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Arosa Streaming First Impressions

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by fabristunt, Mar 19, 2021.

  1. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it would be in the kilobytes. Most gaming oriented PCs have at least 16 GB of RAM anyway plus the VRAM on the graphics card (which typically handles textures) and have no issue running TSW. When TSW starts running into memory issues is when you have many trains in one place usually in a timetable mode with a lot of layers. That's partly why consoles got snubbed out of the HMA additional layers.
     
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  2. cp1400

    cp1400 Member

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    I can't help but think PC is constantly being bottlenecked for the sake of console. Unfortunately..
     
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  3. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    This couldn’t be more accurate
     
  4. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Active Member

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    Its not really a matter of kilobytes, a 2k texture without an alpha is 2.66mb, doubling that texture resolution to 4k is actually a quadrupling of the amount of memory so that single texture then becomes 10.6mb, and to 8k it again quadruples to 42.6mb... however that single UV generally has at minimum has at least 2 textures associated with it, the texture itself and the normal map... but usually there is at least a metalness/roughness/AO texture as well, and there may actually be further textures. Normal maps are also interesting in that they are in a BC5 format and will take 5.33mb for a 2k texture.

    So our very basic asset assuming it has 3 associated textures has gone from 10.65mb to 42.6mb at 4k, and 170.4mb at 8k. However the asset in question may actually have 3 different sets of UVs... so 31.95mb at 2k, 127.8mb at 4k and 511.2mb at 8k...

    Congrats you have now spent 511mb of memory on a single asset excluding the size of the actual static mesh itself which will probably be in the matter of a couple of mb if that!

    Also increasing texture size is not without performance impact in and of itself.
     
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  5. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    DominusEdwardius I fully understand what you’re saying, however the textures and/or resolution size Rivet have used is beyond a joke.

    It’s 2021 for goodness sake, utilising the Unreal Engine, yet some scenes look worse than an early 2000’s game. It’s probably the worst UE4 content I’ve seen out of every game which utilises it.

    I really don’t buy Rivet’s excuse of performance issues which will occur if they add more scenery or better looks assets. Either they’re aiming to run the game on a PS2 or their route building is extremely inefficient and unoptimised.
     
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  6. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    The weird thing about all this is that I don’t think the route has any performance issues at least in my experience so far playing it. I have a very high end system and I am getting 120+ FPS at 4K on Arosa. If I played at 1080p I wouldn’t be surprised if I got mid 200s FPS. So even when we consider the average system spec and consoles, 60 FPS at 1080p should be well within reach even with additional assets, improved distant scenery, and more detailed textures.
     
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  7. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I can imagine how important it was to get 60fps at build stage from them on a walking pace route. :D.
     
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  8. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    60 fps is rather a shibboleth anyway. Somehow it has come to be defined as the 'reference standard,' and that's silly. Movies run at 24. The human eye just isn't all that fast.
     
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  9. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    We are in 2021 and they are still these kind of stupid commentaries, oh my god.
    You can aboslutely not compare movies and video games. its a no sense.
    Play the game with a limit at 24 fps and then at 60.
    And please do not tell me that you don´t see any difference..
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
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  10. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    The human eye is quite fast, actually. The difference between 30 and 60 FPS is staggering, and the difference between 60 and 90 FPS is also easily noticeable even to the layman. Let us not even mention the sub-visual response times of trained eyes that can benefit from extremely high refresh rates, whether that be competitive E-Sports gamers or fighter pilots. Using the framerate of film as a justification of poor game performance is a decade old console "peasant" mantra that is frankly quite tired. The new consoles are finally digging out of the 30FPS rut that they have been relegated to for so long, so I do not think it unreasonable to start holding higher standards for game developers.

    I believe your sentiment may have been more along the lines of, "this is a simulator, which does not require such high framerates for a pleasurable experience," to which I would generally agree. Personally, I like to maintain a minimum of 60FPS simply because the reduction of jerky camera movements and smoother scenery movement feels more immersive, but I understand that for the vast majority, 30FPS in a slow-paced title is just fine. I do not disagree. But I am very, very tired of seeing the phrase, "the human eye can only see..." propagated as some universal excuse for low expectations.

    More to the point: it seems that Rivet has underestimated the performance of the route. Perhaps they will review the route in the near future and utilise some of that performance headroom for improved visuals, where necessary.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I think we're into 30kHz audio territory here....
     
  12. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

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    No, we're not. Movies works in 24FPS because moving object are blurred which improves the perceived motion. Computers generated graphics are sharp images (until you manually apply blurring), so low FPS is especially noticable. One of the reasons why blurring became so populare in games is that it helps in hiding low fps.

    30fps to 60fps in computer games is extremely noticeable. Even the difference between 60 to 120 is obvious, even just by looking at mouse pointer on desktop.

    Open this link and tell me you don't see a difference between them;
    https://www.testufo.com/
     
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  13. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Depends on your age
    And also whether the engine is trying to force out the frames or if it drops them. On TSC I used to limit to 15 or 30 frames to stop the engine trying to force the frames out which stopped the game running "true to time", so one in game second lasted up to three real time seconds.
    You really do notice that...
     
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  14. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I think I said somewhere (maybe this thread) that seeing what the fps on standard PS4 would give a good indication of what Rivet were aiming for. It was pretty much 30 fps every time I checked it. It certainly runs smoother than most routes (IoW was the same) so they have definitely aimed for smooth gameplay across the board, which matches what they have said.

    It’s up to them if they decide to do that but trying to please everyone isn’t easy. I don’t think I would like to make a direct choice between good mountains with less than optimal frame rates or lovely smooth train motion through potato mountains.

    I’m sure if they had gone with better mountains, there would be many still complaining that they don’t look like real mountains and a whole host of people complaining about low frame rates. I might search for some scholarly articles on frame rates so I have more than conflicting bursts of anecdotal evidence based opinions (including my own) to work from when talking about the subject. I doubt there will be any research into how far back one can describe graphics looking like, as in ‘this looks like 2010 graphics’ and then evidence from men in cloth caps reminiscing about how happy they were in 2010.
     
  15. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think the main issue here is that if you look at the grass on those distant mountains it looks a bit like the floor in Wolfenstein 3D, so maybe it's not particularly the lack of trees, the fact that it looks like a Lancashire hillside rather than the Alps etc, but that the very base thing you see has more repeats than a BBC comedy series on Dave
     
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  16. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    Without getting into a console vs PC debate, I feel this is a very accurate. 60FPS no stuttering, and can run as my monitors refresh rate, with very little FPS drops, so I would say performance has been optimised for an really good experience across the board.

    My initial thoughts from playing, and I was on the fence about buying it, is that the train model is highly detailed and stunning. If you are playing from the cab, the immediate scenery, lineside trees, tunnels etc, also look really good. Station models are lovely. Playing in Winter, is far better than Spring or Summer.

    The problem is the distant scenery. While I mainly in the cab, I do like to fly out and look at the scenery, and I think it’s the distant scenery - mountains and trees are what it let this DLC down.

    I will say, it’s a beautful route, and I feel like Rivet have captured the “Swiss feel” to it.
     
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  17. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    FPS matter. I have a low-end rig and my eyes are bleeding from time to time. Complex, detailed 3D scenes seem to be out of sync when low fps. Try to read something when on the move, eg station name boards :) A good and true marketing slogan (don't remember the company - NVidia?): fps is life. BR
     
  18. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Blimey all this talk of 60fps. The maximum I get on my ancient set up is around 32fps on full settings and it looks fine to my eyes, that is on pretty much maximum settings, I suppose I am just used to it. I think controlling stuttering is more important than fps.
     
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  19. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    People who say 30fps are fine are one of the reasons why Rivet keeps releasing this stuff with crappy texture and poor optimisation.

    My god we are in 2021 and there's still around the story of the human eye not able to see more than 24 fps which is clear nonsense.
     
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  20. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you :D
     
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  21. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I will admit I did spoil myself by getting a high refresh rate monitor. I used to think 30fps was fine until I managed solid 60fps gaming. 60Hz was enough but then I experienced 144Hz and now 60Hz will be forever ruined! The problem with upgrading is that you can never go back. It does look so very good, though.... :)

    Cheers
     
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  22. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    60 for these kind of game where the scenary is not too fast ist ok.
    But 30 cmon. I just can not drive and seethe scenery (AI trains, buildings, roads etc.) coming step by step. Just impossible and it ruins the immersion, like Stuttering and other enjoyable things
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
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  23. solon

    solon Active Member

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    Seriously ?

    [​IMG]
     
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  24. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    you won :)
    I hope Arosa is solid 600 fps...
     
  25. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    When I see this kind of pic and when I look at my calendar : March 26th, 2021 ....
    I just simply do not understand. Absolutely disrepect for the guys who spends 30 €
     
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  26. solon

    solon Active Member

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    yes I have the impression of seeing The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion except that the game dates from 2006
     
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  27. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I do plan to upgrade over the next few months. Mainly to run TS1 better as I can run TSW on higher settings. I am sure you are right, when I get a better system I will probably wonder how I managed before.
     
  28. solon

    solon Active Member

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    Is there a version 2 of this line planned to improve it
     
  29. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    Without getting too much involved in the FPS debate, I’d just like to input some personal experience. I used to play games on a crappy old laptop. I played ETS2 7 years ago at 15-20 FPS! At the time, I understood that that was generally considered to be bad performance, but it’s the only thing I had so I kept playing. When I finally got my first gaming rig and started playing games at 60 FPS 1080p I was amazed to how smooth everything was. It felt almost like a whole game and playing experience. Now I play most games at 144 FPS if I can hit it. In TSW, I usually do notice the difference between 60 and 100+. It’s especially noticeable when I move the camera view around the cab or driving at high speeds, but the additional smoothness is definitely noticeable. I could never go back to playing things at sub 30 FPS after experiencing 60 and 144 FPS gaming. My point is, until you actually experience higher FPS gaming over a period of time, then you might think that 30, or maybe even 24 FPS, is just fine.
     
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  30. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Getting back on topic, Rivet need to realise that stretching a 240p texture over an object just isn’t acceptable. Also, with the scenery, they need a lot of work in that department too.

    I’m not sure how it works but perhaps DTG could give them some advice/tips on how to populate trees adequately. If there’s a new technique, then perhaps Rivet should be informed of this.
     
  31. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, movies run at 24 fps and they look horrible. Go see a 60fps movie and the difference will be huge. And it's not just visuals, but response time from the game as well, and while that doesn't matter that much for a train simulator, compared to a shooting or a racing game, it's still noticeable.
     
  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There is a LOT of willy-waving going on here. Like teenage hotrodders comparing dyno readings.

    The whole reason Rivet are being slated on these threads is the reduction of scenery to truly unacceptable levels, in pursuit of a number.

    The funny part is, 2/3 of the player base, those on PS4 and XBox One, have always been playing at 30, yet you almost never hear them complain about it. It seems some of the PC Master Race just get off on claiming to have a bigger Johnson than the guy at the next urinal.

    Yes, it's JUST like 30kHz audio response. A number which certain audiophiles (or at least, owners of expensive equipment) used to claim was essential- absurdly, because no human can hear 30, and most can't hear 20.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
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  33. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    What else would you expect from an 8 page thread?

    I still have to disagree with you about fps. 60 FPS is significantly better than 30 objectively speaking. Why else would next gen consoles touting 120 if 30 is just fine? As usual, the console player invokes the "majority player base" card as a means to justify dismissing the concerns of PC players. All voices and concerns should be listened to DTG regardless of the proportion of the player base it is. May I remind you that PC players funded the development of TSW and DTG as a whole for nearly a decade. I don't think it's time to abandon them yet.
     
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  34. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Because console players are used to and accept 30FPS. It would be pretty weird if you bought a console than started complaining about the lower performance, don't you think? And they don't complain because 30FPS is not unplayable, but PC players complain about it because they want more, One of the main point in having a PC is the potential for better performance by not being limited to what hardware you have. No, it's not about getting off to numbers, it's about having a better experience.

    Sure, there are people who enjoy getting higher and higher numbers, but we're talking about 30fps vs 60fps, not 140fps and 200fps.

    But I don't understand why this is even a depate here, seems kinda off topic.
     
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  35. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    Why PC players have to be penalised by those who accept to run a game like we were in 2012? Answer this.
     
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  36. RailRoadEngineer

    RailRoadEngineer Member

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    The user experience to be the same across all platforms, so the largest common denominator rules, i.e. the gaming consoles [PS3 :P] define what you get to see on a n times more powerful gaming PC.
     
  37. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly, eg. HMA layers
     
  38. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    Why the user experience has to be the same across all platforms? I've bought a computer to run games like in 2021, not like 2012.
     
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  39. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Hate to show my ignorance, but, as next generation consoles have more horsepower, and at least 16 GB of memory, can they access these extra layers?
     
  40. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I hope they manage to implement this because HMA is a great stuff \o/
     
  41. RailRoadEngineer

    RailRoadEngineer Member

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    ask DTG
     
  42. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    While I also have a PC, the answer is easy: Console players pay exactly the same price as PC-users. So everyone should be able to have the same experience. It's just fair. But that's how it is. Console users make around 2/3 of all players. It's their money that carries the game. So if we want to have more routes and locos in future, that's just the deal. Without the console platforms such a heavily development-damanding game as TSW wouldn't be feasible. Creating content for TSW needs muuuch more time than TS. And thus it needs more money to be invested in first place to pay the people who develop it. If console player sales are going down this will affect the whole community, cause then we would have to say: Bye bye, bug fixes; bye idea of longer route; bye, better sounds, bye well developled routes; bye QA; bye new assets etc. Simply because these things consume time --> it needs more money investment. [This has never been stated by DTG - it's my guess of how a business works]
     
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  43. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    So I guess that we just have to hope many players buy PS5 so at least we have some "updated" graphics for PC as well
     
  44. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously all platforms should receive the same amount of content. But my PC should not be limited to console FPS in the name of “fairness”. Also, there will be some graphical quality differences between platforms just by nature of how the game works. PCs have graphics settings in the game. I can adjust to get better draw distance and other improved graphics that consoles are locked to.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
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  45. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly my view. I think DTG is the only videogame house which make the exact same games for both consoles and computers. I know it takes more effort to build two versions of the same game, but I don't think Dovetail is not able to do that.
     
  46. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    Access to consoles is what will lose DTG.
    He's the only one doing this, and I think he will lose it.
     
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  47. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    DTG has never sold as much as since it has been on console, it has at least doubled if not tripled its sales figure ...
     
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  48. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Because in it's current state, TSW is just not appealing to the PC crowd. If it delivered better, many more PC users would get it, but currently it just doesn't worth it for many players, as there are many other train simulators on the PC market and they often offer better. The train simulator groups are still full of people playing TS or Trainz, because the majority doesn't care for TSW.
    While on consoles TSW is the only real train simulator, so pretty much the whole console train lover playerbase will go for it.

    And the "experience has to be the same" is a lame excuse. There were always differences between version of games on different platforms. For example check out many late-PS2 era games, when games were already made for PS3s, but they wanted to get some extra money with PS2 releases, they made a dumbed down version that PS2 could run. That's how it works. If you want to release your game for different platforms, you optimize each release for the platform it runs on. Not doing so is just lame and cheap. It ruins player experience, as seen in these constant console players vs PC players debeates.
     
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  49. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but the quality .... humm It's okay, it's coming
     
  50. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There certainly is a market for TS, Run8, Trainz etc in PC players who don't care what their train sim looks like. TSW for all its issues is the only train sim, on console or PC, that doesn't look like a PS2 game. <snide PS3 cracks coming in 3...2...>
     
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