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Baseless Speculation Thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by raildan, Aug 16, 2018.

  1. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well unless you work for DTG undercover (which is a very good disguise if so) I don't see how you can know more about DTG's plans unless someone is leaking them to you! I don't think anyone is not interested in what you have to say, it is an interesting discussion but for some reason seem very keen to tell us the editor isn't coming!
     
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  2. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    To be fair to Digital Draftsman the whole basis of this thread is making baseless speculation. Hence the title. However, no one should be spreading information like it’s a fact if it’s not.
     
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  3. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Which means you would have to have a contracted interest somehow, which negates just about everything you have ever said... Clarification?
     
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  4. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, however he is hinting that he may have inside knowledge or he is trying to give credence to his views/speculation by suggesting that there is a basis to his views or that he wants people to think there is.
     
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  5. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I don't work for DTG, nor do I have direct contact with anyone at DTG. This is the baseless speculation thread after all, one can receive all my posts as baseless.
     
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  6. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Active Member

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    For just baseless speculations you do generate a lot of hot air tbh.

    And for a further time let me tell you that the BusSim18 Editor is just a plain, not touched UE4 standard editor. TSW editor will be a whole different thing compared to that.
     
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  7. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I might be wrong, but I was under the impression Bus Sim 18 had additional tools intergrated into the standard UE4 Editor, including road network construction tools which are not part of the default UE4 Editor. Read the modding kit docs here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/145HmPFdIWdLTnIr6GHrecBjGIC84jRUgQLQUMtY9J4Q/edit

    Anyway, next US DLC.

    Cajon Pass: The Southwest Chief

    Includes P42, Superliners, UP AC4400CW and UP SD40-2, plus some freight cars.
     
  8. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    Baseless Speculation Thread, not Baseless Claims Thread. You weren't speculating, you were leading on how you knew more than you could say.

    At this point, if it's getting to a "I know more than most" phase, that's not speculation anymore....
     
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  9. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Read into it what you like, I've stated all my posts are baseless, and they are.
     
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  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Which either means you DON'T know more than you let on, or it's second hand and you only know what that other person is telling you.
    Either way we all know that you think the editor will solve a lot of problems, without representing the issues it brings in third party unsupported DLC which causes no end of headaches over time
     
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  11. Tomas9970

    Tomas9970 Well-Known Member

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    I believe that these are just plugins but I could be wrong.
     
  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Nothing in the docs talk about amending existing content. You can add to, but not change existing from what I could gather. Either way, the editor will cause as many headaches for the end user as it fixes.
     
  13. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    So anyone have any baseless speculation on what the next US route could be? Do you think we’ll stay in New York or venture off somewhere else? Do you think we’ll get a freight only route? Would love to here everyone’s thoughts
     
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  14. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    ...

    ...I'm staying out of this.

    Cajon Pass (San Bernadino- Victorville) is possible, but I'm not sure about it- it is technically a BNSF route, after all. UP operates some trains over it, but not many because they have their own line running next to the BNSF one over much of the pass (but not all the way to Victorville- it heads off towards Palmdale without a good place to end the route).

    We could see some part of the Amtrak Capitol Corridor, too. That would be a route not available for TS19 and containing extensive passenger and freight. A short segment of the route like Oakland- Martinez could work ok.

    Or they could do another route in the East, who knows.
     
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  15. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Active Member

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    You need to differentiate between editor plugins and editor source code. BusSim18 uses just editor plugins or just blueprints for their added tools. It is the same as when you buy a tool in the unreal asset store (like the instance tool) and install it to your standard UE4 editor. The TSW editor uses changed source code to be what it is. That code implements features that the standard UE4 editor does not have at all. And implementing such stuff is a way different path that just using the standard editor with plugins.
     
  16. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Has any other developer changed the source code of the UE4 Editor and then distributed it through the Epic launcher?
     
  17. Tomas9970

    Tomas9970 Well-Known Member

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    Studio Wildcard did that for the Ark development kit.
     
  18. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I notice the dev kit was released whilst the game was in early access, two years or so before the game was officially released. It also looks like it was developed by a group of Indie developers with a similar number of developers to DTG. That to me begs the question how Studio Wildcard managed to the release their dev kit two years before their game released but DTG are struggling to release their dev kit two years after their game released.
     
  19. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Active Member

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    You just dont know what the changes were exactly. So stop comparing them right now because it is useless.
     
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  20. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    What is a useful a comparison then?

    We're two years post release and the closest we've come to seeing the Editor is a live stream of the in-house TSW Editor which has been in existance for three years already. I'm genuinely trying to understand where people are getting their faith in DTG from. It seems that the only way I can believe it's ever going to arrive is to disregard all the delays, the missed targets, the lack of updates, the comparisions with previous train sim titles, the comparisions with other UE4 titles and the fiasco with the cancelled Flight Sim World just days after DTG claimed it was a flight sim platform for the future. I just can't disregard all that, there are too many red flags, and yet no one else seems bothered.

    After the public beta was announced, based on the evidence at the time, I said that there wasn't going to be a public beta before Christmas, and as usual I got downvoted, then lo and behold DTG cancels the public beta. At least that shows that downvotes don't necessarily mean I'm wrong.
     
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  21. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I highly doubt that. You aren’t “in the know,” stop pretending like you know everything.
     
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  22. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    It's baseless speculation on what the next route will be...

    ;)
     
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  23. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It’s not like you said, “I think the next route will be...” or something like that. You just came out and said so confidently, “The next US route is...” That isn’t speculation.
     
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  24. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Active Member

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    Seems you know something a not involved person should not know or you are guessing. And your guesses are wrong.
    Simple, some people just know more that you guess.

    Dont compare TSW with ARK or FSW. Totally different things at least. And as long as you just know nothing exactly, please stop making users think the wrong way on top of your speculations. And all you said about the editor and how it goes is just speculation and guesses. Nothing that helps anyone yet. So please stop it and wait for the editor as all others do too. As a 3th party i have the patience to wait for it. So why not you? Common...
     
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  25. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Active Member

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    As much for you, Anthony. To read you, it looks like you work at DTG.
     
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  26. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    The following is true and doesn't come from any insider knowlege: The in-house TSW Editor has been in existance for three years, it's how they created CSX:HH which was released in Beta in 2016, so the in-house TSW Editor has been in existance for at least three years at this point. The version of the Editor in the live stream was the in house version and all the functionality shown was that which would have been needed to create CSX:HH. So we haven't actually seen anything of the public Editor. Now perhaps Matt used the in house Editor because it was more convenient for the live stream and the public version exists and is just as functional, but that doesn't negate the fact we haven't actually seen so much as a screenshot, let alone a demonstration of how it'll package content etc

    I spent several months in 2017 (full-time) creating UE4 content on the belief that the original target of a 2017 release would be met. I have a whole host of scenic assets ready to go, which I invested a lot of time in, so that compounds my frustration at the persistent delays and lack of infomation. I wouldn't mind a delay if I knew the reason why and was kept up to date with the progress, but DTG say nothing.

    There wouldn't be any need for speculation and guesses if DTG were open and honest about the situation. The vast majority of people who have created payware content for Railworks/TS, myself included, from which DTG profited, have been completely stonewalled and ignored. I frankly think it's a disgusting way to treat people who have helped in a huge way to contribute to the development of Railworks/TS and DTG's success over the years.
     
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  27. Louwe

    Louwe Member

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    r
    Not for you personally meant jeannot41 but it fits well on your reaction :). I wrote somewhere that you can 'complain, as long as it doesn't get out of hand'. It actually happens here. People are now going to play on the person and that is not going to work out. On some other sites you have a moderator who, when things get out of hand, puts a lock on the theat. I don't know if that is possible here, but let's make sure that it doesn't happen, so that we can keep writing down our thoughts and opinions. Moreover, this is a speculation threat ;-)
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  28. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Active Member

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    Of course we have seen it. You didnt followed the stream right, so try it again and we could discuss further.

    All the rest of your post is pure speculation and guesses again. I think you never built something for a game, so you cant know how such things are getting done without specialized editors in first place.
     
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  29. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    One of the first things Matt says in the Editor live stream is "the version of the Editor I'm running is the internal version", I don't see how it could be any clearer. 38 Seconds into the stream: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/348906661 So no, we haven't seen the public version of the Editor.

    One game I've worked on is currently sitting with over 12,000 positive reviews on Steam. I also produced some of the earliest DLC on Steam for Railworks, after selling the rights to RSC, much of that content has been used in other DLCs which are still on Steam. Right up to this day I still produce TS DLC. That said, I've probably spent more of my time working in the field of engineering, including project managment on the railways. So I'm not coming from a position of inexperience.
     
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  30. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Active Member

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    .. that said, i dont understand even more why you post so much hate. Just wait for the editor, thats all. You should have the needed patience.
     
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  31. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    I know I was gonna stay out of this, but here's what I have to say here...

    I think the idea that the editor has been or will be cancelled is... unlikely. First off, I don't think they'd market this so strongly if they aren't going to release it, but to be fair, that doesn't mean much, considering Flight Sim World's marking straight to the end. More importantly, though, I think Dovetail understands the importance of an editor and how profitable it can be. Just look at TS- they're publishing quite a few 3rd party addons. They can sell scenario packs, but the user can download their own from the workshop, making DLC have more value and making people more likely to buy them. There are also 3rd party routes and scenarios that require extra DTG DLC, which again benefits Dovetail directly. I think they get this, so even if development is going painfully slowly, it's probably still going.

    THAT BEING SAID, I respect Digital Draftsman's opinion here and I think the should be allowed to Express it and his evidence for it on here. Yes, some of the "evidence" is kind of ridiculous and yes, he does seem to be just trying to hate on DTG sometimes, but I still think this counts as baseless speculation (with some very, very loose evidence, just like other posts on here), and thus I'm fine with this.
     
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  32. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Member

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    Have to say I'm mildly curious which early DLC's you were involved with in Railworks
     
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  33. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    DD,

    I’m of the belief that the editor is coming, but I totally respect the questions you’re asking. I’m not sure everyone understands the concept of ‘baseless speculation’, or an open debate. It agree that it does seem odd that the mantra for the editor is ‘slow and steady’ to make sure it’s right, whereas the same care and attention doesn’t seem to go into the actual game.

    Please though, tell us at least some of the work you’ve done for TS, as it would hopefully put to rest some of these accusations that you’re making it up. Equally, if you are making it up (and I don’t believe you are) then that’s a bit sketchy to say the least. There’s a bit too much playing the man and not the ball going on for my liking.

    That includes the contributor to this thread who likes to screenshot or link your posts and then slag them off on Discord where you have no right of reply. That, imho, is bang out of order.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  34. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I don't doubt the DD has produced content for TS and I am sure has much experience in producing digital content. However baseless speculation doesn't include hinting that you may have some inside knowledge which then looks like you are trying to give credence to your assertions! I agree with your last point.
     
  35. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely fair comment. I suppose it could also be that he said it, and has then effectively retracted it for fear of dropping someone in it who has said something that perhaps they shouldn’t have. Only DD knows the answer to that, and as this is a message forum there is no way for the rest of us to tell.

    I wholeheartedly agree though that making things up to back up your argument is rubbish, should that have been the case.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  36. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Open debate is fine. Endless, might be different
    I believe the point has been made that some people think there have been undue delays in things, but to my mind the constant drone of why's wherefores and so on is actually non-productive.
    Of course it seems that any speculation is non-productive where DTG are concerned but tolerance for repetition ends up with deaf ears
     
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  37. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    It swings both ways though does it not?

    “It’s coming”
    “Matt said”
    “I heard on Discord”

    It’s boring, and it is ALL speculation.

    Where TSW is concerned there is a (deliberate?) information vacuum that leads to endless going round in circles with people (and I include myself in this, despite my best efforts) dredging up the same points and arguments time and time again. Whilst DLC gets released with obvious and immediate bugs that even the most cursory QA would have picked up, I find it hard not to question this relentless pursuit of mediocrity that I’ve paid money for.

    That aside, I believe that the two things that would help immensely is, firstly, a fundamental change in the way DTG share information about their products, and the way they engage with their community. Everything has to be a massive secret with “I don’t know about that”, “I can’t tell you about that” or “I’m not allowed to say that” what we hear most.

    Secondly, the editor. That alone would give everyone something new and optimistic to talk about, use and produce content with. Whilst I don’t share Digital Draftsmen’s view that the editor is never coming, I do wonder why it keeps slipping so much. Since the statement before Christmas it’s just fallen under this veil of secrecy as I mentioned in point 1. That in turn leads us back to the same merry go-round that we’re all so bored of.

    I guess that by posting the above, I’m entirely proving my own point!

    :|
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  38. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Many companies do not reveal their plans in many sectors of industry.

    If you go back a few years when DTG/RSC announced projects in advance you then got lots of comments from people complaining that project X was late or it must have been cancelled and "why do RSC announce things in advance and then don't release them when they said they would". It still happens today to other developers if they announce things in advance. I suspect they don't reveal too much in case they have to or want to change their plans or find that something is going to be very much delayed due to some reason.
     
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  39. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    No. It doesn't swing at all because there is nothing at the other end pushing back, ie everyone here knows that DTG only release info when they need to. We could speculate as to the reasons why on that but again that would be pointless bashing of both DTG and several people on this and other forums who can't let go of things...

    I don't know ANY company which does what people are asking of DTG. People put out names of inconsequential software or games that take two years to build or basic non-related sims where there's an editor (which can't edit, only add) and so on. And the other point is that DTG have shown that they're not going to be putting information out. They won't do it no matter how many words people write on the subject, so what's the point in writing the words time and again.
    It would almost be easier to have a sticky entitled "why isn't the editor coming" and restrict all talk of it there...

    Really? I've spoken about the editor as well and how it will produce problems, badly working DLC and end up like TSx where you can spend hours downloading DLC from all over the place and still not have drivable scenarios. Funny enough I see the same people downvoting such things but it's true. The editor will be great for some, and will also introduce a lot more complexity in requirements so won't be a panacea for everyone...

    > ie everyone here knows that DTG only release info when they need to
    Exaclty, the same answer to the same question, no matter how many times or in how many words the question is asked
     
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  40. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Then close these forums down then. They’re utterly pointless.
     
  41. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Depends on what you think the forums are FOR.
    If you think they're a means of contacting DTG to get anything onto their radar, then that's proven inaccurate
    They've generally worked out to be a way of people into the software being able to speak to each other, give tech support and get news releases from DTG, but I haven't seen anything much feeding into them from here.
     
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  42. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I came on here as I am excited about the simulator and wanted to chat about it and associated DLC with other like minded enthusiasts. There are few posting on the TSW section on UKTS and on the TSW section of one of the other forums I looked on it just seemed populated by a very small handful of bitter people who just seemed to be on there DTG bashing.

    So the forums aren't pointless and there are some interesting discussions but I don't think we can expect DTG to change the way they communicate frustrating as it might be at times.
     
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  43. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    I understand why DTG are reluctant to announce content (in this case the editor) that is still heavily in development because people will complain about it if it doesn’t come soon. A great example is when DTG merely mentioned multiplayer back when the game was CSX Heavy Haul. They didn’t even commit to anything, but now you see people complaining about how multiplayer isn’t here yet. I don’t know if anyone here knows TML Studios, but they announce projects such as their new Berlin Bus Sim and then don’t release any news on it for another year. It’s been like 2 years since they first announced it and there’s still no sign of release. So in the case of the editor with DTG, it would’ve been better for them not to say it’s coming in the "new year" because now everyone is quoting that and interpreting differently. Let’s just all agree that the editor is Coming Soon™
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  44. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I think what the problem is, is that there’s fundamentally a never-ending circle of the same things being said.

    People ask on live streams X question, but it’s always the same “I don’t have that information right now/we can’t release any information at this point, please wait/contact us via the official communication channels.

    Then of course people ask the same questions on these forums, but most of the time the answers go unanswered.

    One thing in particular, the editor. There has been very little information or a lack of consistency in information about it, despite it, apparently, having good progress, according to the latest Studio Update.

    The only way we get information about the editor is through Studio updates which, ironically, have been failing to be published each month and are often late to be published.

    There’s only so much patience people have after being told it’s coming ‘soon’ countless times.

    I’m not asking for a specific date or anything, I just want consistent information and updates about it and not left in the dark which causes us to speculate.
     
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  45. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    This what I don't understand. In November the Editor was apparently ready for an open and closed Beta before Christmas, this announcement was around the same time as the Editor live stream. If the public Editor was in state where it was ready for a closed and open Beta why wasn't it featured in the live stream? If the closed Beta has been completed, as Dimitri claims it has, why haven't they done another live stream showing route building in the Beta version of the public Editor?

    We have seen absolutely nothing of the of the public version of the Editor in the two years since release, nothing at all, not even a screenshot. Everything we have seen is from the internal version. Yet people still believe that it's coming along great and DTG are just taking their time making it perfect, the same way they took their time to get the physics perfect on CSX:HH and GWE, the same way they took their time making the PZB perfect on RT.

    If there's one thing DTG are known for, it's taking their time making their products perfect for a bug free release... :cool:
     
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  46. Rail Master

    Rail Master Active Member

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    You mean PZB correction?
     
  47. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well show us the evidence (not hearsay) that the editor isn't coming, which is what you keep telling us?
     
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  48. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I can't prove a negative. Why not show me evidence that it is coming?

    The only evidence is that DTG say it's coming. But DTG also said Flight Sim World was a platform for the future and two weeks later cancelled it. They also said we'd have our hands on the Editor in 2017 and 2018, yet we didn't. So their word doesn't hold much weight.

    I'll believe it's coming when I have evidence to support that belief. Until then, the lack of evidence of its existence and multiple missed targets indicates it isn't coming, so that's the belief I'll hold.
     
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  49. keksman

    keksman Active Member

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    Reading comprehension = 0 for you? You do know what a forum is mainly made for do you?

    And whats up with all you idiots constantly trying to shutdown discussions? You are free to ignore posts of people who have a different view on TSW with proper arguments. Better leave your fingers off the keyboard if you have nothing meaningful to add to the discussion.
     
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  50. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    That is a straw man argument, who is trying to shut down debate? It could be said you are and those others who come out with that mantra! There are posts on this forum which have explicitly told people to stop being positive when they have made comments in favour of TSW.

    Keep repeating that the editor isn't coming when we have been assured it is, is not a proper argument.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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