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Bakerloo Line Lu Speed Rules Not Implemented?!

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by nielsmallant100, Aug 21, 2020.

  1. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Active Member

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    On the LU irl, speed changes go into effect as you pass the board, not after your entire train has passed the board, like on most conventional railways. But like why isn't this implemented, now I am getting points deducted for trying to drive realistically. It's not hard to implement either, cause the 72 stock always has the same length. Just move the speed marker back by the train length and your problem is solved. Please implement this, its a must for realism.
     
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  2. trigzd

    trigzd Active Member

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    I’m pretty sure this won’t ever be changed due to how the game handles speed changes. This has already been slightly addressed in other threads but if you simply moved the speed limit forward and had it ‘invisible’ then it would still show up on the HUD and potentially confuse people as to why the speed limit was in a certain place on the HUD and a different one altogether physically. Either way, if you drive properly the rest of the time the points lost are negligible really. Between that and the signalling yes it’s annoying but apparently the restrictions of the game make it unfeasible to change without sacrificing something more fundamental. Hope that helps!
     
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  3. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Active Member

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    so we are choosing noob friendly over realism? alrighty then
     
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  4. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    That’s not very nice, DTG are aware that it isn’t how it is in real life but as the person above stated it’s how the game was built that makes it difficult to change the speed limits on bakerloo line, and it’s just a bonus that it does help with people who are new to the series.
     
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  5. trigzd

    trigzd Active Member

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    Pretty much, I’m not defending them for it but they haven’t implemented it either way
     
  6. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure DTG would prefer to have it working exactly as it is in real life, and that they will add this to the "we want to do" list. The problem is there are many other important things that need development time too, and since only this route would benefit from this feature at the moment I think it won't make the top of list of things to work on soon. In the end it all depends on the development time cost / gameplay benefit ratio.
     
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  7. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    It is a bit of a shame that the first, and likely to be only for some time, Underground route doesn't have some of the signalling and operating differences that the underground has.
     
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  8. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    You hit the nail on the head! Have you been enjoying TSW2?
     
  9. argyle_smurf

    argyle_smurf Member

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    Since all LU trains are the same length, surely this could be fixed by moving the speed limit command one train length down the line from the image of the board?
     
  10. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Yep. Played an LU timetable and it was fun. The only thing that doesn't seem to work for me is the cab light. The switch does not seem to do anything. Maybe I need to do something else to turn it on?

    After that I played a timetable on SPG to see the differences with TSW1: CSX HH. The only drawback is that the textures inside the cab look a bit worse than they do in TSW1. Everything else is better, including performance and the feel of the train while driving. It really feels heavy now, and the dynamic brake works as I would expect (not how it did in TSW1). They added more trains and services in the line, so now I saw shunting at Cumberland when I arrived. It gives way more life to the route. I know this timetable is less realistic than what we had in TSW1, but it really makes the whole experience better and I think it is the right choice (at least for me).

    So yeah, I'm having fun ;)
     
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  11. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Active Member

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    Now, hold on. We were told that this was in effect a brand new game, these upgrades couldn’t be done to TSW2020. Substantial changes. A fresh start. “The Evolution of Train Simulation.”

    So, if you’re going to do a major rebuild, why not change how the game handles speed changes in-game? Why choose to launch with a route you KNOW you can’t accurately simulate because your game engine can’t handle a different way of handling speed increases? Why is the launch executable file STILL called “TS2Prototype”?
     
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  12. trigzd

    trigzd Active Member

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    With regard to the cab light, there's a switch in front of the secondman's seat that needs to be turned on and a switch behind the drivers seat for off, left, right or both lights. Hope that helps. Also not in the manual...
     
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  13. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I’m very glad you having fun with it. I also had a hard time getting the cab light working. When you turn the cab lights on there is a switch behind the drivers seat that is automaticity set to the “left” side of the cab. You can turn this to the right side or both sides. Hope that helps!
    Edit: The person above me already explained it. Thank you!
     
  14. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Why not change the way the game handles speed limits if it’s a new game? They already have the system from TSW for speed changes, as someone else stated, why would they take away time spent on more impactful changes to the whole of TSW2, just to create a new speed change system that will only be used on the Bakerloo line? My opinion is I love would not want them to do that until they have the time too.
     
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  15. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Active Member

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    That's a bit of a weak answer. If they're already making substantial changes to the game code that runs on top of UE4, such substantial changes that they can't do it as an upgrade to TSW2020, then why not try to work on making systems that are more modular and flexible for the future?

    DTG had already delayed the release two weeks to work on better implementing preserved content from TSW2020 -- demonstrating that, given community feedback/pressure/whatever you want to call it, they could in fact be granted more time to work on developing content -- so why not instead use that time for making more changes to the core game, and then work on fixing up and adding Preserved Collection content over a longer period of time? Why not use that delay for extra polish, like fixing the horrifically mismatched textures where the walls jut out at Embankment, or station names being cutoff halfway through because the banner is just one continuous texture applied down the length of the platform wall?
     
  16. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I’m sorry, but I’m enjoying TSW2. The speed changes on Bakerloo line and the “horrifically mismatched textures” haven’t been a problem for me at all. I do agree that there is more work that can be done, but I’m not going to criticize the way they handled TSW2 up until launch as I think they did a really great job and if those are the issues I’ll wait for a bigger hill to die on.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
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  17. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Whilst you might enjoy it in it's current form, it's always better if a game continues to challenge and improve on what already exists. Sometimes criticising is helpful for bringing genuine improvements in the future (if everyone said it was perfect, it would never get any better).

    Bakerloo was the opportunity for something completely new, with speed controlled signals, different speed changes etc. It would have been amazing if these could have been simulated, as it would have provided a genuinely new way to driving.
     
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  18. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I would argue that DTG has faced nothing but criticism since the launch of TSW and a lot of it was un-called for. Criticism is a great thing, in the case of TSW2 if you know the history of TSW and Dovetail, I can’t be more happy with how TSW2 turned out and how they have communicated with us. I would say the Bakerloo line is a new, fun experience and not having the different speed changes does not change that for me. You can always refer to the roadmap. It could be something they look into once they have the time. I don’t think it takes away from the quality of the game. As for a new way to drive, you should load up a service on HRR in the 422 during a blizzard and let me know if you had a new experience!
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
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  19. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Active Member

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    I am also enjoying TSW2. Enjoying the game, and critiquing DTG/commenting that I wish they had implemented some systems better, or had spent a little more time polishing the routes, are not mutually exclusive.

    Things like trains clipping through platforms, or less-than-stellar texturing, while they don't negatively affect the game in a way that makes it unplayable, show a level of sloppiness that has pervaded almost every TSW release since its original launch. Yes, they have a limited amount of time. Yes, they have deadlines. Yes, they have budgetary restrictions. I'm not pretending this game exists in a vacuum with unlimited resources. But if they really wanted to cement this as the next-gen train sim game, then... why let those details slip past?
     
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  20. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Good, I am honestly happy you are enjoying it and you bring up some good points. I do agree that things such as clipping through the platform does require some criticism, as to us it seems like an obvious bug to fix. I can’t say whether DTG missed this or didn’t have time, I don’t know what the reason is. I think the most important thing for us going forward is to see how DTG handle bug fixes/updates. I think we have reason to have skepticism but they have been saying things will change with how they handle things and communicate with us, since the June 9th announcement of TSW2 they have done a very good job with communication, these next couple of weeks will show us if they are going in the right direction, I am optimistic and enthusiastic to think things ARE changing with TSW2.
     
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  21. doc_woods

    doc_woods Active Member

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    It seems like a fairly big omission to me (+ the lack of the speed controlled signalling too). These are fairly core "operating rules" that they've failed to simulate. We all obviously have different views on how complete the simulation should be but this honestly like a very shallow place to stop.

    The trouble with the "only used on the Bakerloo line" argument is that, while these rules are unusual, they aren't unique. When it comes to the next route that needs them (or something similar) then exactly the same argument will be used: it's not worth doing these changes for one route.
     
  22. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I understand that they are core operating rules and we obviously do have different views on what makes this a simulation game. This conversation would be totally different if this was our first time finding out about it, if DTG hadn’t already addressed this multiple times before launch.
    I find it a little disheartening that you are assuming that. Isn’t it fair to say with work happening on all of the TSW2 content, that they did in fact not have time to change the speed limit on the Bakerloo line? Would you say that them being honest and up front about it is a bad thing? I understand if there is some skepticism from TSW, but this is a new game TSW2, and as we have seen in the lead up to launch, DTG are making a much better job with how it handles itself.
     
  23. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I don't think one person has complained about DTG not communicating the fact the speed signs and signals are not prototypical.

    This is more down to the fact that it would be nice if the features were simulated in a simulation game. You might consider TSW to be perfect (and that's perfectly fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion), but please understand that others will ask / expect more. If everyone had the same expectations in life, the world would be a very bland place.

    One of the unique selling points to TSW is that it's supposed to simulate as many locations as possible. And that's why it would be nice if the Bakerloo experience could be more personalised to the tube environment.
     
  24. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. In my opinion the TSW2 does a good job at giving the “Bakerloo experience”. Even without the speed changes implemented. I don’t think TSW2 is perfect, and it can be good to expect more. If the speed limit changes are holding TSW2 from being a real simulator in your eyes, we knew this information before launch and it’s reasonable to say they didn’t have time to change it while preparing TSW2 for launch. I would just suggest keeping updated on the roadmap Incase they decide to change it in the future. I think having a gripe with that issue is pretty unfair when you take everything in to account.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
  25. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I will try that next time I play. Thanks!
     
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  26. doc_woods

    doc_woods Active Member

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    Yes - it has been communicated honestly and that's good.

    The point I was making was more: historically they haven't been particularly good at bug fixes and back-porting features - I've always worked on the assumption that content won't be updated and any decision to buy (or not) should be made on the basis of features at launch. Therefore if another route gets made with similar signalling then the calculation will be "is it worth developing this for the sake of one route" (since it's unlikely to be put back into Bakerloo) and the answer is likely to remain "no".

    Anyway, clearly we all have different priorities and it's impossible to please everyone. In this particular case I'm in the "not pleased" group. However, it isn't the end of the world and so I'll stop arguing this now.
     
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  27. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I agree that we do have different opinions and that’s okay, I think we can agree that in the end we all want TSW2 to be great though! Hope you guys are enjoying it.
     
  28. Dominik Tuchowicz

    Dominik Tuchowicz Member

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    From console or casual player point of view, TSW2 is an extremely well made simulator.

    For folks like me, transport enthusiasts, 35y old, this game is not a simulator but arcade thing that tries to emulate train sim.
    Of course, there is a few safety systems, few switches and all that is essential to drive a train in proper fashion, but is extremely limited as we got some simulators in the past that were brilliant and completely free of charge made by communities.
    Graphics were immersive but very outdated, sounds were brilliant, feeling of the trains fine tuned, physics of accel / braking, announcements on platform and on train. To a point I feel more immersion on Bakerloo Line on more than decade older BVE than TSW2, due to just lacking of immersion beside of excellent graphics and yet I could argue that UE4 is a total crap due to lack of proper Anti Aliasing and Texture Filtering while old stuff got those properly although with older graphic.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2020
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  29. jackthom

    jackthom Member

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    Yes I’m guessing at the moment the command is issued at the same place as the sign and then the length of the train is used to calculate when its tail end is passing that point.
    I would have thought that having the actual command triggered one train length in advance of the sign appearing would do the trick.
     
  30. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Active Member

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    What is the new experience in the blizzard? Should the train drive more carefully, or we can still speed it pass the limit like always do and was in the arcade. Improvements are minor. But criticizing means that we care.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2020
  31. Dominik Tuchowicz

    Dominik Tuchowicz Member

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    Exactly as mentioned above.
    I feel like nowadays all new "simulators" are arcadey.
     
  32. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Never before have I seen somebody critisise a game on its launch EXE file.
     
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  33. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Active Member

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    It's such a brand spanking new game that it has the exact same executable file name as the original TSW. Do try to keep up.
     
  34. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Never before have I seen someone insult somebody else because they called out a ridiculous comment about launch EXE files.

    Congratulations, you've entered my block list faster than anybody else on this forum, faster than even Random Railfan.
     
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  35. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Member

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    I know I'm gonna get shot down for saying this but I've driven Bakerloo a couple of times now where I thought I'd drive to the LUL rules instead and accelerate as soon as I hit the new limit. On both occasions I still got the gold medal so I'm thinking the difference it makes to scores isn't too bad. It also meant keeping to schedule easily all the way through the journey too.
     
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  36. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much this. Just drive like you're supposed to and don't give a damn about the points.

    Of course, despite this, railway rules should be simulated properly in a train simulator. Hopefully it will happen in the future.
     
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  37. albatross365

    albatross365 New Member

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    I've noticed that speed limit reductions are brought in immediately but increases are once the entire train has passed the sign which is how I would expect it to behave.
     
  38. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    On the London Underground, a speed increase takes affect from the front of the train.
     
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  39. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Member

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    Not on the LUL it isn't..... ;) ;)
     
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  40. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I would guess there is a technical reason why the trains clip the platforms so much. It’s to ensure the train doors are close enough to the platform so the virtual passengers don’t fall down that gap real passengers are told to mind. I suspect a proper technical solution wasn’t implemented for the same reasons new signalling and speed limits tech weren’t. To make it work with the current passenger loading system, the train has to clip the platforms a little. That’s my guess.

    I think the target for Gold is deliberately set rather low so your speeding points deductions for driving prototypically or your lateness points deductions for sticking to the game speed limits don’t penalise you. I’m going to start speeding up from the board from now on to see if I can get anywhere on time.
     
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  41. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Active Member

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    The Underground sections I find are easy to keep time on, as per reality, you do come flying into the stations.

    It’s the Overground sections from Queens Park. I tend to lose 1-2 minutes everytime.
     
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  42. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Member

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    Glad my technique is liked by others. I've stuck to it since my original post although to be honest I've never been one for gaining as many points as possible. I prefer to just try and drive as prototypically as I can even if it means dropping points here and there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
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