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Bakerloo Line Pre And Post Stream Views

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by thundergaming11, Aug 13, 2020.

  1. trigzd

    trigzd Active Member

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    Especially when they come out with a big new flashy game so they can improve the base game engine to allow greater functionality for the future, and release that with a route which doesn't make use of a game engine improvement to add new gameplay features - like the signalling - because they can't do it 'in the time given'...which they set themselves as a constraint.

    Sometimes it very much feels like:
    'what can we do by this arbitrary deadline'
    'oh we can't do that'
    'Ah well nobody will notice if we don't bother'
    Instead of simply changing said arbitrary deadline to a point in the future where they have the things they think we won't notice and charging a little more for the time. Just like with how one of the Q&A's they felt it important to point out a clock, yeah it's cool you modelled a functioning clock but we've had functioning clocks since TSxxxx, why not show us something new that we can do as a direct result of this game engine upgrade...oh wait.
    The one caveat of course being the departure boards that are now somewhat functional which is REALLY nice. But that only happened because someone had some 'spare time'. Who'd have thought you could add something which provides SO much immersion with a bit of spare time...it's little niggles like this that add up to make a really ugly picture of why the price really has to be as low as it is and for expectations to be so high.
     
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  2. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely.

    Despite a concerted effort on the comms front, it still looks like the end product doesn’t match the tempered rhetoric.
     
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  3. olikas.g

    olikas.g Member

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    I think the comparison between TSW and MSFS is a good one. But the conclusion here is not what a lot of people would like to think. The machine generated part of FS is so hit and miss. Edinburgh castle is replaced with blocks of flats [1]. Weird artefacts on the surface [2]. Auto generated airport buildings smaller than a small plane [3]. The plane models, the clouds, and the scenery from the sky is absolutely stunning.

    Compare that to TSW which is a small studio modelling everything by hand, and scrutinised to the smallest detail. I checked some screenshots from WoS for comparison [4],[5]. Or getting stuck in scenery [6]. I don't feel the emersion factor is WoS any much higher than the stream yesterday. I also did check some Metropolitan line videos and they are not bad. But if I would apply the same scrutiny to that route, then the list of "bugs" would be a long list. But if I want to enjoy the game, I can in any of them. If I want to nitpick, then I can. To me none of the mentioned games feel like the real thing, so all of them are games simulating aspects of the real world.

    Could TSW be better? Oh yes, sounds are a hit and miss, draw distance transition could be much better, some buggy scenarios, more scenarios, etc... In streams Sam acknowledged all of these issues. The claim is that they are working on a long list of things. One thing is sure, I will only buy DLCs for what they are at release, and not for some future feature that may never come. If I don't like a DLC, I don't buy it. After release, there will be loads of videos on youtube and steam, so I can decide whether I like what I see. From yesterday, I definitely want the buggy passengers standing on top of each other or falling from the sky. That looks great fun, until the "funpolice" removes it. :)

    [1]
    [2]
    [3]
    [4]
    [5]
    [6] https://youtu.be/ahSSN2CG4Kw?t=1304
     
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  4. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I have most of AP's products and they are great but how many do they employ, not many? How many do DTG employ 150 is it? AP's overheads will be a lot less, he can probably set himself much more generous timescales and take more time over things.

    Would people pay more than £25/£30 for a train simulator? I would if it was for a very interesting route that I wanted with plenty of stock involved, I certainly wouldn't pay £60 for the Bakerloo line no matter how good it was.

    And it is a ridiculous comparison to Microsoft, they are absolutely huge by comparison and pretty much the world dominant software manufacturer. They have resources coming out of their ears!

    And, is making a train simulator easier than a flight simulator?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
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  5. Cyklisten

    Cyklisten Active Member

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    The tunnel darkness is an issue I think, I started to watch mid-stream with some last evening sunshine through my living room window and I thought that entire world just failed to load. I can't help referring to that old TML-game where driving through underground tunnels was a lot more enjoyable because I actually could see anything except my desk. But except this, sounds and lack of announcements, I did like the route in yesterdays stream, sometimes I just feel to drive a short, urban route like this. I hope these problems will be solved in some future update, It can't take that much work to fix these.
     
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  6. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Active Member

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    Worth baring in mind AP dedicate all their time and resources specifically for train simulator add ons.
     
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  7. AlexTheMole

    AlexTheMole Active Member

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    Yes well it all comes down to personal taste. As someone who is rather obsessed with all things London Underground, I obviously want it to be as right as possible and to me WoS3 came far closer to capturing the atmosphere than TSW2 does. For all it's faults at least WoS got the sounds right, instead of reusing sounds from a completely different type of train! And it had a fully working announcement system, which according to DTG is something they cant implement. And this is a game that came out 9 YEARS AGO! Hasn't technology moved on? Shouldn't these features be standard in train sim games by now? Do the DTG fanbois who cant stand anyone criticising their beloved company really not see that games nearly 10 years old having features still not present in TSW is just odd and smacks of laziness? Let's not forget it isn't just the Underground that has announcements, having a system like that in game could be applied to all sorts of modern routes.

    I get DTG has a long list of things they would like to do (how many more times is that going to be said on stream?) but maybe they should cut back on releasing broken DLCs one after another and actually work on the list? Then people would have a better opinion of the games and be more inclined to buy them. Quality over quantity.
     
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  8. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    thundergaming11, So do the train sim team at DTG!

    Look at this - tell me, which is better? This or the Bakerloo on TSW2



    ps No one is suggesting the Bakerloo should be £60. Had TSW2 been a proper, significant step forward then I think £60 would have been a fair asking price for the ‘new’ game - 3 routes and proper forward steps with the whole in game experience.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
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  9. AlexTheMole

    AlexTheMole Active Member

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    I'm not sure where this whole paying £60 thing has come from. The average price of sim games is around £30, but most sim games by the bigger DTG sized studios do a good job of capturing their subjects.

    If you paid £30 for a bus simulator game and the bus sounded like a bulldozer, handled like a sports car and had US style traffic lights in a German city setting you would be annoyed. But we are supposed to accept that in TSW?
     
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  10. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    It’s purely because that’s the price of MSFS, nothing more.
     
  11. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It was nowhere near that bad though, that is pure hyperbole! Even if you don't rate the Bakerloo line there are still two more routes, one route is normally the price for all three.

    I am no expert on the underground but people have moaned in the past that tunnels are not dark enough, now they are too dark! The sounds are a compromise, partly due to the pandemic so I believe, I agree the track sounds didn't come across as I would have liked, maybe that was the stream, I don't know. But it was still a nice looking route with a nicely modelled train, even though it is not one I am personally not that much interested in, I still think the complete package is worth the money, and if you don't think it is then the answer is simple.
     
  12. AlexTheMole

    AlexTheMole Active Member

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    Two more routes yes, one of which has already been played to death because it's only new for console players and another which is so short it'll only take 30 mins to get from end to end in the high speed train it comes with.

    People will always say that people who complain do it because they just want to complain but that just isn't true. There is nothing that would make me happier than the Bakerloo line being really good! I was so happy when I first saw there would be a London Underground route in TSW! Then as more details emerged my happiness just went down and down and the gameplay stream left me feeling cold. I've never felt as disappointed about any LU game/DLC as I did watching last night. But I'm still buying it, I'm still supporting DTG. That might make me a mug, but part of me wants to think DTG might actually improve things.

    Is the point of forums just to be full of sycophants, ignoring problems and praising every decision? Or is it a place of free expression where people can either praise or question why decisions have been made? I never said the Bakerloo was terrible, it's bland. Like many modern films it looks good while not having as much substance as it could do.

    Edit: And personally I don't really care that much about the darkness of the tunnels, that is very far down my list of possible complaints.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
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  13. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well if you read my post and other posts on the matter you would see that I too have expressed some disappointment and I have never suggested that people shouldn't express their feelings nor have I seen anyone else, I just merely put a point of view across. Still at the use of the word "fanbois" I am out of this discussion if that is the level it has descended to!
     
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  14. AlexTheMole

    AlexTheMole Active Member

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    I wasn't referring specifically to you with my fanbois comment, more in general to the people on this forum who do most definitely fall into that category. I apologise for not being clearer.

    Edit: I have changed my original fanbois comment, it was needlessly inflammatory.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
  15. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    [removed by Protagonist]
     
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  16. trigzd

    trigzd Active Member

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    I'll echo AlexTheMole , WoS3 WAS buggy as hell, BUT the sound was absolutely spot on, and despite those bugs you could still have an awful lot of fun playing around in it, and the announcements were really nicely done and implemented, especially at the time. Honestly, I've probably had more fun playing around in WoS3 with crashes on Windows 10 than I have in a lot of the TSW routes, because of how the AI is done the route feels alive and actually lived in and you have to stay on your toes for the signals because of that. Sure we didn't have things in that game like departure boards, working mirrors or monitors, but you still don't have working monitors here and the route (at present) just looks completely lifeless and devoid of character other than visuals. I would guess with the schedule being so tight that most people will only ever see green lights in front of them for the most part. And I don't believe anyone is saying negative things because we want DTG to fail and are entirely bitter from the lies that made us buy the first one, WE WANT DTG TO SUCCEED and to get THE BEST possible product available. We don't look at forums because we are sadists, we look at them because we genuinely want there to be improvements going forwards and we expect so much because we truly believe DTG COULD make an incredible game, if only they took a bit more time and care to make the details come to life!
     
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  17. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    With AP boost sounds are absolutely better on TS but graphically TSW (also without editor, enhanchments, third party boost) still win. Objectively!

    And run also over a 150$ console!
     
  18. AlexTheMole

    AlexTheMole Active Member

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    AP doesn't do a sound enhancement for the S Stock, those are the sounds it comes with from Just Trains.
     
  19. AlexTheMole

    AlexTheMole Active Member

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    Really TSW's biggest selling point is the fact it is on consoles, so console users can finally play a train sim game. For people on PC who still have the ability to play TS then the selling point is far less clear. Graphics aren't everything, there needs to be other things that make a game stand out. For new players of train sim games yes, but what incentive is there for the thousands who play Train Sim to "upgrade" to TSW? But anyway that is a whole other argument, not for this thread.
     
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  20. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    The only TS's biggest selling point is the editor.
    Really TSW's biggest weakness point is the lack of editor.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
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  21. AlexTheMole

    AlexTheMole Active Member

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    Even if TSW had the same editor as TS I'm not sure I'd consider it worth leaving TS behind and moving to TSW, especially while it has barely 1% of the content TS does and no steam traction. I play TS at least 4/5 times a week, I might play TSW once every few months. That is not due to lack of editor but lack of content. Early days still, hopefully years down the line TSW will have as much to offer as TS does. But we are going to need WAAAAAY more 3rd party stuff to get to that level!

    Edit: But as I said, this is getting a bit off topic.
     
  22. LTEcactus

    LTEcactus Member

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    I have TSW on PC, and I've uninstalled TS as I find TSW much more enjoyable, especially the frame rates are better, it's actually stable. And it's a lot more engaging to play with the first person mode.
     
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  23. Cyklisten

    Cyklisten Active Member

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    Why not have both TS2020 and TSW installed, I can play both depending on my temporary needs and preferences ;) For some reason I like M4/M6 for TS more than M3 for LIRR/TSW and then steam, swiss routes etc.
     
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  24. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    People keep using the excuse of “You’re getting X route and game for ONLY X amount of money” to try and justify the controversial quality of the final product.

    The thing is, I’d happily pay another £10 or so to get a PROPER experience of the Bakerloo Line. This includes proper signalling, as well as authentic and detailed sounds. What I heard in the stream was poor.

    Granted they had issues regarding recording sessions, caused by COVID, but a lot of sounds were missing and/or not sounding right as well as recycled (already mediocre) ancient TS1 motor sounds. Also, where’s the interior sounds, the clunk and clatter of the train going over joints and points, the roar of the train coming out of the tunnel? This is a big step back in terms of sound quality.

    This isn’t just unique the Bakerloo Line DLC. With DTG it’s a gamble as to whether the DLC is any good or not. There’s no consistency. It almost feels like one step forward and two steps back.

    “Set your expectations low” is just an excuse for DTG to set their standards low and get away with it.

    I want high and consistent quality DLCs for TSW 2. Will I ever get this from DTG or will I have to look elsewhere?
     
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  25. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Comparing rivalrous goods (physical objects like automobiles) with non-rivalrous goods (digital media like video games) is a fruitless effort and you'd best not try to use it as an economic argument lest you make a fool of yourself to those with degrees in business. It is an entirely different plane of cost-optimisation.
     
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  26. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Wow.

    Well, thanks for the schooling there Callum. Not that it’s even remotely relevant, but I’d best pop my own degree in business back in the cupboard then. Quite what a degree in business has to do with this discussion I really don’t know. Off topic slightly, but I hope it doesn’t escape you that many of the worlds most successful business people don’t have degrees in business, and many current examples of the worst managers out there have MBA’s in their back pockets.

    I do see, however, that you’re struggling to understand a very simple and basic analogy about how different scales and type(s) of operation should have no bearing on the end quality of a given product, or be an excuse for said product being released into a market in an unfit state. You’ll doubtless be aware of the perils of over-promising in your marketing and under-delivering with your product too.

    With all of that said, given that the analogy I’ve chosen seems too complicated for you, feel free to use your business degree to put it in easier to understand terms that we can all learn from. After all, we wouldn’t want anyone making a fool of themselves now, would we?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
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  27. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    I do love these forums.
    It’s as good as discussing the finer points of tantric demonology over software the price of a couple of pints.

    The expectations of enthusiasts can never be fulfilled.
     
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  28. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know about that. I think most of us would be happy if the ‘next gen simulator’ we were promised was actually better and more feature rich than what came before it.
     
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  29. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    The pleasure is mine.

    Cheers
     
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  30. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    The Bakerloo line. That whistle though. Is that honestly accurate? I thought it was a sample from an 80s Casio keyboard.

    I've ridden the tube many times and it's bloody loud. Not quiet. It's probably dark. But if a driver's eyes are accustomed to it, would it look that dark?

    I felt a little optimistic before I watched the stream. It kicked my hopes to the kerb.
     
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  31. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    To me it seemed that the stop markers were all too short, and not close enough to the CCTV monitors
     
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  32. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    After watching the stream myself then the Alan Thompson reaction video, these are my thoughts. Some may have been already said but..

    • Horn/whistle is god awful
    • Too dark in the tunnels
    • Not enough flange squeal
    • Passenger AI is still average (but that’s to be worked on)
    • More passenger AI in carriages is good
    • Need more passenger AI on platforms (but that’s to be worked on)
    • Passenger AI still in carriages when going to depots (but that’s to be worked on)
    • Stations look great
    • Signals need/should be correct and they’re not
    • Shame about the WCML but we knew this…
    • Feels like there should be more cab sway
    • Track loading in when entering station at Maida Vale
    • Stop point/markers are off at some stations
    After watching the live stream I must say, I’m a little underwhelmed in what I saw. But maybe that’s my problem and not DTG.. It has put a seed of doubt in my mind about a day one purchase though..
     
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  33. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    quick thing with the dark tunnels i always believed they used a high power torch for learning videos but you got to realise we are never going to mimic what are eyes see in real life to then a sim. i feel sorry for the sound team as i'm sure they know the sound can be allot better but from what matt was saying they had struggles when it came to there usual recording of trains
     
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  34. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    From a work point of view, why did they struggle? If you have the right kit, know how to use it, and have the source sounds available, then what is the problem?

    Something isn't quite right with all of this. Something seems off and I can't quite put my finger on the root cause.

    I watched the stream again, this time with the better half. She thinks it looks pointless. It's the darkness. All those new flashy graphics courtesy of unreal.

    It's like low quality work is acceptable but I have no idea why. Who's the apologist? Someone's giving the green light to these low low standards. Who is it?

    [​IMG]

    This isn't new scientific ground being discovered. It's something that DTG have done over, and over, and over, and over....
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
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  35. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    if watch the stream matt explained there weren't allowed to record the sound the usual way they usually do because tfl restricted them due to safety
     
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  36. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Okay.

    And there was absolutely no way to circumvent this?

    No possible way at all?

    So TSW2 launches with a Bontempi keyboard whistle sound effect for its Tube stock and that's okay, because it's difficult to do the recordings properly.

    I'm out.
     
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  37. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Active Member

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    They had limited access. That'll be down to time constraints, TfL health and safety and TfL allowing/not allowing DTG to do in the time they had with them. It's easy to say "why can't they just to this and that" but I think a lot of the time it's down to the licensing and how much data they can obtain with a limited time frame. I could be wrong but that's what I think has happened.
     
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  38. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    It also appears easy to blame someone else. In this case, it's TFL's fault. It's never DTG'S fault.

    Blaming it on Covid as well, is also a bit of a cop out. It may have had a substantial impact, but how long have these routes been planned and been worked on? I'll wager it's way before March.

    They have also managed to get reasonable sounds for other trains where they have openly admitted they have never visited the site and relied on community members and other sources. So, getting something acceptable on their own doorstep you wouldn't expect to be that difficult.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
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  39. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    well i could say try and record a vocalist with a Ribbon mic but 10m away from them. you would still get the sound but it wouldn't be the best
     
  40. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Are you a DTG shareholder? Why do you accept that something isn't right? Please refer to the hedgehog cake above.

    I'm with you mate, stuff has gotten ridiculous. I'm sitting this out entirely, it just does not deserve my hard earned cash. Simple as that.
     
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  41. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree, but we are talking about a professional company, so you would like to believe that any recording equipment they have access to should provide better quality sounds than someone stood on the end of a platform with a cassette recorder and hand held microhone (if people are of a certain age they will know what I mean) or their mobile phone and sound recorder app.

    The horn on the stream sounded like someone blowing one of those party blowers that unroll and roll up again!
    download.jpg
     
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  42. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    oh sorry longo i mistaken you for talking just about the train sound in general i don't know what the horn sounds like in real life so maybe will have a watch of some videos and compare
     
  43. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    To me the horn / whistle, and general ambience sounds seem lacking. The squeals that I've become accustomed to on the RL Bakerloo line just don't seem apparent when listening to the stream. It's odd as Matt said in a previous stream that the sounds were very loud. So I wonder if TfL have instructed them to make things quieter...
     
  44. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I’ve just rewatched part of the stream with headphones before commenting to check that I was giving a good reply. Apart from a distinct lack of rail clatter and rattling the sounds are great. There is plenty of rail squeal on the bends but it isn’t constantly playing, so maybe not perfect but also not annoying. On every train in TSW history, there are people complaining about the horn sound, and the complaints are always exaggerated. It’s not perfect on this train either but not to the point of ridiculous claims of party whistles and toy organs. More clattering and rattling required.
     
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  45. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    yeah would agree that i only encountered hearing clattering and rattling on corners so just increase that in general all around would be nice
     
  46. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    ???

    You've totally lost me here bud, are we watching the same stream?

    You might like things that aren't right, but I've lost interest entirely.
     
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  47. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Oh, and as an aside, for a real quality analysis of the sounds it’s better to wait until you can hear it properly without two people on streaming mics and all the associated background noise that come with that.
     
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  48. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Not all of us have the same perception on anything let alone sound. I know people that spend hundreds, if not thousands of pounds on leads and sound equipment for their homes, which to me sounds no better than my stock off the shelf system which came with the cheapest leads provided.

    It doesn't make my opinion any more ridiculous than yours.
     
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  49. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    yeah i would still hold my judgement until i hear it on my tv as i use a soundbar it may sound different same with my view on the new HUD i'm holding my judgement over it till i actually play the game. one thing i hope is the the cab sway is more obvious as i barely noticed it during the stream but that could be just me may re watch it again at some point during the day
     
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  50. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It’s never going to be perfect. That’s impossible, even with absolutely perfect recordings. This is game audio, which has to react to how you drive, so it’s a little more complex than just having a recording of a train playing while you drive, one perfect recording that does not react to how fast you are going etc. Apart from the clattering sounds, I think it’s been done really well.

    If you like only things that are perfect then you are always going to be disappointed.
     
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