Arosa Mountain Comparison

Discussion in 'PlayStation Discussion' started by Sparmi, Mar 29, 2021.

  1. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    Before to the release of the Arosa Line, there was a discussion about the representation of the mountains and the distant scenery (and about trees). Because I also like the new Flight Simulator 2020, I just had the idea to search for TSW routes on the FS world map and finally found Arosa and its lake. It is fair to say that photogrammetry was used for the FS 2020 map and the mountains were created by using high resolution satellite data. It's also showcase what is graphically possible nowadays.

    Arosa Mountains Comparison.jpg
     
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  2. borg#1850

    borg#1850 Well-Known Member

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    Super backdrop in FS. I have a railway program "Railway 32" by Mark Goodspeed which is a screen saver / application window. That backdrop would be really good in or any backdrops like it. I have chosen a Switzerland module below.
    upload_2021-3-29_10-23-11.png
     
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  3. ildario77

    ildario77 Well-Known Member

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    If you think that's rubbish, take a look at the half-loaded mountains in the background... Is this a 2021 game? Seriously? Come on...

    Schermata 2021-03-29 alle 12.08.06.png
     
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  4. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    ...it's because of the limited drawing distance on current consoles. According to the last live stream, it is noted and will be fixed. May be this comparison with FS 2020 is inspiring and pushes the limits of what is feasible in a new direction! ;)
     
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  5. kevin.charb81

    kevin.charb81 Well-Known Member

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    Without the snow it looks like a giant stack of potatoes...ridiculous
     
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  6. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    I’m now going to cry in a corner :( the scenery looks terrible on tsw and ts
     
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  7. ildario77

    ildario77 Well-Known Member

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    I played last night, Chur-Arosa with autumn mist (maybe the best way to hide this eyesore) and Arosa-Chur with snow and clear skies. Well, the mountains look always bad, but I can live with it. The problem is the one I showed in the other post, completely unacceptable, and you can't ignore it while approaching Chur. I hope they really plan to fix it. Terrible...
     
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  8. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    This is an issue that is seperate to the other scenery concerns, and the mountains will be receiving a fix.
     
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  9. RailRoadEngineer

    RailRoadEngineer Member

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    Are these DLC released as beta for us?
     
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  10. mdh757

    mdh757 Member

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    FS 2020 doesn't have to work on an original PS4/Xbox 1. If it did then they would have to make some serious cut backs to improve perfomance too.
     
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    FS can expend memory and GPU power on distant scenery because it needn't worry about close up scenery.
     
  12. schorni

    schorni Well-Known Member

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    Is almost any DLC for the TSW.
     
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  13. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    ...the close up scenery in FS 2020 is often generated with AI algorithms, by using graphic presets such as houses and vegetation. Only big cities, like London or New York, are up to 50% recreated from photogrammetry data. Of course it looks overwhelming from the air, but when you are close to the ground it is less effective and if the internet connection is cut, you only get lower resolution standard graphics.
     
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  14. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    And don't forget, FS2020 is a maybe 100Mio$ (i think it is way more) project, TSW is not :) As i said somewhere else, you basically can have better mountains on Aros in TSW but it would need Rivet to work 2 Years more on that route (that is not economical at the end for anyone). And it would again not run on original PS4 and XBox One because of memory limits.
     
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  15. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    I would be very interested in what consumes so much memory in consoles. There are games going to many more objects and the console can handle it without any problems. I played Horizon zero dawn, Uncharted and more. All in 4k HDR. What's different about TSW? What takes so much computing power?
     
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  16. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    They all got about 1 year or more of optimization by about hundrets of people working on it. That is not comparable to TSW in any sort. As i said, it is possible to achieve a way better distant scenery with alot of more work involved into the production. But that is nothing that you want as a customer because you would need to pay alot more for it. Most customers want it cheap and so they get cheap. Simple calculation stuff :)
     
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  17. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    If I understand correctly, the whole optimization is a simplification of the calculation in the game program itself. Thank you for your interesting insight into the memory problem.
     
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  18. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Optimisation is a huge task at all resorts in a game. And it is extremely gameplay dependet. I playd all the AAA titles on PS4, i know how it is made and what are the downsides and positives of it. I played Uncharted 4 again only to analyze how it is made visually. And the more you look at that, the more you get the idea and how simple it is made at least. But that "simple" is not THAT simple.

    I know the new Cane Creek shots were postet here and there and lots of you would think: that's how Arosa should look like. I did the same as i was running that route first time here. BUT this technique is not suitable for Arosa. Arosa needs a way different and more "expensive" approach for beiing able to show us the nice distant Alps. It would need a technique that involves exporting terrain data, getting it into a programm like WorldMachine to apply texturing from real world data, then get it back into UE4 with these new textures applied. That sounds easy, but is not. I made this (without the texture part) for a little test and it took me 3 weeks for the process of export-edit-import. And that was only a 4x16km² terrain. Arosa has about 300 times that terrain data. Now do the calculation and add texturing for each set of 16km² part. I presume a workload of 1-2 years for that for 1 men. Lets say Rivet can achieve that with 4 People, it would already take tooo much time for being economical.
     
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  19. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate the input Maik, the takeaway I get from it is TSW looks like trash and always will be, but like I said, I do appreciate the above post, quite insightful.

    its annoying because Unreal seemingly can do so much more - so when we were told years ago about a unreal train sim the imagination wondered, when in reality it doesnt even surpass TS1 in some areas. its sad but I guess it is a economic constraint as much as a talent constraint.
     
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  20. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    I would not say that. It depends on who is making a route. Skyhook takes the time. No idea how they can do that, but they do it. Whe i come to route building i will also take my time, but there is a limit, and the limit is as always time==money. Same counts for DTG. They have lots of employees to pay each month. They can't put in more time than they can pay for. Rivet seems the same. They do what they can do. It is not easy to do stuff for a train simulator when you as dev have high needs to yourself but not the time and money to do it. I know what i'm talking about. I'm doing this for 10 years now. And TSW is not the thing were you get rich with. More the other way when you are just a tiny team like mine. So i alredy think about if it is a good idea to do route bulding at all. I want to do it, but i need more money to do it as i have and can bring it with it. Unfortunately a true fact.
     
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  21. schorni

    schorni Well-Known Member

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    Would it be possible at all to get such things as roads, railway lines etc. into a game with the FS technology?

    With Cane Creek, they only build the track. For the locomotives, they're using the ones from Sand Patch. I don't think they're going to do much to it, are they? That also saves time.
     
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  22. Task

    Task Well-Known Member

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    So if potentially TSW would have many more players such things would be way easier to do?
     
  23. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    I din't think so. As this is a train sim where you are near by the stuff often. Such tech is expensive in terms of money and time to invest.

    Cane Creek is a special thing. The scenery is not that hard to do as it is nearly a desert. The rocks are made with a simple but good looking technique. Thats a thing that is doable there, but not on other routes where the scenery changes alot more. I have no idea what locos they use or where they come from.

    No, i don't think so. It is not the "after sale started" problem, it is the "time to make it" problem. If i need 3 years for a good looking route, i have 3 years no income while mking it :) So i can't even start making it before i have that money.
     
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  24. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    Optimization is required. If I get more memory on computers and consoles, it will be possible to insert more interesting content in DLC. If the DLC is good, it will sell better. I know a few people who didn't buy HMA because of the missing layers and the total emptiness of this DLC.
     
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  25. schorni

    schorni Well-Known Member

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    According to the roadmap AC4400CW & SD40-2. The same as Sand Patch Grade or earlier CXS Heavy Haul. So every TSW 2 buyer actually already has the two locomotives. Let's see how they deal with that in terms of pricing. I somehow doubt that they have made the completely new.
     
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  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    They may however tweak them, as DTG did with the UP GP38-2 in Pen. Corr. The SD40-2s could be remodeled to DRG&W spec, with UP paint!
     
  27. obisebi

    obisebi New Member

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    Uh, what does that mean? I only found Denver and Rio Grande Western; would that mean they are ex-DRG? (And how would they differ?)
     
  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The Rio Grande were the original owners of the Cane Creek branch, until they were bought out by Union Pacific. SD40-2s would have been purchased in the 70s, back when DRGW existed, and so would have been ordered from EMD according to Rio Grande specifications, not UP's (all locomotives are semi-custom orders). But later, of course, after the merger they would have been repainted.
     
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  29. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    There is something that always makes me curious. You are saying that you would like to build routes, ok. But I sense, knowing you from your contributions in various threads, that you are a person who would not accept to launch something on the market that is below a standard of quality that you have imposed on yourself. And therefore, being aware of the time, effort and money needed to develop it to that level, you don't do it because you know how far a small team can go. In other words, maybe you could launch something of average quality, but you are not satisfied with that, you could not sell something mediocre, and as you are aware of your limitations, you decide to park these projects for the future, waiting for the right moment. So why don't other developers take these things into account and knowing that they won't be able to release well finished and polished products, decide to go ahead with the project? Why do they then sell something that is not well finished and tested? Why do they launch products with multiple bugs that are detected after 5 minutes of playing? On many occasions we, the clients, are penalised by having to report errors as betatesters and we cannot enjoy the routes in optimal conditions. If a company knows that with the time they can dedicate to a route to make it profitable, it will be almost impossible to launch it with the right quality and finish, wouldn't it be better to step aside? Everyone should know how far they can go. Maybe it would be enough to develop other things earlier that don't require as many resources as a route. I know this is difficult, but I would like to see more "TSG-style" developers in TSW, who are committed to quality rather than quantity.
     
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  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Apparently you didn't follow the main thrust of what Maik was saying - time is money. Certainly a route can be goldplated beyond belief- but (assuming the developer can afford to go without revenue for a year), it then has to be priced to recoup the investment. I'm personally not interested in $150 routes.
     
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  31. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Simple, they need the money to stay in the business. They (and also me) have to decide between doing nothing or doing it as it can be done in the given time. There is no "i put another 3 months into the product to make it better". That would not pay out for most companies. I can decide for my own. I just have to fiddle with myself at the end of the day. A bigger company cant do that. They have a manifested schedule. Working like that i dont like at all. But i have to do it too, but not with my own stuff. I do the contract work for DTG and with their scheduled times. It is not what i really want to do because the quality of the products is not what i expect (when i do my work on it) but hey, it is what it is, just a business. As long as i can make money from the work, who cares :) But when i put my hands on stuff where my name is imprinted, i do a different style of work. And that is the problem at least. I want to do it, but normally i cant do it, or someone needs to spend me my income as long as i work on the better stuff. Lets see how it comes out with my 3 planned DLC. Mayb they are selling good, so i can jump into bigger projects, or even not, and i know it then.
     
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  32. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    I'm already looking forward to the DLC you created. I like to buy these DLCs.
     
  33. Task

    Task Well-Known Member

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    Did you ever think seriously about crowd-funding your TSW add ons?
     
  34. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    No, a bad idea at least. in the first place it is not working in such a niche genre and the second concern is the pressure it gives to deliver to a specific date range. No thanks :D
     
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  35. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    ...never thought that this thread would pick up so much speed! Nice to see that a real developer is taking part in the discussion.
    I think the situation in the game industry is almost the same as anywhere in business. To work cost effectivly it is important that your products sell. It is also beneficial to create an own brand and to have a loyal fanbase to sell future stuff. Time is money is an old business saying, but still true. But also quality usually prevails. Good reviews and praise are always motivating, not only for the marketing, but also for all emloyees working on it. Nowadays the most players are graphically spoiled by big AAA titles and they want every DLC or game look as good as possible. So the claims are high. State of the art game engines like UE4 offer so many options and tools to realize such things, that it is not always easy to deliver on a specific schedule. Because first you have to train and learn your skills to use these new tools and to get your most effectiv worklflow. Even professionals never stop learning... ;)
     
  36. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    While this is the case, one also has to be cognizant that this is a niche market. Conceive the most perfect, spectacular, photo-realistic and bug-free train sim imaginable; it still wouldn't sell enough to cover Rockstar's phone bill.
     
  37. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your detailed reply. Honestly, it's the first time in my life I've dabbled in a "niche" video game and it certainly can't be easy to balance the books for the developers.
    I don't usually have complaints in the graphics department, for me TSW looks amazing on a modest old PS4, especially the rolling stock.
    What I didn't understand so much is the policy of release now and fix later. Because in the end that time to fix what you released broken you have to spend anyway and it's not going to bring you any benefit. Besides, bad reviews result in lower sales at full price and lower prestige. But it is clear that money has to come in.
    I for one am looking forward to the 3 DLCs you are building. I am sure they will be of high quality, will be very well received and will sell a lot. And I hope that this will encourage and motivate you to take on bigger ventures in the future.
     
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  38. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, to a certain extent, "release now, fix later" is a given in the software industry. No software releases bug-free; YouTube is full of videos showing bugs and glitches in AAA games. Even gigantic studios like Rockstar and Ubisoft, with thousands of employees and budgets like a small nation's GDP, still release games with bugs. Pretty much every software company in the business has a threshold of "perfection" at which the release simply can't be delayed any longer, because you can't stay in business without shipping. There has to be a limit on how long you spend on QA, and the level of glitch which is tolerable in the near-term.

    The reason is that QA and beta testing are finite, whereas the number of places that bugs can lurk in complex software is nearly infinite. Moreover, the law of diminishing returns is in effect; as the number of un-found bugs gets smaller, the difficulty of finding them increases (think of how hard it is to find that last bloody collectible). DTG's QA team and beta squad are not numerous, certainly in the tens of people not hundreds; then a route is released and suddenly it is being played by 100s of people, doing all sorts of things intended and unintended, and the still-hidden bugs pop up.

    Now, I did say "to a certain extent." DTG have probably not been as rigorous as they could have been WRT how much polish is the minimum required for a release, especially for things which are obvious and should have been caught easily: the buggered sounds of many Preserved Collection locos; scenario-breaking red lights (surely the QA people played all the scenarios?). So there is a balance, and I think in the past DTG have been on the debit side. But I also get the impression that they are cleaning up their act a bit (note that Clinchfield's release date is still undetermined, pending QA).
     
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