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Another Vote!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ProfCreeptonius, Sep 18, 2018.

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  1. Multiplayer

    5 vote(s)
    4.6%
  2. Scenario/Route Editor

    44 vote(s)
    40.4%
  3. A new loco DLC

    6 vote(s)
    5.5%
  4. A new route DLC

    11 vote(s)
    10.1%
  5. Bugfixes

    36 vote(s)
    33.0%
  6. Performance improvements

    7 vote(s)
    6.4%
  1. ProfCreeptonius

    ProfCreeptonius Well-Known Member

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    Hi folks!

    I've just started evaluating my previous vote - really interesting result I must say. I'll soon upload the graphs.
    Time for another vote!

    The question this time is:
    Which of the given options would you pick to be implemented next into TSW?

    I'm really interested! Please vote honestly.

    Cheers,
    Prof!
     
  2. Alex01

    Alex01 Active Member

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    bugfixes first
     
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  3. MCGermanyFan

    MCGermanyFan Well-Known Member

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    Nobody needs that vote because most of these things will happen.
     
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  4. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    The bugfixes may take a long time.
     
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  5. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    MCGermanyFan why are you trying to close down another thread? ProfCreeptonius wasn’t suggesting that any or all of these wouldn’t be done. He asked what should be done NEXT, in other words what do people think is a priority. Perhaps the Prof could add an ‘Everything is just fine’ option so you and like minded people could have your say.

    It may be early days on voting but the fact that 9 out of 10 voters think that either adding promised features or fixing existing bugs is more of a priority than rolling out new DLC is a pretty overwhelming message to DTG.

    With TSxxxx DTG did get the reputation of rolling out DLCs with bugs in and not fixing them. That made people unhappy. TSW is an opportunity for them to show that is no longer a valid criticism. Rolling out DLCs and just mounting up an increasing bug list is not going to help this product.

    On the editor (and remember DTG have promised that) these votes might indicate that people aren’t very interested in new DLC - or the game itself - until that promise is kept.
     
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  6. ProfCreeptonius

    ProfCreeptonius Well-Known Member

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    MCGermanyFan rest assured I have my reasons for asking.
    Medellinexpat Thank you so much! You illustrated very nicely some of my main thoughts.
    As for the rest, just enjoy watching the numbers rise

    Cheers,
    Prof
     
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  7. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Anthony Pecoraro ’the bug fixes may take a long time’

    That may be true. What I think is important is whether the bugs are isolated to the DLC ~ for example the incorrect placement of an object or a coding error in a single scenario ~ or something more systemic, say some form of memory error that applies to not only that specific DLC but may apply to other DLCs going forward on one or more of the platforms.

    If what people are seeing is the latter case (and with DTG asking for console serial numbers that looks likely) releasing more DLCs before the problem is identified and resolved increases the likelihood people will have issues with the next new DLC and the one after that.

    Now all bugs need fixing but if there’s a wider unresolved issue releasing new DLCs that may also be impacted in the interim is a little cynical.
     
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  8. ProfCreeptonius

    ProfCreeptonius Well-Known Member

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    Anthony Pecoraro I just asked for what you'd like the most from feel.
    It's nice to think about the options, but really, vote for what your heart desires.

    Cheers,
    Prof.
     
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  9. keksman

    keksman Active Member

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    I would pick anything out of this list except the dlc's. (Had enough of these)
    There hasnt been any news for the PC version in months while the PS4/Xbox version both got updates...
     
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  10. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    The Scenario/Route Editor is/should be the number one priority right now to keep users attracted to Train Sim World and should be the next release before any more DLC.

    The game can get boring very quickly once you’ve completed all (and very few) scenarios supplied by DTG and service mode gets repetitive after a while.

    One of the main reasons TS has been successful for all these years is the community submissions and work as well as third party support too.

    TSW audience should rapidly grow once this happens and this is probably one of the most important features that the game needs right now.
     
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  11. Yerolo

    Yerolo Active Member

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    The Scenario/Route Editor & Content Creation Tools should def be their #1 priority at this point. Game has been out 18mths so it feels long overdue, this will form the backbone of TSW long term and needs to be out there asap
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
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  12. NJT Railfan

    NJT Railfan Active Member

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    I agreed, I want more routes from other people so Dovetail doesn't have to do all of them.
     
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  13. Juan Manuel Luengo

    Juan Manuel Luengo Member

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    ;)
     
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  14. davejc64

    davejc64 Active Member

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    Bug fixes should happen as a matter of course, somthing that should be done anyway and not prevent other things form being done..
     
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  15. iAspex

    iAspex Active Member

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    Agreed, bugs should’ve been fixed before release anyway.
     
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  16. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    The important thing is to keep people interested in TSW as well as grow its market. There's no point pumping out new DLC unless sufficient people are willing to buy it at a price that's profitable to DTG or at least covers its costs. Both bug fixes and performance improvements are a continuing process and DTG has to believe that it's worth their while to devote resources to those areas. I feel it's unlikely that multiplayer will appear before utiliation of TSW is at least triple its existing size.

    A Scenario/Route Editor allows users to tweak existing DLC to make it more interesing. It also allows third parties to create new DLC that expand the range of DLC and almost certainly makes a bit of additional money for DTG as well.
     
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  17. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    SamYeager270 on the Scenario/Route Editor is that what third parties will use to create content like new locos and routes? Genuine question. I would have thought that they potentially would have access to the same tools DTG have and must be using now. So bottom line do third party developers rely on getting the Scenario/Route Editor that we, as retail customers, are waiting for?

    Having said that I’m not convinced that third party developers (other than those working for DTG on a contracting basis) do have the tools at the moment. There would also be a significant delay between the tools being made available and new content appearing.

    I’m also not sure that it’s absolutely clear that DTG will want commercial third parties building content. I realize that’s going to be a thought others won’t like. Personally I think that DTG may want to provide all of the content for TSW. They may not build it themselves - they may farm out the work to commercial game builders - but I think they may want everything DTG labeled.

    So, linking the availability of the editor to Retail clients with the emergence of third party content, may be flawed. If nothing else I don’t think a third party developer can just get the editor and then start selling content. TSW branding belongs to DTG and therefore the third party would need a license. How DTG go about licensing, and the cost of it, will have as much of not more to do with how much third party content there is as any editor tool availability.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
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  18. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    Well to me it makes perfect sense that DTG wouldn't want to expose their proprietary code to third party developers (3PD) in general any more than retail users. AIUI DTG are using the standard UE4 editor along with standard graphical tools against a customised version of UE4 but that requires access to their proprietary code.

    I never said otherwise.

    My impression is that DTG very much do want 3PD to build content however where that content is sold DTG will want a proportion of the selling price. I'm not a developer so I don't know whether that's the case for existing TSxx content or not but I'm sure DTG made sure of that for TSW. Now I'm just a punter here with no special access to DTG so perhaps I'm talking complete rubbish but what I laid out earlier seems to tie in with comments both written and verbal that DTG have made in the past on Steam, Twitch, their website and here.
     
  19. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    SamYeager270 if you are correct that DTG won’t share the proprietary code with third party developers (even licensed and with an NDA in place) then I would have thought third party developers are going to be at a disadvantage. Isn’t it reasonable to presume that the editor will at best be some sort of subset of the full tools?

    On DTG wanting 3PDs involved on TSW I would argue that DTG have been noticeably absent in saying that their arms are open in welcome. I’ve not seen any 3PDs making any indication that they are ramping up either. Now, I’ve had responses in the past that 3PDs haven’t said anything because any NDA would preclude it. Personally I doubt that.

    I know that mentioning FSW on here instantly gets downvotes but wasn’t one of the complaints of that user community that one of the core reasons for failure was DTG not engaging with 3PDs? TSW may be different, or not.
     
  20. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    DTG have been incredibly quiet about the development of their editor and have shown no sign of progress or even (photographic) evidence that the editor is in development. How hard must it be to attach a screenshot into an article or something?

    Not very encouraging to users or third party developers wanting to develop their own products/routes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
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  21. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn't be difficult for someone with the knowlege/will to access the source code of TSW. They could even extract the assets (buildings, locomotives etc) and use them in other games. If someone did do that, then legal recourse would be availble to DTG. So I honestly don't buy that as a reason the editor hasn't shown up.

    The next potential reason is that DTG have made changes to the UE4 tools, and therefor need permission from Epic to distribute them. If Epic are saying 'no', then DTG are in a very poor position to negotiate. It would be a huge fail on DTG's part if they hadn't agree the licence to distribute before development got underway, as even if the licence limited the flexibility of the tools, at least they'd have some tools to release!

    It may also be as Medellinexpat suggests, DTG want to keep all development in-house. If DTG have crunched the numbers and figured out that long term it's more profitable to develop everything in house, with the assistance of games studios like Gameshastra, then that's what DTG will do. This could also be as a result of Epic refusing DTG a licence to distribute the tools. It would also be in DTG's interest to keep the community hanging on for the tools until TSW is sufficiently established. At present, if DTG announced that there would be no tools and all DLC would all be created in-house, TSW would collapse overnight.

    The 'official' reason is that 'the tools are not ready'. So one may ask why? They are clearly ready enough for DTG to use them, and they've had 18 months to further develop them. In fact, a year or so ago DTG were saying that we'd have them for Christmas 2017. 9 months later and we still don't know anything more than we did then.

    From my perspective as a games developer, the way DTG are behaving regarding the tools is very dubious indeed.

    You only have to look at a game like Bus Simulator to see something is seriously wrong with TSW. Bus Simulator has been developed by a much smaller studio using the same engine (UE4), yet on release it had editors/tools and multiplayer.
     
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  22. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Guest

    However now there will be no news.
    On October 11th, TS64 Bit will be released. Now this is the main topic.
    Dtg is phenomenal, its make self-competition.
     
  23. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Third parties will be able to make content for TSW. We will have access to the same tools that they use.
     
  24. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Anthony Pecoraro I guess that’s excellent news that you are confirming that we’re all going to have access to the same tools as the developers.

    The only thing that’s confusing me is that if we’re getting the exact same tools that the dev team is and has been using why don’t DTG just release the editor? Presumably they need to pack it up in some way, but if it’s same tools it’s not as if they have to make changes. So where’s the hold up?
     
  25. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    They need to make them as good as possible and I assume as user friendly as possible.
     
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  26. PlatChap

    PlatChap Well-Known Member

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    I'm gonna cast my vote for a scenario/route editor. I will attach to that, a wish for steam workshop integration as well. At the very least, the editor would bring me back into the game for more than just playing the scenarios of new DLC releases.
     
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  27. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Anthony Pecoraro isn’t the arguement that if they are working to make them as good and user friendly as possible they aren’t the same tools as the developers are using. It’s one or the other. The self same tools or something modified to be more end user friendly? Is the suggestion that the developer tools aren’t good enough for end users and need improving?
     
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  28. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I’m going by what I heard from Discord.
     
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  29. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Anthony Pecoraro fair enough. Who and when, and if (hopefully) it’s someone from DTG what’s their objection to stating the same thing on this, their forum? Is there some reason it can be shared on Discord and not elsewhere?
     
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  30. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Several devs are in Discord, and not many staff watch the forums I guess.
     
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  31. Yerolo

    Yerolo Active Member

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    Until you see any official announcement made either here or on the official TSW site, take whatever you see on discord or other social media channels with a grain of salt.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
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  32. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    That makes no sense. They announce things on Facebook and Twitter all the time.
     
  33. Yerolo

    Yerolo Active Member

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    OK, I'll clarify. If a dev says something on discord, twitter etc and it is immediately followed up with a news story/announcement...then ok, but seeing something said 3-6mths ago and nothing since...something has obviously changed. So until I see an official announcement on the official site, I take news from other sources with a grain of salt.
     
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  34. iAspex

    iAspex Active Member

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    They have confirmed it's coming, there's not much else they can really do. If you want to see some screenshots of it, look up "UE4 Editor".
     
  35. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    They could provide a list of features, or a list of variations compared to the standard UE4 editor.

    They could make an Alpha version availble to existing 3rd Party Developers, so they can implement their feedback as well as start getting 3rd Parties up to speed with the tools.

    They could ask the community for their input with regards to what they would like to be able to do with the editor/tools.

    There's plenty they could do, but it's the usual tumbleweed, which is not a good sign.
     
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  36. Lombra

    Lombra Member

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    I'm sure there actually is more work to do on the editor before it can be published, but I also think they want to make more in house routes before giving potential sales away to third parties. I'm assuming routes are fairly profitable, judging by the TS library of routes and the rate of production of TSW routes. Not to mention an editor does nothing for console profits.
     
  37. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    You do appear to have misinterpreted what Anthony Pecoraro said.

    I know Matt's mentioned on one of the Twitch streams that they wanted to make the tool(s) more user friendly although no detail was given about what that might involve. As mentioned above we will not be getting the exact same tools since that would mean we and 3PDs would need access to DTG's proprietary code.

    I fully support you and others putting pressure on DTG to get a move on or at least giving us more detail about progress and the timescales for release but can we please get away from this idea that it will be the exact same tools?
     
  38. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I mean the same route and scenario and maybe even SimuGraph.
     
  39. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    SamYeager270 rather I think it is you who seems to be confused. I certainly do not believe that it will be the exact same set of tools. Look at my earlier response to you ‘Isn’t is reasonable to believe that at best some sort of subset of the full tools’. Note that ‘at best’. That’s me trying to be polite.

    My further posts, in response to those who seem able to ‘confirm’ that it is going to be the same tools as the developers was that a) that’s nice if it was true b) where’s the proof and c) and how does that explain these contradictory points.

    If you look at the threads those who have doubts about the editor discuss what they see. The optimists tend to state certainties ‘it is going to happen’, ‘we don’t need to discuss this’, ‘it will be the same tools’ but without any real proof.

    I’d love Editor to be as full as it could be and I’d like it to be soon. In many ways I’d like to be wrong about this and I’m sure others who have concerns feel exactly the same way.

    However what I’d like to see from one of the optimists is a simple argument over a key point like @Digital Draftsman’s point about the timeline.

    And in the background @ProfCreeptonius’ excellent poll keeps chugging away showing the the vast majority of players are more keen to have this editor fixed than any other issue. Add in bug fixes, and even with the console votes (who should have less interest in the editor) nearly 8 out of 10 want these things fixed rather than seeing new content. Despite that, and DTG’s posting in other threads they say nothing here. The editor seems to be the proverbial third-rail to them.
     
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  40. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I know that there is some sort of technical issue that is causing them to not be able to release it yet.
     
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  41. ragn05

    ragn05 Active Member

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    the vote are close?
     

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