Loco Br 194 / E94 Railtour Pack Feedback Thread

Sort of, out of the factory, the position was the same as that on the assistant drivers side which slowly became less and less common throughout the 50s and into the 60s, so you are correct the lower side is a modification one that appeared in the early 1950s although theres no rhyme nor reason for any of them, heck I've seen a 194 with a pantograph wiper hung from above the window. And yes it is basically too late to modify the wipers, not least because they were an absolute nightmare to get working in the first place! Turns out the game doesn't really support this style of wiper. Squatting to reduce my height by 30cm for any length of time on a relatively rough riding loco is not something I'd want to do! Stool is fairly unlikely as well and would probably end up getting more in the way to be of any use

 

Still think there should be some compromise for the sake of gameplay. As a few have commented above, an alternate eye point using an imaginary stool. Derail Valley has this mechanic, where you can actually stand at the control position or sit down, even though there’s no actual seat. Plus IRL, presumably the real driver would bend down or crouch at critical moments to view the line ahead through the area cleared by the wipers, but we don’t have that option in game.

 

You got some very valid points there. The train community sure is special, and sometimes can become quite obsessed.
It's probably not a coincidence that Sheldon himself is depicted as a train fan too

Heh, guilty. More than one topic, actually

I agree that the current solution for the driver's eyeline isn't optimal. I guess back in the day, the drivers occasionally ducked down a little to check for signals. Could this perhaps be simulated in some way? There's already a key bind for "crouch" when on foot, could this be used in some way? (just read right after posting that Vern already had the same idea )

Regarding the stool thing: On the 218, Maik made the seat so that you can only pass behind it when it's tilted forward. Maybe a movable stool could be made in similar fashion, which can be moved to the assistant's side when not in use? Or even stored somewhere underneath the Indusi panel? Quite similar to the pump handle.
Just some ideas

 

I appreciate your point, Sun_King, but we have to remember that as I said some people are more passionate than others about certain things. It's all an individual's perspective. I am passionate about different things than the next person, and some things I don't really care about much at all. Which, as you said since I worked for MY money, it's my concern where my money goes and it's up to me to determine for myself what fun I'll get for my money.

You're right this is the feedback forum. However, some things are beyond the scope of this one simple pack. It often turns into a general rant about the "state of TSW" or "everything lacking in German rolling stock." That consequently is not productive since it's not in the scope of this work. If there "should be a new wagon" in the game... then that's a new project. It can't be a failure of this project if it was never the intent.

Some things too, as I said just aren't that important to most people. Yes a "purist" wants their thing to be perfect, but we are working with what we are working with, and you have to remember that outside the forum MOST of the players are "casuals." Not hard core researchers on any one small specific of a route or loco.

That's where the "normies vs railfans" compromise comes in. You can go the SimRail route and focus on 100% accuracy in a very narrow, limited area if you want that to be "perfect." That's now that TSW is though. It's more of a multi-national "survey" where you have lots of variety and can putter around in a "more or less realistic" environment. Not a perfect sim.

A train game that specifically focused on one region, one era and one set of trains from one single developer would yes be a lot more "accurate" but TSW is the sum of it's parts and that's a lot of different developers, in a lot of different countries and eras.

"Wishlisting" is not the same as definite usable feedback and criticism. Feedback is supposed to be concrete things the developer can do to improve this product's bugs and potentially improve in the future products. It's not just "we need this and this and this and this and this."

Once something has been addressed by the developer...then that's it. If there is a 628 for example in game... then it's there. Now you can ask (in the suggestions thread) for the OTHER 628 if you want, but they did address the issue even if you don't like it.

Going into detail about 1984 vs 1987 is also not really that helpful. The product is made, and the decisions were made to make "most" players happy. DTG and other devs have gone over this repeatedly. They are here to make a game. If they have to "fudge" things a bit to make it more playable or fun, they will...because it's a game.

So having a 1987 loco in a 1984 timetable might not exactly fit but if it's fun and gives more variety then that isn't a failure. It's success because more players enjoy the game and it sells better.

This is what I mean... it's a game. Not a history book. It has to be fun to MOST people first, and if that frustrates a few perfectionists then they'll do that because it's not worth it to make it less fun to be more "accurate" to please a tiny minority.

As I always told my troops when doing AARs (After Action Reviews) ...this is not a "beat down session." The review/feedback process is to IMPROVE things. The focus is on how to do better in the future, not harp on what was wrong or what one person didn't like. It is supposed to be a positive thing, and lead to constructive, specific changes.

In this context yes, it COULD be more game content, but that's going forward and needs to be positively positioned in context. Simply not having a certain rail car in game is not TSG's fault for example. Now you can ask someone make it, but that's a separate issue. It's not a failure of this pack nor TSG's fault. It's not a "negative."

It's a potential "positive" for the future, which should be addressed as such. Suggest it, give the idea a full background, and that's all you can do.

Maybe showing the AAR process will help show what I mean.

Step 1- Ask "what was the goal?" Did we accomplish what we tried to do?

Step 2- "What worked well?" Positive feedback. This lets people know what to KEEP doing in the future. If you don't tell them, how do they know you liked it?

Step 3- What can be improved?" Not "what sucked".... but what and HOW can it be improved?" Think positively. This is sometimes separated into two parts... what is a problem and what can be done to fix it? It also opens the floor to anything not directly a "problem" but a helpful suggestion. This is sometimes part of Step 3, sometimes more of a Step 4.
For example, the way we did something might have been on "okay" way to do something, but there may be a better one. When there's an "okay" it doesn't fit in the "bad" or "good" sections but it's still an "improve."

Generally you want a good 2 or 3 remarks from each section to make sure people have investment in it and are doing a full review.

Now, if we were doing one of our AARs after a long convoy operation and one of my troops said something about "the seats were uncomfortable in the Humvees" that would not go over well. It may be technically true... but it's also not something that's in the scope of this operation (It was a convoy not a critique of US Army vehicle designs from the 1980s) and it's definitely not something I'd even have the ability to change if I wanted to.
It would at best get him a dirty look from everyone and probably doing laps around the motor pool until I got tired of watching him run in circles.

Doesn't mean it's "bad" feedback per se, but it's not appropriate or relevant to what is at hand.

Now... if I were on a team tasked with "designing the next Army vehicle" then YES, that would be a great time to bring up "comfy seats."

For this pack, I'd say they did a decent job.

A positive is the E94 is modeled well. The sounds are good. The animation is good. The instruments and interaction are good (once you get the hang of them.) You can even tell them if you want to see more of this style (early electrics, etc) The more specific, the more they know what to do in the future.
A negative/improve is that there are a few bugs and feature that could be improved like the wipers/stool thing and the P/G brake lever. Be specific and why. Is it just "not historical" or is it "hampering gameplay?" Remember, if it's "fun" but not "exactly historical" then it may be an intended choice since fun takes precedence in TSW.
An improve for next time would be not having such specific dependencies for DLC that you HAVE to buy Mittenwald to enjoy 2/3 of the pack.Layers are "nice" but the E94 and the 218 are pretty core to the pack so not having those without Mittenwald severely hampers effectiveness since your customer can't use 2/3 of the product.
This isn't specific to the pack, but it would improve future content packs from TSG.

From TSG's perspective...they can take take this feedback and specifically use it to keep in mind when designing the next product (or using these assets in the future) It's "actionable" suggestions that they can move on right away.

 

Personally I think the stool would cause more hassle than its worth, especially as the door opens right into the driving position, requiring the stool to be moved anytime you want to open the door, and musical chairs to be able to navigate around it and I personally think is just too much a faff and would probably reduce my own enjoyment of driving it! A ducking camera is probably the easiest option but not for patch 1 since it requires localisation. (plus it would have be be a very low and very narrow stool to fit under that desk, you might find yourself with the opposite problem!)

 

A "crouch" option (in any loco) might be the best option. I'm just guessing, but in the cab aren't we just using the "on foot" commands with some of them "blocked"? I don't see a specific "walk around on the train" keybind setup, so if that's the case then in the core game they could just "unblock" the crouch function.
I don't see how that would hurt anything. Might even improve a couple of the other locos where vision is a bit inconvenient.
Making a "stool" or some "adjustable height" feature seems like a lot more work.

I must say I appreciate the quirky authenticity of having it a "standing" locomotive. It gives it that "transitional" feel of being one step removed from the steam trains before it (where you often stood, or just had a fold out seat) Just like the wood paneling textures are unique and "old fashioned."

Now I'm just thinking it's a pity it doesn't run on more routes. I know, the 194s/1020s are "old" but somewhere else to run them would be fun. Again, FUN but not accurate given how NEW the routes in Germany are in TSW. I'm not asking for anything in particular. Just rambling.
I really like the "transitional" period of UK and US content too in the 50s/60s when it was at that edge of Steam/Early diesel. A lot simpler in some ways, more complex in others. Just less... "plastic?"

Maybe sometime we'll get more of the older German routes. The problem is that you'll get the "modern only" people complaining and then like the WCML there's the argument over how you connect the "old" and the "new" stuff if you want to route hop.

Anyway, enjoying the 194. That's the bottom line. Far more than the more modern German electrics like the 185 or 193. Entirely personal opinion and rambling.
=-)

 

Agreed, let's not overcomplicate things. A crouch camera really does sound like the best and easiest solution!

Funny enough, when electric locos like the E94 were brand new, the only real alternative to them were steam locos. From what I know, drivers of electric locos back then often were derided by their steam colleagues for having it so comfy (enclosed cab, no coal, less maintenance...)

Sorry, I had to

 

As with many video games, in cab driving control binds are a completley different set to that when walking about, as such the keybind for crouch doesn't exist at all as such theres no way of recognising it.

It is no different to that of an First person shooter in that regard which has several sets of keybinds for on foot, in a car, flying a plane, flying a helicopter, piloting a boat, the ability to crouch likely only being in the on foot control bindings.

Additionally on Console, the crouch button is reused as I think Horn when driving, and it would get a bit old crouching everytime you blew the horn!

 

Huh... did they reuse the class number?
I'll take a swap substitution =-)

Ok, I only have wikipedia to go on from this... but does the "new" 193 (Vectron) actually have less tractive effort than the "old" 193 (E93)?
I know the new one has a lot more "power" per se, but on the rails it seems like it's similar or less?
Could it stand in for a new Vectron on a route?

 

193 being a 117T loco does indeed have more starting tractive effort than the Vectron, although with a top speed of 70kph I don't think you'd really want it subbing for a Vectron

 

Is there a "walk" in the cab controls though?
Honestly don't recall since I'm at work and can't check, but I thought the "cab" controls started when you "sat down" to "take control" of the train? When standing in the train, you don't have "control" of the train so it's still on foot commands?

Now that does bring up a good point. You COULD just walk over and "crouch" behind the wheel using on foot commands and maybe get it to work using just the interactive controls of the controls themselves. (click on the wheel, brake handle, etc directly) However, you wouldn't have full functionality like using a raildriver, etc. (Can't just bind the reverser to W and S for example you'd have to literally click on the reverser handle)

So... I can see how you'd need to make it a keybind in the "cab controls" section. But, to a limited extent you might be able to use it without going into the actual "drivers position"? It'd be very awkward though.

Your point is valid. It would require a new keybind be added to the cab controls. I get the feeling the current setup is just an invisible "seat" without calling it that.

Is there a universal "seat adjustment" keybind in cab controls?
I've never tried to look for one, so don't know.

 

That's plenty for a freight train =-) Might even be a bit faster than a Vectron on hills given the added traction not slowing down as much.

 

Yes they did, this happend a couple of times in German train history
The old 193 went out of service in the early 80's, so the number was free again.
Another example... those are both BR 612 DMU's:

 

I don't believe there is any such controls, and adding new bindings is not trivial either. Additionally it would be of zero use for controller players who already have a very limited number of buttons available to be used all of which have some purpose at present. No the simplest way is to just add an alternative camera view end of. Heck even moving the darn wiper is probably easier than adding a new keybind which is in core!

 

Ok, now that just looks cooler than the new one too!
Better visibility too.
Reminds me of a Volkswagen Van.

 

It's very much from the same era
A really cool one, would love to be able to drive it someday! But gotta say, I was able to visit the cab on a railtour journey once... it's very cramped, and I'm not the tallest person... and also very loud, the engine is literally right behind the back wall
German Wikipedia has got some decent images.

DominusEdwardius I was just doing some shunting services, and remembered that the 365 already does something similar with the camera position. When sitting in the driver's seat, pressing Left Arrow (on PC) makes you stand up for better view. Very helpful, one reason why I prefer the 365 over the 363
Something similar could be the best and most ergonomic solution for the E94 family indeed!

 

The old one probably doesn't tilt

 

Depends on how fast you're going ;-)
It'll tilt once at least.

 

To hopefully put an end to the height discussion:

I took it at eye level and I'm 177 cm tall.
This is inside 254 106 in Weimar btw, a Reichsbahn Kroko which differs yet again from the DB one in some issues, like the speedometer (on the far right side, linear gauge). It also features another wiper arrangement like DominusEdwardius was already telling you.

I also took the opportunity to "play around" with the levers, the wheel etc. in anticipation of this DLC.
Turns out standing isn't that bad, the Sifa pedal is rather easy to press without having to stand in an uncomfortable position. Granted, the DR version had also another variant of a Sifa pedal, a flat flap on floor level, but if you put one foot half a step in front of you and keep the other one a bit back, you can stand rather comfy.
Also the controls were pretty easy to reach for my arms, at least brakes, whistle, tap changer wheel.
The wiper would be distracting to operate manually, should the motor fail, but switches and levers you don't use much during the ride don't have to be that close to you.

I also took more pictures inside the cab and the engine room and would be happy to provide more and measures to the devs should they need them for a future Reichsbahn version.

 

- E94 Roof circuit breaker isn’t animated

 

I'm stuck with service 57453 and 55253 because the signal before you reach your wagons at Mainz-Mombach it always says "denied, check switches". I have put the manual switches either combination I can get, never get a green signal. Any ideas?

 

I found another one

The preparation for service 55253 with the 365 (start at Mainz, pick up the freight at Mombach and bring them back to Mainz) has some issues.
First I had to wait a while. Because on platform 5, there's a service called 8360_MainzAI_7, about to head north. But instead of leaving the station normally along platform 5, it choose to rather use the X switch in the middle of the platform to venture left, into my path, and then back to the right track at the end of the platform.
When it left and my signal said "go", I headed out to the north as well. Got zwangsbremsed by Indusi two times, but that might have been on me for missing the magnets.
In the curve approaching Mombach, I had to stop for a red signal. Dispatcher told me to "check manual switches". But there are no manual switches between me and my destination. I actually walked all the way to the end and checked the automatic switches, which were all in the correct position. Thus I had to abort the service.

 

Not sure which service it was (one of the 194 freight runs), but i got that same "check switches" message and had to throw a switch beyond my destination to get it to clear for some reason- first time i've ever come across that one.

 

No, not with the 194, it was with the 365. The service starting at 8:55.
I already tried flipping all the manual switches in the Mombach area, didn't help. Gonna try some more tomorrow.

 

Service 46234 Koblenz-Mainz Part II:
Just arriving into Mainz HBF you are stopped infront of a Hp0 Shunting signal, Ls281 I. Looking at the path I am supposed to take I can see my destination track, Mainz Nebengleis 61, is already occupied by some other freight service. On the live-map it says that its next service is supposed to be at 12am. When you arrive into Mainz its round about 19:45h.
I'm not gonna wait 4 hours :P

Sadly, deleting the AI train doesn't do anything and it still won't let me in, although there is no green signal and no other AI service anywhere to be seen.
Quite frustrated with the timetable to be honest. This is not the first time I had something like this. I think I also mentioned it in this thread, there was a service with the BR218 which basically has the same problem where you are stuck in front of Mainz HBF and deleting the train that occupies the track doesn't help anything.

 

I tried the introductory course in the Training Academy and only came to the point that I had to put the direction changer forward, did so and nothing more happened. Normally one would hear the chime that the required task has been fulfilled, but nothing.

Has anyone else been able to reproduce the error I ran into with DBBR 103 on service IC619 from Koblenz to Mainz with a departure time at 1950 lt?

Lastly, I saw in some streams that the DBBR 218 will get a fix to the RIC inscription and the DBBR 420 will be active on the route once released. Sounds great, if I understand that correctly.

Kind regards.

 

I just tried, and was able to reproduce it. Funny though, you spawned at Rhens, while I spawned at Oberwesel
Tried it two more times, and spawned at Mainz Gbf and Bingen respectively. Looks like it randomly chooses Free Roam spawn points!

 

Tried the preparation for service 55253 service with the 365 at 8:55 again, and ran into the same problem as yesterday. Red light in front of Mombach, dispatcher says "check manual switches". But as mentioned above, there aren't any manual switches between me and my destination.
As Disintegration7 suggested, I fumbled with the switches beyond my destination a little and found a combo which worked! The switches have to be set up as to lead you towards the siding with those 5 wagons in it. Very weird, those are not the wagons I'm looking for...

But it worked, signal let me pass. The rest of the service worked fine, I picked up the 3 wagons I needed and brought them back to Mainz. Switched to the 194 service 55253, which is scheduled to bring those wagons to Oberwesel.
Grabbing the wagons was easy, but then came the next hiccup:
I'm being told to go on the left track from Mainz all the way to Bingen! From Bingen to Oberwesel it's back on the right side.
It's 10 in the morning, the route is bustling with activity... I'm literally unable to even get out of Mainz Gbf.


Gotta say, the timetable really needs more work. A lot of it. All the traffic jams, AI trains bogging up, needless track side changes... shouldn't have been released in this state.
But when it works, it shines
Testing this timetable made me realise just how bland and uninspired the old one really was. This one gets so much more value out of the route! In its current state it's quite a gamble to do services, but once the issues are fixed, I doubt I'm gonna use the other timetable ever again

 

Gosh, I thought it was just me.

Did you also try the familiarisation tutorials for the E94/194? How far did you get until it jammed up? For me it was when I had to push the knob from 0 to forward - it won't make thr chime to confirm this requirement having been done.

Regarding the timetable layer: it isn't bad, but as you said right now contains many bugs and flaws eg ai blocking player routing. It has potential to become a good layer, once these are fixed.

Kind regards.

 

Nah, I skipped the tutorials. Was much more fun figuring it out myself, using my experience with the 1020 (ok, and with a little help from the amazing manual Raph' made)

Edit, don't wanna double post constantly:
The shunting services for E3211 (with the 628) are fun. Really showcases how densely frequented the main route is... you gotta bring patience if you have to cross it
These two services feature my pet peeve again though: Although I'm bringing the train into the yard, it's filled with passengers... and so is service 6537, which is currently resting in a siding next to me, north of Bingerbrück.

 

If you by any chance had the possibility to try the tutorial, I'd be most grateful. It's just to see, if it was just me, AmityBlight

PS. I felt free to create a suggestion for Bundesbahn material. Just wanted to point it out after the interesting conversation over here. Feel free to check out and I'll appreciate your feedback. Just remember, I'm a ordinary user and as such my suggestion may not be perfect.

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/bundesbahn-content-packs.92242/

Others than that I look forward to the future for this pack.

Kind regards.

 

Sun_King_135 I tested both tutorials now. The one for the 194 worked fine, but in the one for the E94 088 I'm getting stuck at the same spot as you. Pushing the direction lever to "forward" doesn't seem to complete the objective...