But of course you have to remember that the complexity of the prototype differs as well. And I say you can draw a line with regards to what stuff you'll bother simulating and what stuff you won't.
The point is that the opinion of what should be implemented and what shouldn't be changes over time and between releases. The Kuju stock in Train Simulator only had one headlight setting, no AWS self-test sequence, no DVD, and one passenger view per train, and that was the standard for a number of years. Around 2013, DTG's stock got a bit more complex in Train Simulator. The Class 395 had a very good passenger view, with some advanced functions, but had glaring omissions such as no performance differences between AC and DC. Nowadays DTG don't really make stock for TS anymore, but trains such as the Class 390, 350, 323 and 47 are all slightly more advanced than the 395 but again have major issues. And as with most DTG trains in TS (and to a slightly lesser extent in TSW) the sounds for each are awful.
I'm saying that if a firm line is set, in a few years the content they'll be making will be completely inadequate, as it was with their content in TS which have only recently started to get features that have been standard in third party content for ten years or more.
You make two incorrect assumptions; that such a line would be unchangeable, and that the level of detail from the average piece of content will always increase.
If DT are testing the water, for 'revamping' routes, London to Brighton would be a fantastic route to do... I mean even years later I really enjoy it and it could be hands down one of the best routes around given the right attention. It certainly was the best route around when it come out... Whilst on the subject of the Southern Region, East Coastway could benefit with having the Electrostar on the route replaced with the updated model from London Commuter.
I would love to work on an East Coastway extension that takes it all the way to Ashford International with the Marshlink line, plus West St Leonards and Dungeness power station. It would be set in the same time period as the original one as this provides a lot of variety, but would come with more variants of the 377 and all four variants of the 171, with the 375 layering in for Southeastern services between Ore and West St Leonards, and the 395 running on a railtour between Hastings and Eastbourne. I'd also spend the time to fix the 313 and improve the 66 in some way, although I assume this would just be sounds. The level of detail from the average DLC should always increase. In TS, when it comes to third party content, it does. The AP PEP packs are great, but not as detailed as their 411 pack, and even that is dwarfed by the brilliant Devmares CC40100. Generally it has increased in TSW, but crucially it has not developed at the rate it should have done. The complexity we have now should have been in the game five years ago, and the Goblin line from what I've seen is the only DTG route that has scenery that equals CSX Heavy Haul in years.
Hmmm. I don't think that's necessarily a reasonable assumption. It's not like as time progresses it gets easier and easier to make detailed locos. In addition you appear to be ignoring that the level of complexity of the real-life locos will vary as well. Hmmm. I'm not sure that's actually the case. Some creators definitely are producing more detailed content than they did in the past. But others have generally stuck to the same level of detail.
The peak is always increasing. Developers for TS who have not upped their game (DTG) are metaphorically left in the dust and not respected as much, or at all. In TS the only reason to buy a train by DTG for those who really care about DLC quality is to get an enhancement pack for it afterwards - I can count all of the good DTG TS locos on one hand, and all of them are still majorly flawed in one or more ways. Just Trains used to release utter LOVE as well, but in the past few years they've got much better, but the assumption by those who exclusively play TSW that they are magical developers from heaven is just wrong - their Voyager pack is horribly dated, the Meridian is still broken, the Underground content is a rip-off, and the older routes are terribly built. Well yes, you can't make a complicated loco out of something that isn't in real life, but most if not all trains in TS and TSW have things missed out that can be added or improved. The AP 321 is alright, but could have a passenger view added, and compatibility with other EMUs which it currently can't work with in the game.
Indeed who can forget Edinburgh to Dundee with its Kuju assets and Class 166 working the local services. Think I still have it on DVD-ROM somewhere!
They relied on the 166 a lot in the early days. There was a Northern one and an awful fictional Marsdonshire Railways one, even though I do like the route itself.
This is absolute nonsense. One look at the British steam loco third-party scene is enough to show that developers who are nowhere near the quality of the peak developers in the field still get sales and "respect". And now you're acting like everyone in the TSC community agrees with your views on JT. I note that neither of those things are "complexity"...
I'm not asking for people's opinions. The JT Voyager has its origins in the Rail Simulator day and looks it, plus has some very strange behaviour with the tilting. The Dovetail one looks much better but has problems of its own. The textures are also awful. The Meridian is still broken. It had a major update early in its life but the TMS screen still doesn't show 8 or 9 car single sets correctly, and the throttle is still not set up properly. To have a functioning Metropolitan Line you need to pay at least £50, which is simply unacceptable. And the older routes are horribly built, with unacceptable trackwork, very poor scenery and a reliance on default Kuju and Rail Simulator stock. You are allowed to enjoy the content, and for some if it I do, but just because it can be fun doesn't mean it's not bad. As for the other issues, I'm clearly not swaying you and I don't have enough time to bother to argue them.
I was lucky enough to pick up the route and S7+1 stock in a bundle but I refuse to pay over again for the S8 too, particularly as the route itself can be a bit buggy and liable to crash. And while we laud JT as the heroes of the hour in TSW, let’s not forget a fair bit of their other TSC content seems to rely on the purchase of additional rolling stock to run the scenarios.
The scenario requirements are an issue without a doubt, even though the routes themselves are much better. AP's Wherry Lines V1 used its own 37 based on the Settle to Carlisle one, which was one of the requirements for the route as well. IIRC the new V2 version requires the AP Class 37 pack separately to run the scenarios, but I can't remember whether or not the Settle-based 37 and scenarios are still included.
Your opinion isn't relevant here. You were making statements as though they were shared my the whole TSC community.
Using your own logic, that means your opinion isn't relevant either, as it's YOUR opinion, and not the option of a certain community........
Again, I'm not really bothered what the general consensus is. I have explained above what the issues with the content in particular. These issues are still issues no matter who is playing it. If you're playing with a nine coach Class 222 or I am, it'll show seven coaches on the TMS screen for both of us.
My point was that Doomotron claimed that standards in TSC third-party content are ever rising because the TSC community does not accept subpar content. They have failed to provide any evidence for this.
The amount of people that defend HIS and DTM shows that (At least on the US side) People are so starved for content, they'll take half baked content over no content or good content.
I think your signature reference is pointed at me? Here's my POV. Many are judging content based on the dev. I have the right to say I really enjoyed HIS' detailed routes, as you can see in my screenshots. Milepost released Tennessee Pass, which is pretty bare and boring in most places (and is an old freeware route too, which I happen to have the RWA extended version). Nobody complained - if the same route got released by Gary, there'd been a shxtstorm. That's why most of the criticism can be dismissed as being personal grudge. The FRE Clio Trestle was being criticized - yes the paint at the given era was different - though no photo that is not heavily weathered shows the old colour. I offered a patch - nobody was interested. That means it was more important for those to point out errors than to have it fixed. Everyone is free to enjoy what gives them happiness. HIS stuff works for me - that doesn't mean I'm bullying anyone to buy it. It's your own choice as it is your game. A game - that's what it is. Nothing more. DTM is stuck twenty years in the past in terms of quality - and I have been heavily criticising him, even exposing wrong data structure, silly light flares, and corrupt cab occlusion files. But no one else does these locos. So, better these than none. Simple as that. Modding is easy and the stock is bundled with the route, so I'm less critical than with a single loco purchase. I do not like this "anyone supporting them is damaging the community" nonsense. Free market, take it or leave it. It's a game, not politics.
No, it relates to the ****storm that was the FREC threads. Also it isn't just HIS's routes that are a problem, but there seems to be a tread of just released as much as he can on TSC, between the routes, scenario packs, and retro packs, it continues into a trend of quantity over quality. Recently on the TSC discord, someone showed a bunch of DTM GP30's from long ago that were lost. Which in some way were better looking that what he put out on steam. (Like the SPGP30's vs the Marketplace ones) and it just makes me annoyed that these devs CAN do better, HAVE done better, but they don't do it..... I do agree that there is places where Milepost defiantly could of done better with Tennessee Pass, especially that one industry near Leadville. The difference is that Jonathan Lewis doesn't bite back when criticism gets thrown his way, I never seen him go after people for expressing their feelings for his stuff. The same can't be said for Gary, or a handful of those who follow his stuff heavily, which is why he gets called out ALOT more when one of his routes gets released. You point out an error on an HIS route, you get called out or called a rivet counter or an argument ensues, you point out an error on a Milepost route, either it gets fixed or nothing happens. On the other side of the spectrum, Anthony Wood of Searchlight Simulations can also be a jerk as well, but since SS's stuff is usually quality, that gets overlooked. The US side of 3rd Party content on TSC is such a mess.....
Agreed - but then I admire the stuff that is available. DieselWorkshop has done fantastic locos - but you have to understand that it's a hobbyists' game. You can change stuff and adapt it to your liking. Else do not buy DTG games! If price is too high - be sure it will be on sale someday. I'm buying a DLC, and not a personal relation with a dev. I had contact with Michael Stephan, who is a decent guy and listens to your queries, often reacting quickly with patches. Without Rick Grout, we'd have almost nothing on the US side. Also Gary has supplied us with hundreds of free Workshop scenarios. If some of them don't like criticism, hell, so be it. I judge the DLC not the author. I'm listening to Black Metal made by a convicted murderer from Norway - still I enjoy his strange music no matter what his personal attitude might be.
Which is why I think the NYC Boston & Albany Route wasn't hit as hard with critics over the DTM FA and the issues with the DW RS-3. Since you could get it for $26.99 USD at launch, and that was the lowest price it was ever at till the Spring Sale last month. (Vs Feather River Canyon Enhanced which wasn't discounted as much even with the previous owners discount) Something that TSW is sort of seeing with the LIRR 2.0 route at the moment. (Though those thinking it should be free are out of their minds)
Nobody can demand something for free - if it comes for free I'm thankful, if not, then I'll decide on what price I'm willing to pay. Personally, I'm a mountain railroader, stuff like LIRR is boring and repetitive to me, the added branch line won't make it much different, nothing to look at scenery wise. But, that's just me. Stuff like the Bergen County Line by Minerman146, an 8-year project, is just out of this world and something that will never come to TSW. A route for everyone. I have not yet been able to fully explore it.
And my point was that you can't claim that another forum members view is worthless and non relevant because it's their own personal view, then expect everyone to believe that your personal view on the same subject is totally relevant to the conversation between the two of you, logic is a cruel thing when it turns round and punches one in the face.........
Yep I did, because your point was completely pointless, because like many things being argued about in this forum, this is only a piece of software code, and in the grand scheme of things in life is totally pointless, just like your point in the first place........
Thought that would be rather obvious considering the base subject, the reason these forums even exist, you know the love of railways and trains.........
Because it's a piece of software code, my love of railways and trains was around long before the first railway SIM, and if tomorrow they all disappear it will still be the same. Every bloody argument and massive drama in this forum is completely pointless in the context of life and everything else in it, the bottom line that nobody can ever argue with is it is simply a piece of software code nothing less, nothing more.........
Yes would you guys quit the catfight or take it to a schoolyard somewhere. Getting on my last nerve and I'd like to read the interesting parts of this thread.
Indeed, as the OP I second (or should that be first!) the motion. if you want to bicker, please take it to PM's/Conversations.
Thought the same as soon as I saw insults at peoples' intelligence start getting thrown about when Fife Circle released to be honest. A large difference between having passion for something and then overdoing it.
It seems like though, LIRR 2.0 has gotten people talking about extensions now for existing routes.....
kinda bound to, DTG have been very reluctant to extend routes when people have enquired before, now they have essentially a price bracket for them aswell, gone from a near no to this is what we have for sale.
