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Bakerloo Line Vs Real Life

Discussion in 'PlayStation Discussion' started by ZeenozPlays, Dec 20, 2020.

  1. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Today, I uploaded a comparison video showing the difference between the Bakerloo Line in TSW 2, and in Real Life.

    Enjoy!

     
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  2. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The difference is quite baffling in Piccadilly Circus Station. They didn't add wires that would be there. The Northbound platform has a slight curve yet in the game, there is no curve. Also the track distance between the northbound tracks and Southbound tracks is much closer than in the game. So basically, Piccadilly Circus was modeled inaccurately in the game. How in the world did dtg mess that up if they use photos to replicate stations in the game to mirror it to real life. Also the PIS system is modeled inaccurately as well in the game to what it would be in real life
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
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  3. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    I agree. A lot of the routes in TSW are modelled quite inaccurately, it's just most people don't notice as they don't know the route well enough themselves. I just hope they don't ever do the midland mainline (my local) as I know I would find it really frustrating.
     
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  4. Nick Y

    Nick Y Active Member

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    They have part of the Midland line (Derby - Sheffield) on TSW21 on PC done by Just Trains.
     
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  5. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    When I was making this video, I was shaking my head in disappointment at the inaccuracies. I hope they go back and fix the mistakes/inaccuracies they made.
     
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  6. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. I'm not from London, but I've seen so many videos of the Bakerloo Line to know that some of the things in the game are just off. When it comes down to LIRR or even NEC, that's my home area, I can take one good look at the game and notice everything that is wrong. It's baffling how they call this an accurate and authentic simulator when they get so much stuff wrong. Crazy thing is, there are so many pictures and videos of the different routes that they can look at for reference, and yet they still end up getting the simplest of things incorrect.
     
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  7. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the Bakerloo is off, and not just the way it looks the sounds are really really poor. It should be bloody noisy but in the cab at Picadilly Circus in game it's dead quiet. It doesn't surprise me that you say the LIRR and NEC are wrong. I enjoy those routes in blissful ignorance as I have never been to New York so wouldn't know there is anything wrong with them. On the West Somerset railway which I have travelled on countless times, the two terminus stations, Bishops Lydeard and Minehead, are so badly modelled it's ridiculous. Buildings and roads in the wrong place, trees where there aren't any to name two things. As you say a quick google image search immediately shows this up so why DTG get it so wrong I'll never know.
     
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  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    That right there is the problem. They keep calling the simulator "accurate" when clearly they get so much wrong. LIRR timetable is wrong along with lighting and some station modeling. The Bakerloo line is pretty much modelled incorrectly since they didn't get the curve that would be in Piccadilly Circus added. PIS is not modeled correctly as well. Matt is always saying that they use images to make stations and routes but how in the world did they get that wrong. I guess they didn't use images for some parts of the route. It's not this route either that they have modeled inaccurately. I thought they modelled the Bakerloo Line correctly but I was clearly wrong. They should go back and model the route accurately this time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
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  9. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    That's the issue. People will never know something is wrong unless someone from the community lives in the area and points it out. Kinda like the LGV route. No one knew the Ballast and Catenary Wires were off until someone pointed it out. Then after the fact they say "Oh, but that's not what the cab ride videos showed" or something else when it's so clear that something is wrong. I understand we are in a pandemic and things have been difficult to see and go visit, but there is no excuse when those tools are available to you online. Not to mention that even before the pandemic, they've been getting loads of things wrong. Lots of people that have never been to the NYC area may not know that Woodside, Nostrand Av, Jamaica, and Penn Station are all incorrect. But some people do, yet when we point it out, they refuse to go back and change it.
     
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  10. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I knew from the jump that it was wrong when I saw those Speed Boards in the tunnels and that the signals turned green after the doors closed. I remember them continuously saying the cab ride videos online were using a flashlight, so they can't make the Headlights brighter. Yet, when you go to those specific cab rides, you can see clear as day in the tunnels even before they use the torch.

    "Accurately recreated" means any Real Life Operator, can come home, hop on TSW, turn the HUD off and make a perfect run. You can't do that if a building they use as a reference point for braking is gone.

    "Accurately recreated" means any Operator can look at, and analyze the sounds of a train in the game and say "Yup, that's right". You can't do that when the sounds for the LIRR M3 are so wrong.

    "Accurately recreated" means that a person who always takes the subway, whether it is in the same city, or a different one, can load into the Bakerloo Line, and hear some loud track noise/clanking, and say "Oh yeah, that's definitely right." You can't do that if it's completely quiet.

    So no, half of this game is accurate and the other half isn't. I love this game, and I really want to see it shine in a bright light, and show that it can have the best recreations possible, but we aren't there yet, and that really bothers me.

    I made a post recently, saying that I gotta give them their props for doing East Coastway right, that shows that they CAN do things accurately, so why isn't that shown across all routes?
     
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  11. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    East Coastway was done so perfectly in my opinion. The M3 does sound innacurate and Matt said in a stream on the M3 that it sounded so accurate which was baffling because that was not the case and he basically was lying to potential customers. I've seen cab rides on the Bakerloo line and the tunnel with the train's headlights are more brighter in real life than in the game. So the excuse they are making on headlights are unjustified. This is a great game but when they claim to use images and other things to make something as realistic as possible but that isn't the case in the final product for a lot of the tsw2 routes, it begs the question as to how they get things like track curves at Piccadilly Circus Station on the Northbound Platform on the BKL wrong. They seem to not be able to keep to there word. I just hope they go back and fix there errors
     
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  12. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    I doubt they will. Some would require remodelling the station and the line, which I reckon would be too involved.
     
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  13. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I've seen this debunked. Almost all the cabrides on Youtube had torches or other lights put so the camera could see ahead. In real life the lights really are pathetic and don't light much ahead
     
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  14. xblackwolf90

    xblackwolf90 Well-Known Member

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    Here's a Bakerloo line cab ride without the additional lights. The headlights reflect differently in game off the inside of the tunnel, but what you can see isn't all that far off:

     
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  15. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    What about the modeling of picidally circus for example. Are you gonna try to debunk the fact that they got it wrong because they didn't add a curve that would be in the northbound platform in real life. Are you gonna try to debunk the fact also that the PIS in the underground stations are wrong.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
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  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I quoted one specific thing, so no
     
  17. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    The Headlights Shine further IRL than in the game. Also, IRL, speed limit boards reflect the light from the headlights, making it easier to see them. The game doesn't do that.
     
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  18. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    They don't light much directly in front of the train, but they actually reach further and illuminate the speed boards.
     
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  19. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Guess the in-game Bakerloo Line will stay inaccurate... SMH
     
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  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I've seen that the speedboards in the tunnels should be reflective and they're not...
     
  21. flickyhecky

    flickyhecky Active Member

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    So glad this isn't 20-25 years ago, computer graphics have come a long way, it's still not perfect, so don't expect the game to be 100% accurate!
     
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  22. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it makes it difficult to see them while in the tunnels.
     
  23. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It’s easy to pick out a thing in the game and point out the differences. Have you ever considered how difficult it is to start from a completely blank 3D space and populate that with miles and miles of perfectly recreated scenery, from a limited asset package, within a short timescale, while implementing all the necessary frameworks for simulation within that space? And then do that underground. Probably not. Too difficult to comprehend. While the differences at Piccadilly Circus are very noticeable, when taken in context of the bigger picture it isn’t a huge issue. It looks a bit different when driving but you need to consider how it got like that.

    The added difficulties of making an accurate 3D model of a series of winding tubes underground can not be ignored. I recall someone commenting on a video when they could see beyond the tunnels from the cab of an ‘off the rails’ US loco showing surface level scenery and they asked why it was there. The answer to that is simple, navigation when making the route. In a blank 3D underground space, there are no reference points. To get the track even in remotely the correct place would have been a difficult and time consuming process, with multiple adjustments and rerouting needing to occur to get the tracks to meet up with the station models. The resulting gradients, curves and track layout isn’t going to be spot on. It never could be, nobody could achieve that on a game company budget. What DTG actually managed to create is pretty amazing.

    I like to think of this minute and thoughtless comparison of the simulated route and reality in a similar way to how one of my other interests is treated by the general public. Magic. It’s so easy for someone to slow down a youtube video of a magic routine and then claim that they know exactly how it’s done and then use that to criticise the performance as being lame, totally missing the point of the art-form in the process.

    DTG performed a near miracle in recreating Bakerloo but some people just like to go through it frame by frame and point out inconsequential differences and inaccuracies. These things don’t matter at all when you’re driving. Enjoy the magic instead.
     
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  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yep, I have. This is why I am not baying for blood, or saying they should stop what they're doing and fix everything. I understand the complexity of the systems involved and how things can be missed, or just not work
    That doesn't mean we shouldn't speak of the issues and acknowledge they exist.
     
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  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Look it's pretty clear that you don't really care if the environment is inaccurately modeled. Of course dtg aren't gonna get 100% of the environment accurate, but when they keep saying over and over again that they use images and other methods to make something accurate as possible, then there is a expectation from some customers like me for that to be the case. Something clear as a curve on the northbound platform of Picidially Circus should have been modeled and it's something dtg could not have missed mate especially if they use images to get an accurate representation of how a station is like in real life. The headlights on the 1972 tube stock being darker when they are a tad bit brighter in real life even though someone will try to argue otherwise which makes no sense. PIS systems being clearly modelled incorrectly at the deep tube stations as well. Sometimes you got to make sure dtg are keeping to what they say.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2020
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  26. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for taking over. I was going to have to write a whole essay :D. You said exactly what I wanted to in about 7 paragraphs less.

    They claim it is an accurate recreation. But when people actually go through to see if that statement is true or false, we're the"bad guys".

    The video I made was not to only show the inaccuracies, You seen South Kenton, ACCURATE.

    The 72 Stock Model, ACCURATE.

    So people need to stop assuming that we're only here to hate on the game and show that something is wrong and that we have no 3D modeling experience. NO. I guess it's ok to get a Countdown Clock incorrect, but when you look at it from another direction, it's like "Well why is it wrong? It seems simple enough."

    We want to see the best from this game, that is all.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2020
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  27. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It seems if dtg were to make the Piccadilly line and the underground stations were accurate and if the overground section was a complete desert, Stujoy would be 100% satisfied with that and tell people to "enjoy the magic of the 1973 stock instead of complaining about how incorrectly modeled something is". I'm glad I didn't have to make you write a whole essay lol
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2020
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  28. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I don't like to "personally attack anyone", but it seems that these arguments are used a lot "Oh, all you worry about is the negative" & "So if it was floating, you'd accept it?". Pretty sure it was a joke, but I'm just saying.

    We need to shy away from that. Everyone has their expectations, everyone has their limit. Being from a big city and seeing the subway all the time, watching so many videos of the tube, I'd expect it to be an accurate recreation of what I've seen.

    Even some Londoners, say "There are so many inaccuracies along this route. How do you forget a curve in a station?"

    Just cuz you point it out doesn't mean you don't like the route. I care more about the sounds than the inaccuracies with it's current design. The current design of the line is accurate enough, for now, it's perfectly acceptable. But that doesn't mean we don't want to see them do better.
     
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  29. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I do care but I also understand. You have to look at it in the context of what it is. Expectations are too high for the accuracy of the route scenery. There are bigger issues with the simulation not working and timetable and scenario content not being playable to be worrying about a curve in a platform being slightly wrong. That does not affect playability and is only an issue if you set out to look for it. That’s the point of my post above, the actions of deliberately setting out to find things that are wrong.
     
  30. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    So you would tell a Bakerloo Line operator, who has been working on the line for over 15 years, that a curve in a station they always stop at doesn't matter? Yes, there are other things, but the track layout being accurate is definitely one of the most important things.

    As I have said before, I care more about the sounds, but that doesn't mean we aren't going to look at everything else.

    I don't load up the Bakerloo Line to search for bugs and inaccuracies, I load it up to experience the hustle & bustle of the Underground, which is another thing they need to work on. I want a realistic experience on the game's adaptation of the underground. The other day, when getting the pics for this video, I got on the train at Piccadilly Circus and took it all the Way to Queens Park. I loved that ride, the only thing that I can say that I didn't like was the non-existing track noise and announcements.

    The current state of the Bakerloo Lines design (in-game) is acceptable, but I do think they should look at this and at least try to go back and fix it. If they can't, too bad, we'll deal with it.
     
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  31. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Because they say they that they make things as realistic as possible so of course some people are gonna have high expectations on that. You say something to a customer then they will expect that to happen. They did that to themselves mate
     
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  32. flickyhecky

    flickyhecky Active Member

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    What's wrong with the PIS? Is it the long waiting times? The lack of messages on it? The fact that it stays on all night once the last train has left? I thought they were pretty realistic.
     
  33. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Number 1 and 2, plus the general design of it.
     
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  34. rpb1966

    rpb1966 Member

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    I think the only thing that strikes me, is how much more traffic coming the opposite direction, opposed to the game. It is a shame but I guess they do this to keep the frame rates down.
     
  35. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I actually think its because of the in-game dispatcher. They are working towards a fix to add more services to the line.
     
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  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention they were modelled incorrectly in the deep tube stations as to what they would be in real life
     
  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    They said in the stream today that the extra Bakerloo line services may not come at all because of issues they are having which is a concern. I do hope it does come otherwise it would be a shame
     
  38. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I'll cut them some slack. They explained why it's difficult, and it might break other things. Yes, it would further improve how the route feels in-game, but if it's that much trouble, drop the project and move available resources to other things... like another underground route with those services already included or dispatcher upgrades.

    Imagine the dispatcher gets an update and we have real train traffic along the line causing us to wait up to 2 mins at some stations. Perfect.
     
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  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I hope the extra services come. If not then oh well. I would love to have my train held up in some stations. That would be cool
     
  40. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    *Coughs* They HAVE to give us some dynamic events if we were to ever get an NYC Subway DLC. They would consist of:

    Sick Passenger: DELAYS
    12-1 (Passenger Struck): DELAYS
    Signal Problems: DELAYS
    Mechanical Issues: DELAYS
    Disruptive Passenger(s): DELAYS
    Passengers Holding Doors: DELAYS

    And we can play a different automated announcement for each one.
     
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  41. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    That is a must for the nyc subway because that does happen often and we need announcements
     
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  42. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Track Noise and Audible/Inaudible announcements, the most noticeable (sounds) of the MTA...
     
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  43. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed.
     
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  44. welshredskin

    welshredskin Member

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    Even though I got TSW2 on release day, this weekend was the first time I've tried Bakerloo.
    Been too busy with German routes and latterly redoing NTP and TVL.
    Now, I'm aware of issues raised in this thread and others but truth be told I'm loving Bakerloo. Yes it's missing announcements, although I did hear an announcement saying "mind the gap" earlier as I was doing the collectibles, and it's missing track noises, yes stations aren't modelled with 100% accuracy and so on, but damn it runs well on PS5, I've had one stutter in 2 days, it looks really nice, and it's a complete change from the other routes I've been playing. It just feels so nice to drive. Plus I used to live in London and it just takes me back to those times
    So call me naive but despite the issues I'd like to thank DTG for this route.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
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  45. Lenwigg

    Lenwigg Well-Known Member

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    I like it a lot also and I think it is great fun trying to keep up with timetable.
     
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  46. welshredskin

    welshredskin Member

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    Trying to keep up with the timetable is indeed a lot of fun and very satisfying when you nail your braking.
    I also really enjoyed the Taking Stock scenario, it looks beautiful at night which I find atmospheric.
    I just really like this route
     
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  47. Gronk Honker

    Gronk Honker Active Member

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    Bravo sir. Well said.
     
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  48. oscarollie86

    oscarollie86 New Member

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    I'm new here, but I'm not new to train simulator, using since 2012. I think what they've made here is really beautiful. I'm no longer using a pc but a ps4 pro in the comfort of my living room. As well as driving, I've been riding along the line as a passenger, exploring and hunting collectibles, and keeping an eye on the live displays to know how long I've got until the next train arrives. I think they've done a top job and I couldn't be happier!

    Also has anyone else noticed this advert? who knows but 2021 will be a good year if I get a black 5 in TSW2! :love:
     

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  49. Tanglebones

    Tanglebones Member

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    Couldn't agree more. Not only is the Bakerloo line the whole reason why I bought TSW2, I also bought a new computer just so I could run it. Are there inaccuracies? Of course there are. I do get why some are displeased by this, truly, but as a casual player it is a bit dispiriting to read these forums and see all the negativity and criticism in post after post, usually from the same half-dozen individuals. I can only imagine what it's like for the dev team that has to read this day after day.

    I think DTG are doing a fantastic job, overall, the Bakerloo line especially, and really do see the magic mentioned by Stujoy above. But what do I know, I'm just a heretic - on the Bakerloo line (only), I turn off everything I can (HUD, AP, next signal, next speed change, objective marker), totally ignore speed limits and fly through the tunnels at top speed like I'm being chased by Tam O'Shanter's witches, and screech to a halt in the stations like I've got a drink in each hand. Good fun, lol.
     
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  50. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing wrong with criticizing the game as long as it's constructive. The whole point of criticism is so future content can be improved. If everybody just kept their mouth shut on things, nothing would be improved. There is also nothing wrong on looking at what dtg got right in a route and what they got wrong in a route when their marketing team says that they model routes as realistically as possible. When they say that then there are some players like me who expect that to be the case. Something as simple as a curve at Piccadilly Circus station on the Northbound platform should've beem there. They use images to model routes as well so they couldn't have missed it. Why they didn't model it properly is anyone's guess at this point.
     
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