maybe you need another process to check that the test processes are working? You could do a mini Gateway Review...

    My personal expertise is in safety critical infrastructure, where the goal is that nothing ever goes wrong, ever. Nobody should die, etc. (That should make a certain Mr Tiger laugh...). Obviously TSW doesn't need to be tested to this extent, but when you know that you have cut up a module, like "Change at Jamaica", the least that you could do is get somebody to run through it once, on the final build version, before publishing? Some of the modules in TSW crash, on a PS4, before they are even fully initialised, as with F1-03 on NEC (I reckon that was due to change in a global value - possibly the width of the tracks....)..

    Although I appreciate your honesty, with regard to what it is like to produce TSW, and the problems that you go through..., much of it could be avoided if Dovetail took a more professional approach.

    *One thing that I would heartily recommend to any amateur game developer would be to get a copy of Portal and Portal 2, and play through these games with the developer commentary on. You have to remember that Portal was made with a tiny budget (based on the student project Narbacular Drop) - when you understand the lengths to which these games were tested, before release, you'll understand how to make a game that works properly (I am mostly thinking about the TSW User Interface, as I write that, not the core simulation...).
     
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  40. dunkrez

    dunkrez Member

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    This reply is very much appreciated, and considered, thank you Dmitri :)

    However, I bought every DLC available for TSW and in the end decided to give TS2019 a go (I've probably spent £500+ on various TS2019 add ons for it in the past week alone ha - check my steam profile 'dunkrez' or purchases in your store). I wish I'd tried TS2019 first as I feel I wasted all of my money on TSW for the ps4. I'd love a credit for TSW against TS2019, I think that would make me a happy customer.

    At the end of the day, you guys are great at what you do (and I know you can provide multicore cpu support and DX12 for TS2019 - it's likely just cost/resources holding it back). I'll happily keep throwing money at TS as it's absolutely brilliant!

    Just strive for the best that you can all do. There is a huge community that loves what you produce <3 :)
     
  41. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    As I said there are issues that cannot be resolved easily and require a disproportional amount of time to resolve. I gave examples of such issues. Other than that, we do release regular patches addressing issues. You can see the long for PlayStation here: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-playstation-updates.15673/#post-95412. There have been nine PS4 patches since May this year, varying from minor to major updates.

    I agree that reinstalling the game is not always the best solution, but we do have cases when reinstalling and defragmenting did help. I also believe that it is important to understand from the beginning the nature of the issue, meaning that something like a failing service should be checked on the go without the need for the user to perform any actions. We will take steps to improve in that area.
     
  42. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    Whether reinstalling helps or not depends on the nature of the problem, and we do have cases when that helped resolve the issue at hand, however I agree that it cannot be used as a universal solution. I do not, however, have evidence that this solution is offered to all users who reached to us via the support system to report a bug or an issue.
     
  43. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    That is a lot of questions to answer, so in short - our current system is more than enough to process the current inflow of reports, however, measures can be taken to improve the way these reports are processed. Any additional information is always helpful, especially if it describes the nature of the issue in detail and the way we can replicate it. With the current rates of reports, I don't see a reason to introduce any new systems, would rather focus on improving current ones.
     
  44. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    I apologize for my word choice, this is due to my limited vocabulary (I'm not a native English speaker). We do not need customers to feel sorry for us, my point was to simply indicate that there is no evil plan to make our players feel unappreciated, our devs work hard and are as passionate about the hobby as you are.

    If you believe that software breaking is unacceptable, then you may find the whole software market rather disappointing. Whether console players are going to put up with that or not, I will leave that to your own judgment - you did not provide the evidence to back up your statement.
     
  45. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    I agree that things like raining through the station roof are unpleasant at the very least, however, they do not directly affect train simulation. Train simulation works as intended, to which you rightfully so gave credit in some of your posts.

    I do not have information about the nature of the issue with NEC services, but I would like to note that they were fixed in the shortest possible time, which indicates that issues with core game functions and simulation are given a priority.

    I still agree with you that there is room for improvement, though, when it comes to processing reports.
     
  46. Jez

    Jez Active Member

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    I've already found the software market disappointing and DTG are leading the field.
     
  47. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Active Member

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    Yes - a lot of questions from me - they don't literally need answering here and now - they are for you to think about, as suggestions, really.

    Yes, I agree, you should focus on improving your current Support system. As part of this, you might like to look at this thread:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/nec-unable-to-start-service.18269/

    The OP in the above thread reported something that was obviously a TSW issue, and they were told to rebuild their PS4 database and reinstall their software. That was last week. Unless the fix appearing today (to NEC F01-3), was turned around based on this report, with incredible speed (less than seven days), then it looks like your Support Team couldn't even be bothered to check the bugs and issue list, if such a list actually exists, before subjecting this customer to a completely pointless inconvenience.

    NB: Today's patch to fix NEC F01-3 has worked - I just tested it. Thanks!
     
  48. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    I am sorry to hear you did not enjoy Train Sim World that much, but I'm happy to know that TS19 turned out to be your cup of tea. We are not planning to stop the support for TS19, so many things, including DX12, are on the table.
     
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  49. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    This thread is now closed.
     
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