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Arosa Streaming First Impressions

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by fabristunt, Mar 19, 2021.

  1. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    Ok they subcontract. But they give their validation or not
     
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  2. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if the problem stems from Rivet Games having more experience with TS 2021 and their workflow simply not being up to par with the demands and opportunities TSW 2 provides. It's a different engine with more advanced technologies and maybe Rivet doesn't yet have the experience and know-how to create more detailed environments. I don't know how close the relationship between the two teams is, but seeing the two new routes being on such different levels, I wish it was closer. I obviously don't know anything about the technicalities of game development so I don't want to be harsh on the people at Rivet. I'm sure they work very hard on new content. I just see the difference in the end result and that tells me there must be a fundamental difference in how these environments are created.

    Another cause of this discrepancy could be that Jamie had to turn graphics down on his PC in order to get adequate performance, but if that was the case I'm sure they would have already stated that. I hope Matt/Sam will also stream this route prior to release so we can see how it looks with max settings.

    As for consoles: I haven't really seen a big difference in console foliage versus what Matt's PC displays with his settings, so I'm sure the cutbacks are elsewhere (shadow draw distance, passenger numbers). Usually what I get on my Xbox is largely the same to what I see in dev streams, and this includes heavily populated routes as well (MSB, RSN, SEHS). So I doubt the barrenness of the Arosa scenery is because of console optimization.
     
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  3. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    It's Rivet I feel sorry for.
    We don't have many Tsw developers and can't afford to lose any.
    I just hope they pull a Dovetail and hold it back for an update.
    They have got so much right that is painful to see the environment they have placed it in.

    It's not a route I would normally be interested in, but I had intended to buy it, just to support them.
    Sadly not in it's current incarnation.
    Just wonder if a snowy background might improve it's looks.
     
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  4. Jpantera

    Jpantera Active Member

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    I'm with yourself, was initially keen and have a lot of DLC as it's way cheaper than my O gauge modelling hobby. I don't have everything partly because I don't have the time but the only German DLC I don't have is the 204 which I refunded due to lack of value for money. I also have all the British Rail era stuff as that was my era growing up. Apart from the IOW which I refunded on steam as I didn't see it as good enough. There's a theme here with these DLC and I won't be purchasing Arosa based on the previews although I'm happy to be proved that it's better than this and maybe change my mind.

    Clinchfield is looking like a cert despite it not being my area of interest usually as it looks great so far and appears to be operationally interesting.
     
  5. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Active Member

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    Exactly. My thoughts!
     
  6. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    Quality control is a big concern here. Release should be pushed back. If this a continuing trend it's not a good look. Rivet have done far better with Isle of Wight route in detail.
     
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  7. rabid

    rabid Well-Known Member

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    It is a little strange that Rivet Games have skimped on the amount of foliage. On PC the foliage and view distance sliders are used to manage scalability, with consoles currently being hardcoded with a low-meduim-ish equivalent setting, so “parity for consoles” is not a valid reason as relative performance is taken care of by the game engine. It is also unfortunate timing for Rivet as the CRR’s scenery does show Arosa in a less than ideal light!
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  8. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    There is to be a day 1 patch so I’d imagine the gradient indicator will be fixed then
     
  9. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

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    It will not. The gradient indicator is a TSW core problem, not a route (Rivet games) problem. The gradient indication is based on where the front of the loco is, not which direction it is going.

    So on a route like Arosa, where at an end station the loco will run-around the train and couple to the other end, and go back, it means that in one direction the gradient indicator will be wrong, because from the point of the game, the loco is going "backwards".
     
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  10. jstange

    jstange Member

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    I know nothing about UE4 dev tools and I know even less about how TSW environment is set up and how it uses UE, but generally speaking: many people mention the number of trees beign the main issue, but you don't need zillion trees to make it look beautiful in my opinion. You need good and detailed textures on those mountain ranges and a mechanism that makes sure that as you move further away from a place trees stop being shown and you just see a texture that imitates a lot of trees, rocks etc. Distant mountains looked way better back in Flight Simulator 2002 days - thanks to better texturing work. This is something that should have been evaluated at the very beginning of the project and if TSW is not ready for this: don't do Arosa then and work with DTG to improve TSW so that this is possible first!
    It was obvious from routes like RSN or MSB that hills don't look very good - they were quite OK there, but not really perfect. I was wondering if they were going to improve this when they announced Arosa...well...
    Additionally what TSW needs badly - and I've been saying this since its very beginning - is blue haze (not white!!!! why are they using white haze everywhere in TSW???) - something that was widely used in TS and was able to cover all the very low detail textures of distant scenery and made things look way better to the eye.
    If we get new textures on those mountains and cover it all by a light blue haze - believe me you'll be stunned by how it all looks. And performance impact will be negligible. It's going to be a lot of manual work, but it will pay off in the end as far as I can tell from users' comments here ("I've bought everything for TSW so far, but not this...").

    Frankly what is really shocking here is how can someone come in front of the community and present this. I would really welcome a comment from someone from Rivet what they were thinking and what was their decision making process during the route creation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  11. jstange

    jstange Member

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    And to add to this: from what I can tell I believe Rivet were very much aware of this issue. For several weeks I was wondering why they always, in all screenshots and all videos, made sure distant mountains were not visible. Except for one short moment in the "Guard signal" video this was never shown until the live stream two days back. There were videos on how they built this and that, most of them with short range shots only or even no scenery at all. I remember saying to my wife some two weeks back: see this - I've been looking forward to this route since its announcement, but look, they never show the distant scenery, it's a bad sign... That's why the live stream was not such a big surprise for me.
     
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  12. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This is something I strongly agree with, and have indeed too have thought of.

    I think the newer TSW 2 routes use a slight blue haze, but I don’t think Arosa does.

    There’s nothing worse than that damn, ugly looking white haze aka that ‘fake’ fog. It just looks so unnatural.
     
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  13. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I liked the earlier comment about looking like Zusi or OMSI, though suspect the developers of those titles might be a bit miffed! I'm not sure what game engine ETS2 and ATS use, but they have certainly nailed the distant terrain and the grungy close up too. If you apply the ProMods map extension (freeware) some of the work they have done for Northern Europe and Iceland is awesome. Okay the maps are scaled down, but even at 1:18 scale you are still driving scores of miles through the landscape.

    Another area route builders can benefit from (and no offence to Rivet or anyone else) is to take a look at some vids of model railways. These really show in many cases how to get the weathered and above all random look that even I admit is so hard to achieve building a route in any sim, with uniform parts and textures. (Nothing to do with Arosa but check out what I mean on this clip:
     
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  14. rabid

    rabid Well-Known Member

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    I think DTG will be keeping a few cards up their sleeves for TSW 2022, so we may indeed see some improvements to the rendition of atmosphere. They have already hinted at track LOD improvements, so who knows what else will be coming that has not yet been revealed? (apart from better passengers & steam locomotives)
     
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  15. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    Personally I would rather see a bit of fog in the distance to hide "the misery" like in the days of old games on ps2 rather than this naked and uniform horror.
    The textures are so bad and pale !!
    We do not feel any "3D effect".
    I'm not asking for realistic mountains but yes the haze in the distance could really hide this very ugly thing.

    An example on an old game .

    [​IMG]

    Another on a recent .

    [​IMG]

    I really think this stuff might help, in any case I would prefer this to the current empty ugly mountains.
     
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  16. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    As I mentioned earlier in this or another thread DTG really need to look at a deal with Bing or Google to permit photogrammetry for distant mountains. TS20xx I know, but there is a certain irony when you load the mapping layer and the hills look beautiful, but you know it will be impossible to achieve that in the editor with the limited texture palette and painting tools.
     
  17. SonicScott91

    SonicScott91 Well-Known Member

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    Requested my first ever Steam refund.

    What made my decision was the Clinchfield preview. Initially I was going to keep my purchase with Arosa and try the route out for myself but the quality into the route scenery between these upcoming routes are night and day.

    Now to be fair to Rivet, the rolling stock looks nice, no problems from me there. Gameplay-wise, seems a shame to some freight wagons and not use them in service mode, this will also mean less variety in AI when travelling along the line, so a few additions to be made there. All in all though, I don't feel that this pack as it is now is worth the full asking price.

    I'm still interested in picking up the route eventually but unless Rivet at least make needed improvements to the scenery, I'll be waiting until it shows up in a sale.
     
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  18. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how you can still buy dlc day one :D
     
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  19. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I never buy anything day one.
     
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  20. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I remember how it started. The earth was then a ball of fire. CSX Heavy Haul. To run this game, I had to borrow a computer from NASA. 10 fps was causing tears of happiness. Trees? Do you remember those beautiful textures in places where they forgot to put them? I was pretty sure this was some form of a geometric message to the gods watching from above. This is a real luxury now.

    Buy with your heart! :D
     
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  21. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Sad, but true. I also planned on buying Arosa line when it comes out, but after seeing the Clinchfield preview... well it really is night and day.

    Of course I can't blame Rivet for the horrible distant scenery, as it's mainly ugly because of the ugly ground textures, and there is nothing they can do about that. While Clinchfield on the other hand has it's mountainside full of trees, therefore the ugly ground textures are not visible. They could, of course, spam the mountains with trees on Arosa as well, but I doubt that would be a good solution.

    But it's not just the distant scenery. While the Arose Line route looked good, the textures feel off. Everything it a bit too light colored and not realistic looking. Maybe it would already look better with a higher contrast setting or something, but as we saw it on the stream, it was weird. And Clincfield seems to have better small details, like the sway on the track looks really good and realistic.
     
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  22. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the thing about the colors. The stream showed colors that were very washed out. Especially the buildings and houses seemed too pastel-like in coloring. We know TSW doesn't always have the best lighting, but something different seemed off in Arosa. I'm actually surprised they didn't do the stream in the snow since that would've likely hidden some of the flaws like the lack of trees and weird colors.
     
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  23. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Agree with this....what is strange though is that Jasper from Rivet promised to fix the gradient indicator in a day 1 patch on-stream.

    This means either a) DTG have a core update planned coinciding with the release of Arosa, b) Rivet have some magical fix which they know works with Arosa and Arosa only, c) They plan on working around the issue by flipping the locos or lastly d) They are telling porky pies.
     
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  24. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    probably this
     
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  25. bricksathome

    bricksathome New Member

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    First time posting here since I don't play Train Simulator all that much - was kind of looking forward to the Aorsa line but as has been mentioned many times - that distance scenery...

    I get that the number of trees used may have been lessened for performance reasons (though that doesn't seem to effect the Clinchfield Railroad, which looks great and has trees o' plenty) so that's fair enough. But I think there's one important thing that affects their overall look; the texture beneath them.
    Here's something I quickly mocked up in a map editor I'm familiar with, American Trucks Simulator's map editor (or ETS2's) Where it is possible to give terrain a fake 'treetop' texture - I tried to keep the same 'style' of mapping as that used in TSW and although the trees still don't look great close up, the mid-far distance looks a fair bit better than the 'dark trees on light ground' look that the Aorsa line has
    [​IMG]

    Of course, the idea solution would be to have dense enough trees that you can't see the ground texture, and I'm surprised that TSW2 isn't able to render a large amount of forward facing sprites considering how new the Unreal engine is (ETS2/ ATS has a game engine from pre-2012 and can do dense forests with real trees with a relatively small performance hit)

    But hey, that's just my thoughts - there are probably other things that could improve the far scenery as well (mainly the texturing) but I think just making the ground beneath the trees darker could help the overall look quite a bit
     
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  26. Lunar_Twisted

    Lunar_Twisted Well-Known Member

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    Before the preview stream, those screenshots of the Chur–Arosa railway looked so good. However, during the stream, the distant scenery mountains looked horrible up close. If they populated the mountains with trees like I saw during the preview stream of Clinchfield RR, then sure I'll buy the route. It just left a bad taste in my mouth after watching the stream. CRR looks for way better than Chur–Arosa railway but I'll wait to see the release built. If nothing changes than, my money will go towards CRR.
     
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  27. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Making the problem move to downhill runs... not much of a help
     
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  28. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    A service ends as soon as you reach either Chur or Arosa....so as long as the loco is flipped the "right" way around to match where you are headed, that should work around the issue.

    As for scenarios with turnarounds (If they exist), it could be a bit more complicated....as I don't believe there is a turntable at either end.
     
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  29. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    In theory to keep going on timetable mode (subject to the save game vagaries) each service should have a run round move at Arosa or Chur to start the next booked working (unless the consists are push - pull).
     
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  30. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    That's what I keep saying as well. The problem is not with the number of trees, but the ground textures. Even though it looks like Rivet tried to make a good job painting the distant mountain sides, as you can see the variations in ground textures, it doesn't matter, as the game keeps rendering distant terrian blurry anyway. So even if you spend hours on painting it nice up close, from a distance it will be a blurry mess.

    Placing trees all around hides the problem, but it's not the real solution. Also, when Rivet mentioned the performance issues, I don't think they ment the number of trees anyway. A bunch of 2D trees will have pretty much zero effect on performance in a modern system, as seen on SPG or Clinchfield.
     
  31. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    Yeh all the timetable services have a run around service after.

    I wish the direction of the locomotive was set depending on which cab is active or what direction the reverser is set.
    This must be easier said than done as it’s been a problem on Tees Valley for a long time.
     
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  32. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    There's not reason to feel sorry for Rivet. They are a company making a product and charging money for it. If that product is not up to par (and I don't think this is), they it's entirely fair to call them out on it and refuse to buy it. They're not some freeware dev making this stuff out of the kindness of their hearts.
     
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  33. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    To me it just looks like Rivet is trying to transfer too many skills and methods from TS1 route making to TSW. That's apparent with the textures, scenery density, and service mode. We know Rivet makes top notch Swiss routes for TS1. They just need to learn more and be willing to change their approach to making routes when developing for TSW.
     
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  34. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    That's just sad. Your quick mockup looks considerably better than Rivet's green blobs with the occasional tree sprites. The UE4 toolset they're using for TSW is significantly more modern and capable than the rather old engine powering ETS2. TSW's trains are usually great but the scenery are often the worst examples I've ever seen of outdoor scenery in an UE4 game, and Rivet's Arosa takes that to a new low.
     
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  35. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  36. solon

    solon Active Member

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    I'm not sure if RIVET reads us, but I'm disappointed with the landscapes in the new scene, as shown. It is still a major interest of this scene to have beautiful landscapes. Especially in TSW which is not TS. If the rendering is really what was shown, Rivet should shift the line release to improve it.
     
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  37. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    I pre-ordered it, I just got a refund. Pity.
     
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  38. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I wonder what updates (if any) we’ll get tomorrow ahead of Arosa Line coming out on Thursday. I’m hoping the LIRR and ECW ones come out.
     
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  39. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    Updates ? sorry dude, wrong game and wrong forum :D
     
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  40. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    We generally get an update on the Tuesday before a new route comes out on a Thursday. It’s also the roadmap release day tomorrow. We might not get one, but fingers crossed.
     
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  41. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    I haven’t heard a squeak from Rivet since the stream, mostly because they are off at the weekend I assume.
    I hope we get a little something addressing the lack of interest in the timetable.
    I don’t think they can really do anything about the scenery now and if the gameplay is made interesting enough then it won’t matter as much.
     
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  42. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The line is a basic "there and back" line with very little side traffic so there is always going to be limited scope for "interesting workings" unless runarounds are that interest. Then again that's true of most branch lines that are single ended rather than working between mainlines
     
  43. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Member

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    What we are missing on this line are:
    a shunter (Tm 2/2)
    a gravel waggon
    a container waggon.

    With these we could have mixed passenger/freight trains to Arosa, with some shunting, where the container waggons are put in a siding for unloading in Arosa, where the gravel waggons were shunted to a facility a bit downhill from Arosa. And with what we got, they should add 1-2 freight services with the wood waggons to St. Peter Molinis. So there would be more variety and still be realistic. The shunting in Arosa and Chur could also be done without a shunter but that one does add realism and variety.
     
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  44. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Yeah agreed, but this kind of criticsm is more of a suggesion. I think for a first release 1 loco, 3 types of passenger coaches and one freight waggon + new traffic-ai tech + new signalling system is absolutely right. Also i don't think the shunter is as popular as e.g. the Allegra would be.
    Of course the fact that the landscapes looks a bit weird is a valid point. I'll have it on day one and if it really makes no fun at all, I'll just ask for refund. But I'll give it a chance to convince me.
     
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  45. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Active Member

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    ...which would be okay, if the graphics were nice (within the limits of what's possible). But what I see here in terms of distant scenery and mountains falls far short of what I'm used to from TSW so far.

    The problem is... these green mud blops ("mountains") are permanently visible, because you are in the middle of the mountains. You can't "ignore" or "overlook" them.

    Especially this world-famous scenery at the Langwieser viaduct is so terribly ugly (I attached one of GrayDawg ´s pictures), how can they sit there in that stream and act like it's all totally awesome? Look at the attached screenshot, the light, the textures - this is a handygame from 2010! This is not TSW2!
     

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  46. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    No ones expecting the activity of Munich-Augsburg but simple things like having one goods train every few hours winding it’s way up and down, perhaps dropping wagons off at sidings or stations.
    Supplement that with some light engine or empty coaching stock runs to the sheds and you quickly enter another level of interest.

    It just seems really odd to model these sidings and goods wagons and then not use them when they’ve bothered to make a lake you can walk around and gimmicks like the conductor dispatch panels.
     
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  47. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    the question is how you can still be surprised :D
    TSW best game ever for the devs - that s all evenf if 10000 Trees are missing, even if there are stations bugs, even if there is stuttering, even if the train is not good linked with the electrical line, even if old addons are abandonned, etc. :p

    Train Drama Simulator

    One thing I do not understand is why they make 5 hours stream in a week instead of fixing bugs :D
    At least with Apple we have good communication AND good products
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2021
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  48. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Active Member

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    You know, I'm really playing TSW2 a lot right now and I think DTG has already evolved in a positive way. They have become more transparent, have a team that takes care of older routes and I find most DTG tracks quite lovely and detailed. I really like TSW2 and I don't want to say that everything is always bad - especially because Arosa is not a DTG product.

    If I were DTG, I would not release Rivet's product in this condition. TSW2 meanwhile has quite good graphics for a train simulator (see Clinchfield). Arosa is a popular route that will surely be bought a lot and if I were DTG, I would be worried that this addon - in this graphical state - would damage the image of my brand. And since DTG is the publisher, they could do that and send the Rivet guys back to the drawing board again.
     
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  49. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It’s likely that it is a misunderstanding on Jasper’s part. He’s probably not aware that it is a core issue in TSW2 and he also knows that some issues are being fixed in an early or not so early patch, and has assumed that would be one of them. It’s not good for a member of staff to assume these things or say things they are not 100% sure about on a stream but he did the same when questioned about the missing times in the timetable on an IoW stream, where he just made an answer up on the spot. It’s a bluff that’s easily seen as one when the truth comes out, or in the case of people like us that know the game very well, as soon as they are said.

    Flipping the loco won’t work as that will mean the services in the opposite direction would have the reversed loco, so I doubt very much that fix is coming. There is an outside chance that Rivet have a unique solution to this issue but I doubt that too.

    I’ll add my favourite handy hint for the gradient indicator, which is to look at the numerical value under the icon that, when moving, shows the correct gradient for the direction of travel, the inclusion of a minus sign denoting the downward grade. The icon stays reversed but the numbers tell the truth. It still shows wrongly when you are stationary as well as the HUD showing the signal behind you until you start moving but it’s a start.
     
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  50. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    What are you talking about?

    Because Sam, JD, Naster and Jamie are not devs but the community team. They answer questions, explain how things are working, try to be transparent. If they wouldn't do that, exactly the same people would be the first ones who shout "GoOdbYE TrAnSPaREnCy" and "DTG being DTG again" and "Oh their communication is sooooo bad, they don't listen to us" etc. etc.
    Their task is not to do bug fixed but rather explain which bugs are getting fixed and why and why not that other one. Sometimes i'm really surprised by the amount of unjustified criticsm.

    Yeah, good take. Apple.. you know.. the small indie business with a net income of 57 Billion USD in 2020. Let's just compare one of the biggest companys in the world with.. you know... a company which build train simulator games (and some fishing stuff).
     
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