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Br 155 On Rsn

Discussion in 'Known Issues & Bug Reports' started by Dave Mel, Feb 19, 2020.

  1. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

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    When are you going to sort the audio out when going through tunnels with this engine, because its crap. i wont bother putting a ticket in because this was reported ages ago when this engine was first released. So im just probably wasting my time
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
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  2. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I was really very disappointed by this, when I bought RSN and the 155 recently. It's utterly disgusting that it hasn't been fixed. I bought it assuming that after a number of years, these bugs (reported just after launch) would have been fixed.

    Maybe the community needs to run a public bug list, and keep it prominently displayed on the Forum, so people can choose whether or not to buy DLC?
     
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  3. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    Not having the loco or the route I can't test this but here's something that helped a little with some of the misbehaving sounds on my machine - 2 tone horns etc.

    In the audio menu - Leave the master volume at 100. Turn the FX down to 80. Set the ambiance to zero.
    Try the 155 and see (hear) if this makes a difference. If it perchance does, try increasing the ambiance level a little at a time. Perhaps knocking the FX up slightly to if needed. In fact tweak to suit.

    What it seems to do is lower the less important sounds so that more important sounds have priority in the sound channels. You only really need to hear the cows mooing when on foot. :)

    Worth a try anyway.
     
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  4. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    You can't do this on PS4. (Although - I am now half-tempted to re-check this....).

    EDITED TO ADD: I had a tinker with the sound settings, and no, all sound cuts out in all tunnels, and the sound returns when you leave the tunnels. You can stop in the tunnel, get out, and then walk around in silence, walk out of the tunnel and your footsteps return, walk back into the tunnel hearing footsteps - get back in the train, with all noises running, but then after a few seconds of moving all sounds cut out again, until you leave the tunnel. There are a lot of tunnels on RSN.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  5. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    You can - there actually is an Audio menu on TSW PS4 - I've literally never been into it before. Might have to give the tweaking a try.

    Still doing it for now, though. Crackle crackle silence... Every. Single. Time.

     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  6. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    I think we can do this on PS4. I might try to improve the overbearing sound of the cement wagons on Tees Valley. The sound of them doesn't fade in as the train approaches, it suddenly goes to full volume and stops abruptly before they're out of sight. I was told by support that this was because of limited sound channels.
     
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  7. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it's due to limited [ability of the programmers to effectively use the available] sound channels.
     
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  8. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    Yep you can, I'm a PS4er. ;)

    Oh dear. Well as I said worth a try. If it helps balance out the the overall sounds it might help elsewhere.
     
  9. Callum B.

    Callum B. Active Member

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    Interesting. As of a recent update (maybe the Baby Bullet update?), I hear that same cracking sound when entering tunnels on Peninsula Corridor (on PC) but only for a second and everything is fine; it doesn't cut out entirely. I thought it was just my somewhat dated hardware, not a known thing. Although I do know that this is a PS4-specific subforum, can anyone here test for a similar effect on PIC?
     
  10. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Interesting effect. Definetly not the loco itself. Yes, it seems only this loco that causes that problem, but the problem seems to be something with a max possible volume before PS4 passes out any audio until the volume comes back to normal. Thats what the crackle before the silcene tells to me. Could be that the loco sound is too loud at all for the reverb effect on PS4. So the way to fix that is to go and check the reverb first, not the BR155 since that loco works fine on the other plattforms. And as i know there is simply no difference between the assets of a loco DLC on the three plattforms (PC,X,PS4) at all.

    I can't tell you why no one is investigating it. Maybe its a way larger problen than you guys here can imagine. No excuse, for sure, but sometimes there are problems you simply cant fix without getting your hands on all the other content too. Maybe thats not possible yet to do.
     
  11. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I had a tinker with the sound settings, and no, all sound cuts out in all tunnels, and the sound returns when you leave the tunnels. You can stop in the tunnel, get out, and then walk around in silence, walk out of the tunnel and your footsteps return, walk back into the tunnel hearing footsteps - get back in the train, with all noises running, but then after a few seconds of moving all sounds cut out again, until you leave the tunnel. There are a lot of tunnels on RSN.


    It is definitely just this loco - the DB BR 155, on RSN on the PS4
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  12. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Could you try to shut off the loco when in a tunnel and check if footstep or other sounds come back then (technically the loco should not play any sound then anymore and maybe gets out of the active soundcue list and therefor the bahaviour stops .. just guessing here, but thats my general approach to get the idea of such problems). Because to me that makes just no sense. If the loco were wrongly set up in terms of sound classes and mixes for tunnels, then it would happen on Xbox and PC too. So it must be something that only causes on PS4. Its not a typical fade out, or there would be no crackle at all. It must be something that overshoots a limit of whatever ( in this cas i would say send level to reverb or reverb return level).
     
  13. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this - when I read your suggestion, I was thinking about the more detailed menus you get in TS20xx, for some reason... Anyway - yes - I checked it all out, and it doesn't really work with any PS4 audio settings...

    ...and the problem is only with the DB BR 155
     
  14. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    For completeness of information, I had the same thing in a class 45 in Huddersfield tunnel a couple of times but it must've been fixed because it hasn't happened for ages. It sounded as though it was as loud as it could get and entering the tunnel asked for a higher sound level which could not be met. A crackling sound followed by silence until out of the tunnel. If they fixed that why not your problem?
     
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  15. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well, if there is a reverb effect in all of the tunnels, then I can say that it doesn't impact on any other loco, other than DB BR 155. The reverb effect is fine, with every other bit of rolling stock.

    It doesn't matter whether the loco assets are the same on all platforms. This loco is being sold on the PS4 platform, and nobody bothered to test to see if it worked on the PS4 platform. If you make a cross-platform product, you should optimise and test the product for each platform.

    Yes - I think this is a very good argument in support of keeping all development on TSW strictly in-house. If you are developing a loco, then you need to be working directly with DTG, so that you can access all of the relevant content, for each build in progress, across all platforms. It doesn't look like 3rd party products can ever really work with TSW.



     
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  16. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Because if the guy that designed the 45 is who I think it is, then it is because he is a reasonable guy, and works closely with DTG ("2nd party"), and if there is a bug with his stuff, he feels mortified by it, and tries to get it fixed.

    Other people might not have the same approach. Or maybe the guy that designed the DB BR 155 died. Or maybe he wants more money to fix his broken stuff. Or maybe he just can't be bothered, because he is working on another loco that won't be tested on PS4, but will be sold on PS4.

    Who knows? This sort of stuff is fine for TS20xx - you can sort of expect it - but it is obscene on the PS4, with TSW. They really do need to start testing stuff on the PS4.
     
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  17. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I don't have the Baby Bullet, but if I run anything on SFJ, anytime soon, then I will look out for the issue.

    But I wanted to reply to you on a more general point. You are perfectly welcome here at the "PS4 end" of the Forums, as is is everyone else, regardless of your "platform". I have never ever seen anyone "here" say something like "Do you realise this is a PS4 forum, and you are talking about PC issues... go away, and go to your own part of the Forums - you sub-human child-like scum..." Just doesn't happen. Ever. We're a very open and tolerant bunch of guys and gals, with arms wide open to all. So - welcome.

    Would you like a cup of tea, while you are here? ;-)
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  18. Callum B.

    Callum B. Active Member

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    Sorry, I should have specified that I do not own the Baby Bullet DLC either, but that the issue popped up after the Baby Bullet game update was pushed. I know for a fact that I experience the crackling when driving the F40PH, but I can't remember off of the top of my head if I also heard it from the cab car.
     
  19. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Tested the F40PH and it sounded fine in the SF 22nd St tunnel, on PS4. I didn't test the cab car - my guess is that it would be fairly quiet anyway...? ;-)

    (more seriously - from memory - the cab car is pretty quiet)

    Funnily enough - I played a moody rainy scenario... and I did wonder about the buying Baby Bullet.... and having it charging along through the night...
     
  20. Callum B.

    Callum B. Active Member

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    Here is a recording of the bug experienced. It's more noticeable coming out of the tunnel, at least on this run it was.



    I did try the cab car as well and found no issues.
     
  21. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    I bought TSW for PS4, just to get an idea of that problem. Had an hour of play with the 155 on RSN and ran trough a bunch of tunnels (normal speed, slowly, very slow, stopped and so on). What i was able to get out of it is, that its not the reverb. It's the transition into the tunnel occlusion zone. And it happens only in the transition area. If you run into a tunnel, then stop, wait a few seconds, the sound will come back then, if you are not stop in within the transition area. Also, when you are not near by the loco, drive into a tunnel, go back to the loco, sound is ok until you enter the transition area at the end of the tunnel then.

    An interesting bug. Honestly, no idea yet why that happens. I could try to find it out if i could have time for it, but i dont have that time yet. I will pass the findings / guessings to the audio team. Maybe they have then an idea to solve it and prevent that problem. That's all i can do for now.
     
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  22. Callum B.

    Callum B. Active Member

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    I wonder if that means that, when in the transition zone, the game engine is trying to play double the audio tracks (normal + reverb) until the camera has left the threshold into the completely-reverbed zone, and then the opposite when coming out of the tunnel. If this is indeed the case, I can easily see why 32 sound channels become overwhelmed! Especially with such a complex locomotive with a lot of minute details. I could imagine that, for such a detailed locomotive, each creak given off by the locomotive cab could have been given its own sound channel (rather than being a loop of the same creaking sounds over and over). If something like that were true, it's no wonder the audio engine has a fit.
     
  23. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Nope, its not that. And sounds like creaks are not a real problem as they are short and oneshot. Oneshots don't use a channel when they are not there. Alot of looping sounds are more a problem then. If i though about how i used loops in TS1, by layering them over and over to get a nice big sound, that is something you cant do in UE4 yet. Need to mix them up before in a audio editor software and then have only one loop for it, with lesser control over it. But thats not the problem here with the 155. It's something i cant see yet directly. But not reverbation. It's occlusion stuff that causes this.

    Hase someone tried the 155 with tunnels on other routes? No idea where the 155 is usable, but on the MSB it is and there is a tunnel too. No time to test that yet by myself.
     
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  24. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I did one test run. Mixed freight to Gemunden - full power up the hill - no sound issues through the tunnel. Reverb clear as a bell. Everything else sounded fine, including at 150kph on the downhill stretch (in the open). Fantastic soundscape all round, on MSB.

    Thank you for thinking about this. I don't know how you are involved with this loco, but if it is "yours" or something from your "team", then you should know that the reason why I am so keen to get this bug fixed (on RSN), is because I think that this loco is probably the best that I have seen in all of TSW. It is beautifully modelled inside and out - but it's also interesting to drive, and it actually feels alive. I have not used it much because I can't bear the tunnels on RSN.

    I'd love to rave about it. But I can't. Not yet. ;-S
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
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  25. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Nope, it's not. I'm just interested in the problem itself. I'm an investigating type of developer. If there is somthing that is not really definable, then i often start to dig into this to get the idea, and maybe a solution. Most problems are resolvable, but not all. Some solvings may generate other problems then.

    For the BR155 it is clear to me. Since you tested it on MSB and it's working fine, it's not the locos problem and therefor not it's testing before the release. It's a route problem by RSNs tunnel audio-occlusion stuff. Maybe even a problem that came up after the 155 was released. I could telly you what it may be, but i guess i'm not allowed to do so. But there is a clear sign why that happend (at least to me it is). These are things that happen here and there. No reason to be pesky as you are in most of your posts on this forum. As a developer i wouldn't be very insterested in helping you when you are posting such exaggerated opinions/guessings/conspiracy theories in your posts all over the last days. That doesn't help much to get things fixed.
     
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  26. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Aaah - okay. that explains it. It is not the loco. In that case a few marketing things need to be fixed. So for example, on the PlayStation Store, the DB BR 155 has a description that says:

    "Please note: Ruhr-Sieg Nord is required, as a separate purchase, in order to utilise the content featured in this add-on."

    and this was a "mistake", because it should have said:

    "Please note: This loco DLC does not work on Ruhr-Sieg Nord, so in order to utilise the content featured in this add-on, you will have to wait for another route to be made, which might happen in about a year - maybe we will do something to do with a steep hill near the river Main - so if you buy this now, hold your horses for a bit, so to speak, before you start to complain"

    If the marketing mistake had not been made, and the non-utilisation of the DB BR 155 on PS4 was made clear from the start, then, I think, there would have been no problem.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
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  27. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, those pesky customers, coming on here, complaining about stuff that doesn't work. Why can't they just leave the poor developers alone to churn out crap at premium prices eh?
     
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  28. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    And again, pesky, provocative post after someone (who not need to) started to may help you with that problem. I'm done with you now. Have fun...
     
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  29. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah... and where they say:

    "A classic loco dating back to the 1970s and Deutsche Reichsbahn’s answer to the growing freight and passenger market throughout Germany. The DB BR 155, or “Electric Container” as it’s affectionately known to railfans, has stood the test of time and you can now take to hauling heavy freight with a nostalgic twist over Ruhr-Sieg Nord steel."

    .. they should have said....

    "A classic loco dating back to the 1970s and Deutsche Reichsbahn’s answer to the growing freight and passenger market throughout Germany. The DB BR 155, or “Electric Container” as it’s affectionately known to railfans, has NOT BEEN TESTED FOR USE ON THE PS4 on this route and you CANNOT take to hauling heavy freight with a nostalgic twist over Ruhr-Sieg Nord steel - but MAYBE, sometime in the future, when another route is made (MSB), you can start thinking about using this loco. But you still won't be able to use it until yet another route is made (RRO), which is when we will start allowing loco substitutions on RSN/MSB/RRO"

    Then - you know - everything would have been absolutely fine.

    Those naughty marketing people.....! They should really take a look at themselves in the mirror, and ask themselves some serious questions.
     
  30. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's kind of the feeling we get as DTG customers most of the time. It's enough to make you want to repeat post about the tired old issues all over the forums.

    155.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
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  31. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I think you definitely need to stay "back of house".
     
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  32. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Oooh - I think you have just successfully made an application for a job at DTG....! Well done - your application has been accepted. You are just the kind of person that they are looking for, to meet their Values Statement - although it might have faded a bit, because they put it on a wall that has now been exposed to some sunlight:

    Faded Values.jpg
     
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  33. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    The attitude seems to be that customers should be grateful that any attempts are made to fix problems and we also have to ask nicely and ideally beg. I note the seeming endorsement of that attitude by a DTG staff member (TrainSim Daniel) which says it all really.
     
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  34. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I think it is a cultural thing. And to be fair to DTG and the developers, I am trying to hold them to a standard that they are not yet ready for - but a standard that they should be meeting, if they want to be in a professional market-place, and sell stuff on consoles, to all types of customers. You can't expect to reap the benefits of sales on consoles, but not meet a reasonably expected standard.

    I'd like them to succeed. I want to be playing Train Sim World in 2050, just after celebrating the construction of the first part of HS2.... ;-)

    I'd like the developers to start thinking about testing stuff on PS4, if they want to sell their stuff on PlayStation Store.

    Being called "pesky", as if I am a trivial annoying little kid..is...well... quite amusing. I think that the challenge that I am giving is fairly reasonable. But - some people don't want to have their feet held to the fire. I could get really upset, but I'm not going to be - and hurling abuse at me won't stop me trying to be reasonable. That said, my eyes did pop out slightly when I saw this:

    Because the quote above said everything that I needed to know. About the whole process.

    The thing that made my eyes pop out and take a quick glance around the room was the "Maybe its a way larger problen than you guys here can imagine....." bit........... And this is because, well.... I personally imagine that it is really quite hard to imagine what another person is imagining. And also because it is also quite hard, I would imagine, to imagine what another person is capable of imagining.... And I think that I can imagine quite a bit, I think....probably..... I can't speak for others, though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
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  35. doc_woods

    doc_woods Member

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    If I can briefly wade into this disaster: my understanding is that Maik Goltz is somewhere between 2nd party and 3rd party. Doesn't work for DTG, as such is under no obligation to help or treat you politely. I'd guess (but don't really know) that he may have a bit of background knowledge of the TSW so a bit of an idea what the problems may be. Therefore if you've managed to irritate him into no-longer caring about looking into it that's really your loss.

    I'd also imagine "Maybe its a way larger problen than you guys here can imagine" is possibly something you've written too much into and over-reacted to. I suspect it was only meant to emphasise the possible difficulty of fixing it.
     
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  36. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    "Overreacting", that's the word i was searching for all the time to describe Angels posts. Thanks for that. As a non native english speaking person, it's sometimes hard to find the right wording to say what's to say. That also may be a problem to understand what i want to say at least. Anyways...

    Correct.

    Thanks to tell it with the right english words!
     
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  37. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    Strange old forum this Padawan. Strong here the pack mentality is.

    I to don't think that Maik Goltz works for DTG, he is a partner programme developer for TS products I believe (?).
    This sort of gives it away.

    Using his knowledge he was just trying to help in tracing the problem with the 155. Now he's not... Can't say I blame him.
     
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  38. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I think that I have a different perspective on the provider-client relationship, in a regulated market. My personal loss is limited to only about £11.49, with the DB BR 155, in this case... But if people stop buying the DB BR 155 until it is fixed (or don't buy it when it is marketed correctly and fully truthfully), then the losses to the developer will be just a little bit higher.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
  39. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    If anyone in my supply chain was anything other than polite to one of my customers, then they would no longer be in my supply chain.
     
  40. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes - this is appreciated, especially since it is apparently not his/her product. My point is that maybe tracing the problem with DB BR 155 tunnel sound bug issue should have been done about two years ago, during testing on PS4, before the product was released. Maybe. I think that would have been a better approach.

    Make product. Test product. Sell product....<<<<< in that order.

    It's like the Oakville DLC massive Hamilton area industry bug... all over again.....
     
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  41. doc_woods

    doc_woods Member

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    I don't think it's quite the same. The Oakville DLC massive Hamilton area fiasco is clearly a design decision to cut some stuff out of the route so it can be done quicker + some misleading advertising. It's not a "bug" in that the game is behaving exactly how it was told to (but I do agree it's a pretty shoddy design)

    I'd guess your 155 issue is deep in the Unreal Engine in some platform-specific sound code. I do agree with you that it should have been fixed, but I also imagine it's possible that it's been looked at quite hard and it's genuinely difficult to solve.

    Anyway - I think I've posted enough on this thread so: good luck getting it fixed; "be excellent to each other".
     
  42. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Also - to be fair - I haven't completely revealed my own hand with all of this. But you might be able to make a guess about who/what I am likely to be, if you can read between the lines in my posting history. Or...even.. if you just read the lines.... Anyway... I will just say this...

    I have seen this all before, many many times, in the real world... but with real trains. Real railway infrastructure. Real companies. Real money. Real risk.

    And... the thing that surprises me the most, is how "art" can mimic reality, or how the "virtual world" mimics the real politics of the operational railway.... when it comes to service provision, profits and risk.... and the interplay between them all....

    It is utterly amazing to me to see rail/wheel interface as being an issue that impacts on Train Sim World....

    "....it's not the loco..."
    "... it's not the tracks..."
    "...it's not the signalling...."
    "...it's someone else's fault...."

    "...I want more of the money in the money pile...."
    "....I want less of the risk in the risk pile...."

    "....why should we talk to each other and sort it out before the consumer gets a bad deal.....?"


    It's really amazing - it really is. How all logic just goes out of the window....The whole process of making Train Sim World is a remarkably faithful and ultra-realistic simulation of how the real operational railway is organised, built and operated.... It's quite an achievement. ;-D
     
  43. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Now you mention it, I do frequently go to our local train station, discover one or more cancelled trains due to unspecified issues – usually somebody else's fault – and end up returning home to get my car. It's a remarkably similar consumer experience - the plan, the promise, the empty feeling of disappointment, and ending up in a car instead of a train.
     
  44. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yep.... maybe I will get GRID after all.... The car sounds, in the tunnels... they all work - unlike with the DB BR 155. Funny how they never released the GRID software with broken tunnel sounds, isn't it. You might almost start to believe that they bothered to test it, before trying to sell it.
     
  45. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yeah....so... I don't want to appear to be a bit picky.... but I must admit.... that I did wonder if this picture below (originally posted by Factor41).... really represents "the game behaving exactly how it was told to".... I mean - it might well be doing that... but maybe it was told to do the wrong thing....?

    That picture again.jpg

    Anyway - I don't want to derail this lovely thread, which is all about the complete failure of the designer(s) of the DB BR 155 to get their lovely looking loco to work on RSN... on the PS4, and start talking too much about really minor issues like the OSD Hamilton "misunderstanding" thingy-a-ma-bob, lest we incur the wrath of people that want this thread to stay on the right track...
     
  46. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Just to confirm...

    That-picture-once-more.jpg
     
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  47. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I tried again for you - and I ran this SFJ service (the same service in your video), with decent headphones on, on the PS4, and I did not get the cackle that is evident in your video. I tend to run with all doors and all windows open, at all times*. I discovered an uncomfortable sound if you look towards the two o'clock position so that the "Window" label appears (to close the window) - it doesn't sound quite right (and it is in both L and R channels), and it is slightly uncomfortable, but it is not as bad as the cackle sound in your video.... or indeed the cackle that you hear before the silence on the DB BR 155 when it goes into the RSN tunnels.

    *It did not matter whether the doors/windows were open or closed - the sound was always present when looking in the two o'clock position.

    I don't know if this is helpful to you, although it is intended to be.

    Cheers

    Synthia
     
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  48. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Hi Maik

    Thanks for this. I'd first like to say that I am not looking for any personal favours from you, or anyone else that is associated with the failure to test the DB BR 155 in RSN tunnels on PS4, whilst still allowing it to be on sale with its current description on PlayStation Store, which now looks completely wrong. (I assume that you no longer need to have RSN to use this loco, for example - but in any case, it cannot reasonably be run on RSN).

    But I would like to take you up on this "over-reacting" point that you have made. I do not feel particularly emotionally concerned. But I do wonder - what are your expectations? When a loco cannot be used on the route that it was designed for... just how many years have to pass before someone decides to test it? How many times does it need to be reported to the "Support" Team...? What - for you - is the right level of reaction? What is the amount of time that needs to pass....? How many times does it need to be mentioned in the Forums, before anyone decides to do something about it....?

    On this last point - if the answer is - say, 1000, then that's fine. We will eventually get to 1000 mentions of the failure of the DB BR 155 to run in tunnels on RSN. It's okay - this is perfectly possible. It's just a shame that it is necessary. All of this could have been avoided if someone decided to test the loco on the PS4, before selling it for use on RSN, on the PS4.

    Danke

    Synthia
     
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  49. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I think someone hit the nail on the head earlier when they said that there was a lot of carry-over of both assets and attitude from the TS days which was holding TSW back. When you're pushing out a niche product on a platform where people are used to tinkering with settings, overclocking this, upgrading that, trying new firmware, drivers, all that crap, and your userbase are actively buying into stuff that's been made by third parties with a very broad range of skill levels, all of which may or may not need assets from other third party packs, there's a very different level of expectation. You can almost get into a mindset where pushing out an unfinished, untested product, is sort of okay, because the community will pull together and help you sort it out - they want to be involved in that process and folks like our developer friend here might just do them a favour and let them be part of that glorious development loop.

    Well, that doesn't fly on PS4. The PC brigade may scoff at our reluctance to accept sub-standard product (and to be clear, I have no interest in making this an us vs them discussion), but this is a platform that has been absolutely polished over four generations and a quarter of a century by the very best in the business. Huge names have been made on Playstation because it's attracted the best developers who have pushed the envelope and given us the best games that could possibly run on each iteration. That is the standard we're used to and that is now very much the expectation. Controls and interfaces should be flawlessly designed and effortlessly intuitive to use - if a regular Playstation user can't reasonably guess at what the controls for any particular function might be, then you've got it wrong. When someone's interacting with a trackside element using the X button and a popup suddenly appears and takes the button press as a game-ending command - you've got it wrong. When there are functions that you can literally only access by plugging a keyboard into your console when they could easily be in a game menu - wrong.

    When you sell a title on the PS Store, price it high, and then sell DLC which is the same cost again, users will expect it to be slick, professional and polished. It doesn't have to be perfect – humans are fallible after all, and we're used to bug fixes and updates for even the most AAA of titles – but it has to work. It has to do what it claims to do, and it has to work without us having to put effort into making that happen. We shouldn't have to sweet talk the developers into pretty-please-if-you-wouldn't-mind investigating why the paid DLC loco for the paid DLC route for the paid software still has stupid issues a year later. We've paid THREE TIMES already for them to do that work – so that I can drive the DB BR 155 through the tunnel on RSN and be able to hear it all the way through. So that I get awarded all the trophies I've earned, as I earn them. So I can enjoy the software without constantly fighting for it. And so they look like the serious players in the industry that we all want them to be, rather than a bunch of hobbyists, out of their depth on a system they don't understand.

    That is the expectation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
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  50. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for a fabulous post. It was long (like this one).... because you had a hell of a lot to say. Thanks for taking the time - it is important to show others that not everyone gets sucked in by the soundbites (or wants to just issue soundbites) and can think about the issues - across the piece.

    I agree with everything that you wrote. But I wanted to add a little.... one way that expectations (of console players) are managed is through the perpetuation of myths. One myth is that PS4/XBox players are inferior or somehow more casual and much less important. Or, indeed, "kiddies". These ideas are promoted this way (especially by DLC makers/sellers) because they can see the real threat that Dovetail might turn TSW into a centrally produced professional product, leaving them all out in the cold... with just a shrinking and over-saturated TS2020 market-place for them to exploit. They don't want TSW to be successful and profitable, unless it is profitable for them, individually, through DLC sales.

    The other myth is that PS4 as a platform is inferior, and that it is not powerful enough to run TS2020, or TSW. This is sort of true... but only given the fact that TS2020 and TSW are so poorly made and optimised. If you ask yourself the question - is it possible to make a current gen Train Simulator that looks as good as TSW does, and then do it on Playstation... then the answer is no. You could not do it on Playstation. Playstation One, that is. Can you do it on PS2....(?).... and the answer is no, not really... but nearly... You could build out WSR (as it is now on PS4), and nearly run it on PS2...maybe... might need a bit of work.... But could you do it on PS3....? Yes you could. Easily. PS3 is powerful enough. PS4 Pro is easily powerful enough. To put this into context - the graphical performance that you get in the rear-view mirror in a car game on PS4, is comparable to what TSW delivers using the entire power of the system it is running on. This is a measure of how poorly TSW has been made and optimised.

    The point that I eventually wanted to get to is that TSW could be optimised, extremely well, if they used the closed system that is PS4 and XBox, as the core for the development process. It would look better and run better on PC, for everyone, as a result. If they made it properly. But for now, I'd be content if TSW could simply be tested on PS4... starting with the DB BR 155 on RSN... through tunnels. ;-)
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
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