I stand to be corrected but in all likelihood ATS is a bunch of people working from home in their spare time. So items like rent, power etc are irrelevant as these would all be paid anyway. Assuming the “business” is run properly and VAT is paid on sales and income tax by the bearded one and associates on any profit or royalties earned, the only other outgoing is likely to be research material or field trips to visit the prototype. Anyhow even if I could embrace the selling model (which I don’t) and really wanted a 745 (also not on the agenda), the price crosses my personal red line for that sort of thing by a considerable margin.
As there's no one giving actual feedback on the DLC itself (I've heard about bad performance), it seems the project has failed for ATS anyway. (It will work for subscribers though due to the psychological effect of a subscription model - I've already paid for access so I must buy it...) and is restricted to one route only. Yes the price is too high for the average player, whose costs of living have also risen, and speculations on why the bearded one is currently in need of money for certain reasons known to a group of few, will get the thread locked soon I guess. And the possible malware backdoor by adding many modified Windows dlls to the RailWorks\plugins folder that are accessed by the announcement plugin, and the Launcher make this all a complete no go for me. Throwing in the advice to never play using an admin profile - always work and play on Standard user profiles. If you want DRM, use Steam. Don't reinvent the wheel providing dangerous homemade software (and the DLC has already been leaked anyway to a part of the world inaccessible for western law. Not good, but to be expected.)
This is an accurate assessment. It's entirely a work from home operation, and unless the rate they're paying the developers has substantially increased from what myself and the other contractor involved were being offered before ANDGames replaced us, it would easily be covered even at previously "normal" rates with a pretty decent profit margin. Having been behind the curtain, the folks theory-crafting to justify the price increase are utterly hilarious, so thanks for giving me a good chuckle guys!
It feels a bit unfair on the subscribers. If it's a premium product it would make more sense to market it at £49.99 and £34.99 with sub discount. That way they could have a much bigger saving to boast about.
The difference is I do not seem to be alone. It is a shame, I was interested in it. Just in case it showed up somewhere else one day.
Of course cost comes into it, it's one of the factors (quite possibly a major one) we all consider before committing to a purchase so has to come in to any discussion about any item of DLC
Setting price too high will shrink the customer base and will be less economical (especially for a digital copy of a finished product that can be sold infinitely). Inbetween minimum and maximum lies the optimum.
I've spent a couple of hours at a chums house playing with the 745...it looks fine, drives OK (but do read the manual and suss out which steps are necessary and which are more cosmetic) and can honestly say.................. yeah, it'll appeal to those easily impressed.
It will work without the plugin running...you'll just not hear the announcements---though if you ain't got GEMMA that doesn't matter...but whether GEMMA's wonderful/worth getting is for another thread...
I was not suggesting you buy it. I was showing what you got for almost half the price Not sure what you mean by "Does it have fully driver controlled doors?" The driver just releases them when at a station and closes them before departure- DOO style. It does have Cold Start - it does not have announcements but it does have information screens inside the train. The ICNG has selectable destinations for over 200 places - some on fictional some real life And it does not come with any Scenarios but then the 745 only has three scenarios for One route A bit silly to make scenarios for a given route as the purchasers might not have it. Instead there around 600 scenarios for Freeware routes on the Dutch Sims Group that have the unit as Player or AI Again I'm not saying go and drive Dutch units but how much cheaper this unit is compared with the 745 Flirt.
In fairness to ATS (never though I'd type that!) the scenarios are duplicated for the RSC GEML route (GEMMA is just a tarted up copy with track revisions in Ilford depot and a platform 6 at Shenfield--possibly more, those are just what I've found by installing GEMMA scenarios in to GEML)
Which basically spits on every DLC that comes with scenarios for any route. It is normal if you ask me. I would prefer to see scenarios.
While I would normally be extremely critical of something like this, the issue here is that I actually work for ATS so I'm going to have to be a bit restrained. For context, I did not have any part in the 745 project. As far as I'm aware AND Model is not a fan of the price either. I remember having a strong-worded discussion with Alan Thomson before I joined about the price of the AP 142, which at the time I thought was ridiculous. In hindsight, the AP 142 is a good deal, even though it would be better if it was £5 or so less. The variety and usability of the 142 pack is significantly higher than the 745. If it had the 755 as well the issue would be reduced but the price complaint would still be present for obvious reasons. The 745 has a number of issues, but it has a number of features that are very impressive and innovative, and a huge amount of effort was put into its development - but from a consumer point of view I just can't justify the price. As a side note about the Yawwie debate, I believe that most of the time he is harsh but fair, and as opposed to the opinions of certain people he does give praise. However, the price of things does play into the final opinions in his videos, and I believe many things would receive overall better reviews if the price was lower. On the other hand, I believe Yawwie was overly and uncharacteristically harsh in his 745 video. He does raise problems with it which are valid, but then he is quire brutal with other things that personally I don't think matter as much, and of course there are the personal insults aimed at Alan Thomson and the employees which I believe is wrong. I am very critical of things myself, but I do not insult individual developers. With that said, even though I am an ATS employee one thing I don't like is people brown-nosing, whether it's for us or any other developer. My personal view is that you should be free to criticise the 745 and other ATS content, but please be constructive about it and don't fall into the trap of insulting individuals because of it. As a final point about the problems with the 745, please don't ask me about any fixes because I am not part of that team and, as I said earlier, had no part in the development of this pack.
I do think that people are not taking into account the huge cost of living and inflation rises since Feb 22 when complaining about prices for ATS and AP stock - no-one is immune from these including developers / development companies and to expect prices today to be the same as a few years ago is just not realistic. Additionally the personal, snide and downright rude comments towards individual developers on these threads is out of order - funny how brave some people can be from behind a keyboard.
Read the thread. The price is not related to development costs obviously, but in the end ATS can decide the price themselves. But they have to expect the product being stuck on the shelf probably. That's not our fault or responsibility. In the end, we only have a "Yes" or "No" and we can explain our reasons - as we are too suffering from rising costs of living. Nobody has been insulted (except for that "SHUT UP" comment maybe, but whatever, nothing that would hurt my feelings.) And we have not critised the devs, but their boss's methods. Nothing more to add, I'm not interested in the DLC, and I've given the technical reasons for that. Nothing personal.
Funny how confidently wrong some people can be when they weren't involved anywhere in the process. I'd point you to my message above for why that really doesn't even begin to cover it. It's also very difficult in this case to critique the product without also critiquing the management and individuals behind it. This is a large part of the reason it cost them more to develop has less to do with cost of living or inflation, and more to do with the fact that poor management and a breach of contract caused by them taking actions that frustrated the ability of those of us on the project initially to complete it led them to having to pay a second developer to take it on afterwards. Alan and Pete are therefore inextricably linked to how much it ended up costing them. I'm not going to go into any more depth than that, but I want to make the point that you cannot always separate the people from the product when it comes to criticism - it was their actions as people that contributed to the problem, and therefore their qualities as people are very much on the table. There's more to it, but I don't feel that it will really add anything of value to this reply. Personally, I was have been quite happy to mostly sit out of these threads (barring the odd throwaway comment on Discord) until their barrister decided to demonstrate how oblivious he was to the Streisand Effect on Twitter and threatening people who were discussing the above events. He appears to have stopped now, which was probably a good choice.
Virtual Railroad DLC don't include any scenarios but it does not stop people buying them. Scenarios are ok for those people who have the route the scenarios are made for.
I have always had a bad vibe about Alan ever since I saw his stream on Twitch for the first time and I noticed beer references everywhere. He does not come across as a game developer, but as an amateur - and an unprofessional one at that. And requiring people to pay him money before they can chat with other people in his chat? This is all about screwing people to make money. That is just the vibe he gives off. So why should I go to his Web site and give him money? I suspect there will be more at some point, and my opinion may change. We will see. I would, if I were a developer, be cautious about partnering with Alan. Richard and AP would be a much better option for hosting trains, even if I dislike the price sometimes (he actually has sales, after all). While the scenarios involve a bunch of expensive stock, they are still kind of optional and you can swap stock. He is also way more professional. Alan wants to embed all of his stuff into every freeware route on his site. Because he wants people to feel forced to buy his stuff. You cannot download a custom route without needing multiple products and the most expensive electrical wires I have ever seen. The wires should be bundled with his routes. Every route, give that dev a pound on every sale. Freeware, any route can be a requirement for the wires. Should make some deal with Richard to bundle his signals directly into each route, same idea, kick back some cash. (That one might not be possible, but could always ask.) In short, I have graduated from two different college business programs. Based on my education, Alan seems like a horrible person with a horrible business model (that is the accounting diploma talking there). That is not an attempt to insult him. That is just the vibe he gives off, and my opinion of how he runs his business. Thank you also for your honest thoughts about the 745. This is appreciated. That is the point I was making earlier in this thread and even in this post. There are so many ways he can run his business better. He seems to lock himself in an echo chamber where you must give him praise. I want to be interested in the products and support the devs, and I do like the variety of reskins available on the site. But I cannot condone how he runs the payware elements. Yes, he needs to make money. He is doing it badly. And this site will suffer one day the fate of UKTS. The difference is that Matt got busy with DTG himself, and didn’t have the time. Alan has all the time on Earth, more than most people, and still can’t do it right. Just my opinion. I did not say every DLC has scenarios. Heck, the 111 has none with Granfield gone. Just another example.
To my mind as a developer, complex trains should at minimum ship with a tutorial scenario, beyond that the best scenarios tend to be user created after release anyway though
This is true. I don’t like how many of them are chock full of DLC you don’t really need, but some people are trying to make the most realistic thing possible. Looking at Midlands scenarios ideas right now, and I have one in mind using two DLC. The 222 and the AP 700. That is all that runs in the real timetable. Why add more? (It would include a single optional AP 170.). Yes, I could add the 360 now as well, but the extension does not feature wires, so lots of 222 there too.
That's not required, you just have to follow the stream for ~30 minutes, which is fair enough as it can prevent raids
Has it always been like this? When I saw it the restriction was subscribers only. I also left immediately because I went to a stream where chat was freely open at the time. I don't use Twitch very often now, either. So I can't say right now.
It's follower-only and always has been. I don't think twitch has sub only mode unless you're partnered
Maybe I am mistaken then. Either way, I don’t like following channels demanding it to join the conversation, as you can’t get to know anyone - most importantly, the caster - before joining the community. So yeah, same idea, just not financial as I first thought.
But raids are the best part. A streamer says go bomb his chat to show appreciation, and they can't bomb the chat. He might as well say "don't host me, I'm not interested". Nightbot can be programmed to find spam. Some will get through, but a new filter and it's gone too.
His FB group is also closed to browsing unless you sign up. I was a member briefly, but the first time I put a cautious comment about the business model I got flamed and belittled so promptly left. I know we shouldn’t get personal on here but have to agree with the assessment above, not a nice guy.
Well, remembering IHH, Godber and his fate, as long as AT's faithful disciples praise and worship him, this attitude won't change. I see there is a staunch defense of ATS here already. But I stick with my principle, no schemes of 'promises', hidden costly requirement, no non-transparant, unsafe launcher, no exe and dll over some clever lua scripting. PA messages and announcements on trains have been achieved by other developers without the need of executables. Like we see at some other board where everything is 'beautiful, wonderful and amazing', this attitude will come back like a boomerang and hit reputation, sales and ultimately harm some of the kind developers that have put their faith and creative efforts in.
Some of those developers are probably among the so-called "disciples". For those who are not, I caution: your time is coming. If he can do it to doonicus, he can do it to you too. What was that about IHH? Alan was with that at some point?
IHH's Godber was a competent 3D artist/modeler. The sounds left something to be desired, and scripting wasn't so advanced in RS/TS days. I wouldn't be surprised if Godber is still involved in contract work.
The IHH Facebook page was the most entertaining thing on the internet, he'd somehow manage a new rant every day.
It was before my time but I did hear about it. I heard he blew up at one point and RSC bought his catalog. Some never came back, like the 26. I actually needed to do some research into his Class 40 at one point for stock swapping purposes with either the AP or JT sets. You would be amazed how hard it can be to find something gone that long. Did finally get some research material and now know IHH didn’t split off vacuum and dual brakes in the blue model as the train numbers mixed those ones up. AP has vacuum and dual split properly. Well researched. I now know to change some train numbers on the AP one now when swapping it in. I do wonder if the IHH 40 was good aside from that, however, compared to AP and JT ones. Still need the JT one since anyone can still get that (the DT one). I further wonder if it is the IHH one that DT had! Bonus stuff now if so.
I don't think the two situations are a like for like comparison. IIRC IHH seemed to attract a lot of unwarranted criticism that bordered on trolling - perhaps not helped by the developer behind them being willing to give back as good as he got! A similar situation seems to exist in the attitude of some users to High Iron Simulations, though the developers there seem a touch more diplomatic in responding (or not, as the case may be) to the critics.
Some have commented on the attitude of one specific person there. I have seen the person's brashness first-hand and, for one, believe those accounts.
Chris, of ChrisTrains fame is a much more nicer and respectable guy too. He is honest and he dont have a bunch of snide gangstalking lackeys following him either.
I often find reviewers and their style of commentary like Yawwie to be overly negative at times; and it sort of spreads like a contagion in the comment section and the community in a whole in a way which ends up in unwarranted criticism, over minor issues boiled up to look far worse. It’s especially because of how the reviewer uses terminology or vocabulary, makes jokes, etc. Just not my kind of review style honestly… An underrated TSC / TSW reviewer that I want people to check out is The Trainspotter From Tauranga; I like his style of review commentary much better. Admittedly, he can get a little harsh at times, but not to the extent that others sometimes do and he doesn’t often make overly negative jokes. Lots of the time he will provide both positive and negative opinions on a DLC he is looking at; instead of just focusing on one or the other, which I find others don’t do often… Lots of the time it’s a lot of negativity all day long with others and yeah just not my type of content. I also like how TTFT will often give constructive criticism too, on what can be improved, or what could’ve been included if something is omitted. I do disagree with his opinions at times but I always respect them because he delivers it in an overall calm tone without going crazy or using overly negative vocabulary. Go check him out, he’s good! It helps a lot more to see genuine critiques and criticism of products in a mostly positive and calm manner! I often don’t get why people have to be so negative all the time; then again, negativity does generate more clicks than positivity.
I've seen his Workshop page. Been meaning to play some of his scenarios, have downloaded his and others' collections.
Reviewers that are swearers, ranters and drinkers immediately fail my test of "measured in speech, measured in action". I miss At the Railyard. He was excellent.
Who was that? I personally enjoyed PTGRail's route learning videos; it's a shame he got too busy with his profession.
To be honest, the reason I didn't buy this add on was because its not something that really interests me and its the wrong area to what I prefer (Midlands) and I would like the diesel version but if and only if they include the Transport for Wales version that is about. Great Anglia is not really an area I cover and the default DTG route I have came to me in a bundle. As for the price, I am suspecting that is due to licensing prices from both Stadler and Abellio Greater Anglia? As there is not many licensed Stadler trains available. Most are either debranded or have freeware branding patches to work around the trademark restrictions and its completely legal as well as no money is exchanged on branding patches hence the loophold. Would I be correct to assume that this Class 745 is a fully licensed and branded add-on hence the cost? I appreciate any advice on this one please.
Thanks for that mate. In that case, the price makes it very poor value for money or at least in my opinion. I would have been happy to pay that for this add-on had it been officially licensed and branded. Oh well, I will stick with the Class 185, the DRAX wagons and the CAF Mk5's I have with the latter two being recent purchases. I like to support developers but I am not going to pay through the nose for that add-on with just one livery and very limited use as I don't think anyone else yet uses the Class 745 except the GEML. It's too limiting to me but that is just my opinion. If others want it, go for it as I don't judge and I respect free will .
It's normal to deliver free patches representing the branding, as no licensor is interested in proving that a non-advertised non-commercial patch containing bitmap files, is violating law. (And proving a bitmap IS actually a violation of copyright is not as easy as you might think, there's many counter arguments that can qualify a livery patch as an interpretation more than a replication. A good lawyer would go for "resemblance" which is not illegal. Just because something looks like the CSX logo, it has to be proven objectively that it is a CSX logo. Then you could argue about resolution, exact colour values, placement, proportions etc....) If developers could only make licensed stuff, there'd be no train sims at all any more. This copyright and licensing madness is getting worse and worse. Profit for a few instead of profit for everyone.
Not sure what you mean. What's wrong with the livery being delivered in an external download? The result is the same, you get a branded train.
AP does the same thing. Correct me if I'm wrong, however, but I don't think Virgin let him even do a branding patch. That said, everyone is trying to avoid the idea of selling an unlicensed branded product by buying the unbranded one and offering the branding patch for free. It's still basically the publisher saying "hey, guys, look over here, branded product available if you buy this". I'm honestly surprised they haven't been challenged on this yet. Maybe the operators feel going after small outfits like this isn't worth it and the free advertising is better than nothing? Why spend thousands of dollars to wind up with a judgment that will never be paid when the company ceases to exist? Kind of makes sense, but AP also does the research trips and gets the ability to use cameras, and probably pays for that, so they probably have more leeway than most would. No idea about ATS and others.
