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Arosa: The Story So Far

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG JD, Mar 19, 2021.

  1. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    My thoughts as well. Before the stream, I was very tempted to get Arosa at launch. After the stream, Arosa looks like a wait-for-sale candidate again.
     
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  2. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    CF203CDE-7D40-4155-913B-A185838ACDD7.jpeg
    I look forward to what the community thinks about Cane creek and it’s distant scenery when it’s released. The Arosa route and its scenery seem at the very least on par with other routes that have released for this game. Instead of picking this route apart for its on par scenery, why aren’t we looking at how Rivet implemented road traffic for the first route in TSW that has us driving down roads, or how detailed and fantastic looking the locomotive is, or how detailed the stations look? Why aren’t we talking about the little stalls that are selling little train globes. This is Rivet games 2nd route for TSW, they have the ability to bring fresh, new ideas that could end up changing how other 3rd parties or even DTG develop content, but instead let’s talk about the lack of distant trees.
     
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  3. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    I do know that the log wagons will be used in the scenarios at least, as they have mentioned passenger+freight services which is a first and is exciting. I have a feeling there will be some freight movements in the timetable, it’s just possible that they are attached to the end of a passenger service. The one thing I can say about Rivet from their release of the 204 and IOW is that they really listen to feedback and make changes that the community would like to see. For instance the 204 released without any main line scenarios or timetable services, until they released a patch that fixed issues but also added a 2 hour long scenario that has the 204 travel down the main line. If they don’t have services that utilize the wagons at launch I know You, and I, as well as many others will be asking for these types of services and I feel like they would be happy to add them.
     
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  4. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Some people probably do not fully understand what the problem with the scenery is. It's not how much Canada it isn't, how much desert it is, or even how many trees Rivet has placed. It's all about quality. The scenery is just not pretty. How badly someone wants to get over it and someone else doesn't - it doesn't matter.
    epic shot, wow (photo)

    PS We cannot count on such a number of details as in this photo. Details - not trees :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2021
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  5. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    4057C927-D011-4452-98E7-D0118551B102.jpeg FDEA7CFE-BEFD-415E-9828-9048327ECD55.jpeg
    I totally understand if it doesn’t live up to your standards. In terms of my own, I think the scenery looks beautiful.
     
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  6. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    These screenshots are handpicked and show only the best looking parts. The live stream shows a very different picture.
     
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  7. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    appledates#4945 A few from the live stream. All these locations are fully accessible and are not out of bounds.

    upload_2021-3-20_23-24-44.png
    upload_2021-3-20_23-24-59.png
    upload_2021-3-20_23-26-6.png
    upload_2021-3-20_23-26-6.png
     
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  8. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    no buy
     
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  9. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    960C3D2E-4FDC-4E17-851B-DC3AF07F4D4D.jpeg
    I would say the amount of trees in those screenshots is on par with the rest of TSW2. What’s the difference between Arosa and the other screenshot is the trees on the mountain really stand out. The very dark colored trees against the light colored grass really stick out in the screenshots, and I bet DTG could help them blend it in more in the background. Is it possible that in the I’m assuming very easy process of placing trees they decided to not put more dense forest because of lack of ambition or artistic choice or the limitations of TSW2. Rivet released a video showing and explaining how they build the scenery, and they appeared from that video as well as on other content to have wanted to build the route as realistic as possible, so I appreciate that they didn’t just line the track with trees. Its the first Swiss route to come to TSW2, it’s also Arosa. The cab and locomotive are stunningly done. Driving down a street with traffic, going up a 6% grade, or down. The little train snow globes. I’ll be buying this route day one because I have really liked a lot more then I haven’t, and Rivet being the first third party to make content for TSW, and watching content they have created starting with TS, and now in TSW. I will definitely support them because they bring unique, new ideas to TSW2. If you would rather not you can always tag them #Givemethewood.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  10. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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  11. ASRGT

    ASRGT Well-Known Member

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    I have said this before, the landscape of a route is just as much a core character of the product as the locos on it.
    The charm of this route for me personally would have been winding your way through the landscape and frankly the landscape is just sub par and it has been on DTG routes as well. DTG and the glossy hills are a repeat offender even now.

    There are so many techniques that can be used like macro variation to avoid texture tiling effects on distant landscapes, in fact even better tie macro variation to distance tiling and drop the gloss value off the texture and it would already look million times better. For an even simpler method.. attached from UE4s own stream back in 2017.


    The good news is Rivet have employed some techniques to avoid tiling but there is no material variation used at least not that you can tell from stream and the base texture appears to offer little in the way of variation and a key to making use of macro variation is to use solid base textures .. anyway id had hoped for more in the landscape of this route.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  12. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    Also these shots are all handpicked.
     
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  13. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    Even besides the lack of trees, the mountains themselves do feel a bit off if I have to be honest. The grass appears too bright and vivid and it's hard to discern the trees from the hills, as though there's not much depth at all. The grouping of trees could have been a bit tighter as well, as using taller trees.
    As it is in-game, it does feel rather bland and doesn't do a good job at holding any interest.
    These screenshots posted by fellow members show a very good comparison between the real world and in-game.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Even though it isn't exactly a 1 to 1 comparison (they're pictures taken in different seasons), I believe this is enough to say that the Arosa line deserves more time in development.
    Even the distant mountains could use some more complex landscaping without sacrificing performance. In game, the mountains look much too gentle and are more akin to hills. I believe they could benefit from having more jagged edge and more cliffs and more ridges, instead of relying on elevation mesh data to do that.
    Furthermore, what boggles my mind is that I don't believe this is a limitation within TSW or the Unreal Engine. I do genuinely believe they're capable of soo much more.
    Even Rivets own Isle of Wight DLC had scenery that felt about right for its given location.
    Why is it that there's quite an inconsistency between routes? Some are great, some are not. I don't claim to be a route artist, but I do believe that scenery needs to be taken a bit more serious.
    With all of that being said, I do want to give props to the folks who handled the train model and design. Rivet has done a few new things here, I especially enjoyed the signaling system and the cars stopping on the road...that was pretty cool!
     
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  14. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Um, have you played Sand Patch?
     
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  15. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    Um, have you played MSB?
     
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  16. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Trees are placed assets; you can't multiply or cull them with a slider, any more than you can add or subtract tracks.
     
  17. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    This makes me wonder if this is why we haven't seen anything from Skyhook about Cane Creek yet. Are they still working on the scenery to make it look the best as possible? Unlike both Arosa and Clinchfield, they cant hide the scenery behind trees out there.
    sp-173-brendel_ut-[5-aug-2005]-001-1500x1000.jpg 46269504965_f6e4bea43d_b.jpg 6fafe5eab93bb272477c6b14de6977eb.jpg 5560.1237093547.jpg
     
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  18. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is not only the distant mountains.

    Some objects and the close scenery is also appalling in some places, I know concrete is not the most beautiful and most interesting material but this is not a justification to use such an awful texture. Screenshot_20210320-010056_YouTube.jpg

    In my opinion trees are only part of the problem, but the terrain, and many of the textures used are bad, while trees would "cover" those things up, it doesn't have to be the only solution to this problem.

    Screenshot_20210321-020545_YouTube.jpg
    Night and day difference, again I know concrete bridges don't get rust etc... but just look at the difference between the quality of the texturing.

    Arosa really seems like an MSTS routes from some angles, the highlight of the route only seem to be train and very close scenery (tracks, OHLE), but I have to say it was a bit anticlimactic hearing Jasper so excited about coming to the various viaducts to be greeted by a 144p texture stretching across the entirety of the structure, I still refuse to believe it is laziness, so I wonder what the problem was: Having to respect a deadline? Limitation of the game?

    The route overall is still decent, but I really hope Rivet learned some lessons from Arosa, particularly if they want to continue releasing Rhb routes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  19. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    Yes we have and that's why MSB is considered one of the worst routes scenery-wise.
    Distant scenery is bad on this route and there's no denying it, but whether that bothers you or not is entirely subjective.

    I think the route is pretty great if we ignore the scenery but sadly that's a vital part of it to me.
     
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  20. ASRGT

    ASRGT Well-Known Member

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    This is not going to be an easy one for them, without using something like photogrammetry the results honestly will probably fall well short so id lower any expectation you might have for it. Fingers crossed for them however.
     
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  21. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know what the fps rate will be on console but if they have been aiming too high then that would limit what they can do with scenery. On a slow route like this the 60 fps they were showing on stream really isn’t necessary but it depends more on what the frame rate is on consoles than on a powerful PC, that’s where the limit is. SPG achieves what it does partly because the frame rates are lower than in other routes, and I’m expecting the same from Clinchfield too judging by the density of trees on that route, although the scenery there is less distant than on SPG, so that helps. Arosa has quite high distances to some of the scenery.

    Until it releases and I can put the fps counter on the old PS4 I can’t really tell if that’s the case. The less often you have to draw the trees the more trees you can have, and a lower fps rate is a good compromise to allow it to happen, within reason. SPG on my PS4 has 15 to 17 fps and that has really long trains added into the mix, something Arosa doesn’t have, and it still manages dense trees at a fair distance. It also looks fairly smooth with no stuttering.
     
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  22. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the scenery is the key performance impact issue. I play on a low-end laptop maxed out everything plus maxed even more via engine.ini. But primary fps killer is CPU-dependent activity like heavy train traffic (layers) and simulation aspect which is related to trains length.

    PS Arosa doesn't have a lot of long trains...
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  23. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    I know I definitely will be spending the most time on this route inside the cab driving. I think they did a great job making it feel like your driving up a mountain and the scenery looks good to me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  24. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    5350C645-A801-445A-A451-037B6F8BE0D9.jpeg
    This will be the first route to feature driving down main roads with automotive traffic. This looks fantastic.
     
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  25. Swisstrains

    Swisstrains Well-Known Member

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    So I also wanted to share my opinion, although I guess no one cares hahaha
    I think rivet has done a very great job here, especially the train and the close scenery looks awesome!
    The distance scenery looks good, but not awesome.
    I just took a look at other routes and- wow, especially on HRR there were a lot of trees, even in the distance some mountains were on Arosa. So in my opinion there is no way that the fps are the problem here; but I’m not an artist at rivet! We have to wait, maybe some things will change until release but I don’t think there will be a big change. I guess we will have to be happy with what we have, and that’s a pretty well made route in switzerland, which will make me buy day one.
    And who knows, maybe the next route will also be in switzerland ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  26. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    Very well put! I agree 100%.
     
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  27. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    My next Route want Hamburg-Lübeck and German Loco DLCs.
    I want pass Arosa Linie because of this Crap graphics
     
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  28. praxidike.meng

    praxidike.meng Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, I have to agree with many others on this one... Distant scenery just isn't on the level we've come to expect of a TSW route. It's a shame, because it has been mentioned since the first developer video, and nothing has been improved so far, leaving me pessimistic that they will adress this in the future.
    On another note, Arosa really pushes the envelope in some areas and it shouldn't be overshadowed by questionable distant scenery. Attention to detail on the stations and immediate track side objects cannot be denied and the catenary is probably the most detailed we have seen on any TSW route yet. Train models and functionality is just superb. The many tunnels and viaducts are just marvelous to look at and capture the feel of the route adequately in my opinion. Cars reacting to approaching train in Chur is also as-of-yet unseen mechanic and is in this sense a true achievement, possibly paving the way to development of traffic reacting to level crossings in future routes.

    So to conclude my first impressions: my enthusiasm of this route has admittedly taken a hit, but I still believe it showcases a labour of love and imagination of what this game could offer in future. Thus I will still place my preorder.
     
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  29. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    I’m sorry you feel like the graphics are “crap” and I happen to know that you are really only here for German content and any other content in your eyes is “crap”. I’m sorry you will be missing out on this route as it surely has some unique qualities. I also think if anyone enjoys TSW can’t see the new ideas and attention to detail that Rivet have accomplished that will add to make TSW a better experience overall, and instead immediately tear them apart over some distant scenery, it’s a real drag. This is Rivet games 2nd route for TSW2, they are bringing a new country, a unique route and have implemented new ideas like the signaling system, driving next to automotive traffic, and the attention to detail on the cab and stations. Rivet and other 3rd party developers can bring fresh, new ideas to TSW not only for their content but they also can help DTG expand on their ideas. This to me is a very exciting prospect and it should be to anyone who is a fan of TSW. If you choose to ignore that, and decide to not support Rivet and not purchase this route because of “crap” graphics or distant mountain scenery that you won’t even see from in the cab, then your just ignoring all the details they got right. If we want TSW2 to be a better game in the future, then we need to support 3rd party developers. I really hope when Cane creek is announced, which will be Skyhooks 1st route that someone in the community will choose to look at the positive things they have done instead of getting the community worked up over the distant desert scenery and the lack of trees.
     
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  30. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    You defend them, it speaks well of you, but they have fallen into this trap themselves.

    I would love to see some polished stream, from the cabin, without stupid jokes, all this chaos and technical problems. Unfortunately, this presentation exacerbated the problem. As if the audience is not behaving (mercilessly), you must look elsewhere for the guilty parties. Willingness is not enough these days. Believe me, I know this all too well from an autopsy. I have only complaints to myself. But that's another story.

    I'm waiting for a PROPER video announcement.
     
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  31. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why in this forum every time someone talks about something bad in a DLC it seems like it's a direct, personal attack to the people that made it.

    Nobody is tearing anything apart Rivet, nobody thinks they are a bunch of lazy people that can't be bothered to make some mountains look good, many people praised Rivet for their work, it's clear they put a lot of effort and passion for what is almost their "home" route, and that makes the mediocrity of some aspect of the DLC even more strange.

    I saw no comment that stated the DLC is awful, just a discussion about the (obvious) shortcomings of the route, it could be argued for DLCs like this, the distant scenery IS the most important part, it's not just something you might notice for 5 or 10 minutes while going at 130 km/h like in Main Spessart.

    The other main feature of the route, the viaducts are even worse than some models used on MSTS.

    While the DLC is not awful, I think the majority of us can agree is not extremely good either.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
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  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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  33. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    As always, we should all wait for the final product to make a decision. In terms of defending them, absolutely. The small team at Rivet has put a lot of work into this route, you can tell from visiting their forums and seeing how much they interact and take feedback from the community, you see it from previously released content they have made for TS and TSW. You can see they are passionate from their work on the locomotive and the stations. You can really tell from the new interesting collectibles they brought into TSW2 on the IOW. Is some of the screenshots of distant scenery the best I have ever seen in a game? No. Is it okay to think that? Yes. If that is the reason you won’t be purchasing this route then that’s okay. You can’t push all the hard work and positive things on this route aside just for some distant scenery screenshots that are not even remotely taken from the cab or where the majority of the experience will be.
     
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  34. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Good one, I take full responsibility, bad wording from my part, thankfully I took more time to actually try and put into words how I feel about it, I will proceed to edit my first post and will make sure to avoid this sort of thing in the future.

    For clarification: I was trying to defend Rivet, by saying it doesn't make sense for a team to be so lazy after they showed the will to put so much effort into making the train, implying the were, in fact, not lazy, and it makes sense for me they put the same amount of effort into the mountain as they did in the train, but were limited by the game/last gen console hardware or something out of their control, and if you notice is the exact same thing I am trying to argue in this topic.

    "it's clear they put a lot of effort and passion for what is almost their "home" route, and that makes the mediocrity of some aspect of the DLC even more strange."

    I understand it was worded extremly badly, and I apologize.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  35. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    I would really like another video in the same style as Matt and Sam made for the Clinchfield.
    Too bad if it is not live as long as it is fluid !!
    I'd like to see the line as Matt and Sam showed us.

    I want Swiss roads on TSW2, I know very well what I am buying.

    I'm a little disappointed with the Clinchfield, I pre-ordered and won't get my money back, I'm a collector and want it all.

    Yes, I don't like distant mountains, it's not beautiful, it's even very ugly, but I drive in a cabin with no "outside" view.

    Maybe at the beginning like all new routes I will look everywhere and see all the faults, but after several services I think that I will not pay too much attention.
    And then under the snow it still looks very nice, and it hides the bad textures quite a bit.

    Of course, Rivet will have to prove to me that for his next road they will have learned the lesson, I think that for them it must be very hard at the moment ...

    I have created quite a few "free" routes on TS and I know what it feels like to "rot" like that.
    It hurts, even if we don't say it, it's the truth, it hurts your ego very badly.

    Do not give up Rivet, DTG was entitled to much worse from us, we could have hung them I wonder if some would not have done it !!
    Today is a day of celebration for them, I think we are all happy with their latest line to come.

    Courage Rivet, you will get there.
     
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  36. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    You aren't going to convince anyone to spend their money on something they don't like. That "some unimportant distant scenery that you can't even see from the cab" is actually one of the most important parts of a route that is in reality famed for... yes, it's beautiful scenery and views . Anyone who watched the stream knows you can see the nearby mountains all the time, even from the cab.
    As I stated on multiple posts already, I'm satisfied with what Rivet has done with the route and I'm definitely not ignoring other details they included (lovely catenary!) but the distant scenery (not trackside) is just objectively bad no matter how much you try to defend it. If everyone just accepted it as it was, how would Rivet know how to improve? They wouldn't, and the next route would look the same.
     
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  37. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    Very good, but people are saying that. Calling them lazy is a little extreme especially considering none of us know the circumstances of how they work.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  38. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    I wonder whether any of the people complaining about the distant scenery are the same ones that talk about “immersion”. If so, then presumably you never look at the distant scenery as immersion would mean you would be in the cab the whole time concentrating on the route ahead and not admiring the scenery.
     
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  39. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Denying certain facts is not healthy for your wallet. I hope, at least Rivet doesn't do that now.
     
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  40. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    I am personally not trying to change any ones mind about purchasing this route. I care more about the new member that doesn’t know that comes into this thread that may be put off because they just see posts about “terrible, lazy Rivet and the unacceptable scenery.” Instead of seeing the positive things they have done with this route. I hope at your job, on your 2nd assignment you spend 6-10 months on a project that you have put passion and hard work into. When the time comes to hand in your 200 page project. I hope the boss ignores the 199 pages and instead tells you how lazy you are and how unacceptable your work is. Not because your work is bad, but because you had a typo on page 40. Because of that your work is crap. Period. I hope you learned your lesson. If I was Rivet games I wouldn’t want to produce any more content for the TSW community, not because I couldn’t do a good job, but because the few who really harp on small things would literally just drain any passion or hard work I did have when making the content. Same for DTG. I agree it’s good to point out flaws so that a company can grow and be better. I don’t believe in always calling out flaws and always ignoring the things they have changed and done right. Nothing is ever perfect, that doesn’t mean you can’t say they did a good job.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  41. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    Except this isn't like a typo but something much much more major. It's like using a yellow font colour on a white background for the entire project. It can be amazing but it still hurts your eyes.

    Nobody, at least not me, is calling the entire route crap. You can actually see they put lots of effort in it :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  42. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I watched the stream on this route and of the American one. I was puzzled at the reason there are less trees in the Swiss route to conserve the load put on hardware only to see the American route packed out with trees. I'm sure Matt said something about using some coding techniques to allow them to use more distant scenery. Perhaps Rivet and DTG should have a chat?

    I have no intention of buying either but they look good overall and the new things Rivet and DTG have bought in I look forward to seeing on other routes.
     
  43. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t paid 30€ with this horrible Trees and Mountains in 2021 that’s why I called this Crap from the Graphics.
    I see no long term motivation to drive this route How it looks.
    Germany, Austria and Schweiz are the same for me basically because it’s my neighbor country’s, but it’s not saying that I buy it blind with Fan glasses
     
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  44. Swisstrains

    Swisstrains Well-Known Member

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    and no one said you have to. But making it bad for others and calling it “crap” because it’s not what you were expecting is a bit more then only not buying it because you don’t wear fan glasses ;)
     
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  45. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    The post you made regarding the Clinchfield route.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  46. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    I’m sorry but it seems you don’t like anything if it’s not German.
     
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  47. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    just put that person on your ignore list, they have not even once made a post that would add anything to an ongoing discussion.
     
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  48. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    He doesn’t like anything at all, having never said a good word about anything, or anything remotely constructive. I wouldn’t let it worry you.
     
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  49. IronBladder

    IronBladder Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    And what you get in TS2021:[​IMG]
    Not quite the same view, but better looking trees, both taller and denser.
     
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  50. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    There’s no sugarcoating the fact that the TS2021 version looks miles better, despite being significantly older and running on an older game engine. This really shouldn’t be the case given just what UE4 is capable of... Rivet have barely scratched the surface in this regard.

    Even relatively simple things like the river and river bed look much better on TS1. It actually looks like a windy, flowing river as opposed to water on top of some plain looking grass.
     
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