Well the cargoline is a really good dlc chain. I get them all for variety. If the vol.5 is the nuclear flask trains with the drs cl20, it will be day one purchais. Further suggestion for vol. 6 to make a timber based dlc. Ota 2 axle wsgon, glw 90 ton wagon, on top a mma wagon with woodchip cargo load.
I could get behind a timber train! They're all over NA (among world's leading exporters), but can't seem to get any of that in game though.
Couple this with the 373 drawing people said they found somewhere on a skyhook route, I’m now suspicious
I mean I can't tell what it is, but people insist it's a 373. It would work on the ECML in any case, with or without extension.
Not in the Azuma era though I don’t think? Could make a nice scenario though, or toggle-able Easter egg layer
I dunno. I only have wikipedia to go from. It says from 1994 to present, so.... whatever year ECML is that's in that range.
If it is infact a DRS 20 and we get an FNA wagon then I would have thoughtit is. But you never know lol. Hentis
Can you link to the page you found please on wikipedia? They definitely don't run nowadays on ECML, so perhaps it's out of date
If this page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_373, it is saying when they were in service in general. This is true, they are still in service (channel tunnel, HS1 etc.), just not on the ECML White Rose (?) services anymore
No, we only had them for a relatively short stint from about mid 2000 to late 2005, so wouldn't be right them appearing on the current ECML route.
On HS1 from St Pancras. The ones that were on the ECML were not going to Europe but just operated 'normal', domestic, EC services, primarily KGX-Leeds.
Okay I know that's not the "ECML" but isn't that included in the ECML map in TSW? That's the southern branch for the HSTs the Azuma runs on?
I am not sure what you mean there, HS1 is the SEHS route in TSW and it does run above the ECML in a bridge as it leaves St Pancras, however it is a different route. The Azumas don't run on HS1, but into Kings Cross which is next door to St Pancras, and so HS1. The ECML is in the SEHS map, but HS1 is not in the ECML map as the map cuts off about 75 miles short of where the ECML and HS1 cross.
Okay I see the confusion. I meant the SEHS. I had it confused with the ECML. I guess it terminates at London so it's no longer the ECML there. My question was wouldn't the 373 run on the SEHS route we have in the game? On the tracks the Azumas and Javelins use? And weren't they still using that route when that route was created? The implication above was that they wouldn't be in game because they didn't run on the route as published. It would only be a substitute for the Javelin, so wouldn't have a lot of runs, but it should fit there? Unless of course the other end of the Chunnel was modeled and then it would go from there to Paris or Brussels or somewhere.
The 373s could be used on the SEHS route, the one with Javelins. The 373s could not be used on the ECML route, the one with Azumas. The Azumas and Javelins don't share any tracks, but operate on different routes which start in two separate stations right next to each other.
The Class 373's used to operate on the ECML between 2000 and 2005 on the days of GNER. Would be nice if they add it in addition as a tour service.
South Eastern High Speed and East Coast Mainline are 2 separate routes in real life and TSW. ECML starts at Kings Cross (with the TSW version starting at Peterborough instead, about 75 miles north of Kings Cross) and SEHS starts at St Pancras, which is directly next door to Kings Cross, but is a separate station, it is also the start point for the Midland Mainline (that the Leicester to Nottingham and Derby route in TSW is part of). As SEHS leaves St Pancras it passes over the ECML. The Class 373's stopped running on the ECML about 20 years ago (I think they only ran under GNER for a few years), but Eurostar run them out of St Pancras, but since COVID, those services no longer stop at Ashford.
The Eurostar / Channel Tunnel being teased in TSW is an ongoing joke, I blame Adam at Skyhook Given the complexity of the rail network to the tunnel, plus the passenger and freight trains being somewhat unique it would be a costly route to produce. You also have the question of how many players would actually enjoy driving in a tunnel [with no stops] for 35 minutes.
Yes they did, it wouldn't be particularly realistic at all though. They would fit nicely on an early 00s KGX-Posh route as they are bloody lovely, the only issue would be that there were, based solely on memory, only three, perhaps four, units leased so they would be few and far between on the TSW route.
They look nice, although I notice the Roadmap article refers to timetables for the WCMLOS route which wouldn't be right for these wagons - they were enlarged to carry the Warrior IFVs in the 1990s.
I haven't seen mention of two versions of the wagon - but they'd either have to run empty or with a different load not already shown as both those vehicles need the modernised wagon to fit.
The 66 is only there to fulfil Dovetail's requirements that all packs must be self contained, so I'd assume I'd use the class 87/86 from Shap to run the services.
Cargo line volume 4 makes the ECML Railtour and GWR Diesel Legends DLC packs look like good value.... If this military pack is compatible with WCML Preston - Carlisle, why does it come with the class 66 again ????? The class 66 did not even exist in 1986.... What a joke this is.
Because all wagons need a loco attached. And as the Class 66 is the most numerous, it is used. Doesn't mean there'll be a Class 66 on Preston-Carlisle.
If this pack has default timetable services, yes it does.... Anybody hear loco substitutions mentioned? DTG could have dropped their class 31, 37, 40, 45 or 47 into the pack, but they haven't.
Well if you want to be "realistic" then the MRAP the cars carry didn't exist in 1986 either, so the whole pack "shouldn't" be available on Shap. I think it should be included as an option because some people just want to run it anyway and if YOU choose to not use it on Shap, then you're not harmed in the least by this pack existing. On the other hand, if you still want to use it on Shap with the 20 year out of date MRAP cargo, then you should know you're being a bit hypocritical in doing so. =-)
It's not WCMLoS it's WCMLS surely - WCMLS and GWE Edit: West Coast Main Line South not West Coast Main Line over Shap
The 66 is for more the GWE side than west coast main line 1980s, we still have about 2 months before it comes out so they will probably talk about the 1980 side
Hiya Thanks for the interest in Cargo Line Vol.4 Military. It is true that the Cargo Line releases have suffered delays and so they're going to be a little bunched up. There was a point where we though Vol4 might release before Vol3 which would have been awkward! I thought I would (hopefully) put some concerns to rest straight off: -The Class 66 is for use on the GWE gameplay only. -Services and scenarios for WCMLoS make use of traction supplied with that route in order to provide an authentic experience. Finally, I've attempted to answer the 'why another 66' concerns raised with each of our releases. This also attempts to answer some natural follow on questions that arise from this explanation. It's possible that even more questions could be raised, and its also possible that not everyone will agree with the explanation provided. However, we hope it provides a useful insight to an aspect that gains a lot of attention with each of our releases.
I would read the document but I can’t because I’m on mobile, could you post the whole on platform please?
For those that can't read the PDF: Why do Cargo Line packs keep including a Class 66? SHORT ANSWER: 1] It’s complicated. See ‘long answer’. 2] A Class 66 is the most appropriate locomotive to haul the wagons featured in the Cargo Line series. 3] The packs are focused on the freight wagons not the locomotive, which helps keep the price down. These are wagon add-ons, not locomotive add-ons. 4] By using a Class 66, the locomotive can be substituted with any other Class 66 available including reskins from Creators Club. VERY LONG ANSWER: Microsoft Train Simulator, Auran/n3v Trainz Simulator and Train Simulator Classic (predecessors to Train Sim World) are full of content that requires other content to work. A £2.99 pack may require £100+ of other packs before it can be used! Dovetail thus set a rule for TSW that all content must be playable 'out of the box'. Keep the player experience as easily accessible, smooth and simple as possible. RULE 1] "All DLC must work out of the box." From 2016 until 2022, Scenario Planner, Formation Designer and Free Roam features did not exist. This meant players of TSW during this time would only have access to whatever was provided. Packs could not contain just wagons or coaches. At a minimum there had to be a drivable vehicle. All Train Add-Ons hence forth focused on developing new drivable traction. However, this became an expensive hurdle for projects (a new drivable vehicle is a minimum) and a barrier for new developers (Learn to make a drivable vehicle just to get started). Before TSW3 in 2022 Train Add-Ons came with gameplay intended for a particular route. To meet RULE 1, the system could not allow a player to obtain a Train Add-On unless they already owned the route that pack had gameplay for. This was further impacted by the fact the core set of routes changed each year. Train Add-On developers could not predict what routes a player interested in their train, had. This was a massive hinderance to the accessibility of Train Add-Ons. "I own TSW, I don't own Tees Valley Line. Why can't I just have the Class 20 Diesel?". This is known as 'DLC for DLC' and is a problem. The solution was to create the Training Centre in 2022. By shipping the Training Centre with TSW3 there would now be a guaranteed common route that all players owned. Each Train Add-On would have somewhere to run, meeting the 'work out of the box' rule even if the player owned no other routes. All Train Add-Ons could now be accessible to all! Enter the Scenario Planner tool Also, with TSW3 came the Scenario Planner tool which would allow players to create their own gameplay by setting point to point runs on any compatible route. However, this tool does not allow the creation of custom train formations. or the placement of non-powered stock (all trains must be going somewhere). Players can only select from a pre-defined list of formations provided by each pack. RULE 2] "Scenario Planner requires pre-defined formations." As the Scenario Planner functionality is centred on trains moving from point to point, pre-defined trains for it must consist of drivable traction. The Training Centre initially only came with a Class 66 locomotive. Fine for modern UK content, but completely inappropriate for non-UK (2/3rds of all trains in TSW) or period content. So, to meet RULE 1 and RULE 2, appropriate traction must still be included. What about referencing existing stock to avoid duplication? The most obvious solution to avoid duplication is to reference the version that already exists. In our example, the Training Centre Class 66 should mean no other Class 66 ever need be added. It can be the de facto version for any Class 66 train. But what happens when a bug is found and must be fixed, or new functionality gets developed and added? Well, everything that references that vehicle must be retested to ensure it still works as expected or, changes and fixes are required. Simply changing a switch could impact a player objective using that switch, and that objective could be 2 hours into a scenario. Suddenly making the tiniest of changes has exponentially large test requirements - or in other words - the cost implication of any change becomes completely prohibitive. All the software developers are now screaming "VERSIONING". Great, so each new change to that central Class 66 is now versioned. Each reference is locked to a version and everything is safe again. You can then selectively bring content up to date when time allows (Will time ever allow though?). But this also requires incredible levels of development discipline. Things must be implemented according to strict rules. Developer B might want a new behaviour, but Developer A disagreed and implemented things their way. Now we have conflict restricting potential progress. Next, Developer A leaves the scene and Developer C has no idea of the history and makes a change they think is beneficial but has unforeseen consequences for Developer B still working on their project. This ‘central’ Class 66 will quickly become a cancer to all the content referencing it. Developer D decides they simply want to make their own Class 66 anyway, and it turns out Developer E likes the second one better and decides to reference that instead. Duplication reappears. Conclusion If versioning and referencing of content to reduce duplication was viable, it would already be widespread practice in Train Simulator Classic (15 years and counting) and Train Sim World (8 years and counting). All that complication, management and risk goes away if you just duplicate the item. Every pack is stand alone, independent, isolated, safe and risk free. It only has itself to blame if a bug appears and it only needs to be fixed and tested in one place. How does this all relate to the Cargo Line series? The Cargo Line series is required to abide by RULE 1 and RULE 2, and we’ve now explained why it’s also inappropriate to reference the Training Centre Class 66. What about the HKA Wagon Pack by Dovetail Games? The HKA Wagon Pack by Dovetail Games features a freight wagon with gameplay for the WCML London Euston to Milton Keynes route. It does not provide any self-powered vehicles in the pack. It was raised during development that this pack appears to be in breach of RULE 1 and RULE 2 >> The included Scenario Planner formations require the player to own WCML London Euston to Milton Keynes to make use of them, something that is not a guarantee given the availability of TSW5 versions without said route. I am unable to verify that if you buy a TSW5 version that does not include WCML London Euston to Milton Keynes, are you able to buy the HKA Wagon Pack DLC. If you can, you will have content you cannot make use of ‘out of the box’. Except, TSW5 also comes with a new tool… Enter the Formation Designer tool The launch of TSW5 in 2024 included the feature 'Formation Designer' which allows players to create their own trains from their own rolling stock library. For Cargo Line Vol.1 and 2 this came after their release so could not be considered when meeting the requirements of RULE 1 and RULE 2 for Train Add-Ons. For Cargo Line Vol.3 and 4, the reality is these two packs were designed, agreed and started before the availability of the Formation Designer tool. It is regrettable that Vol.3 and 4 have suffered extensive delays resulting in them only now becoming available. But it would not have been appropriate to redevelop these packs in the intervening time. Going Forward If may be that with the presence of the Formation Designer tool in TSW, RULE 1 and RULE 2 are made obsolete, and Train Add-Ons for TSW are no longer required to follow them. However, the inspiration behind RULE 1 is to: “Keep the player experience as easily accessible, smooth and simple as possible”. If players do not own the routes where the provided gameplay takes place and are thus required to first make their own formations so they can then make custom content with the Scenario Planner, that is not keeping things accessible and simple. We believe that is not what a large portion of the TSW player base wants to do to experience their new trains. So, it is currently the view of Skyhook Games that we will continue to maintain RULE 1 and RULE 2 of TSW Train Add-Ons for the enjoyment of our products.
They're also reason enough not to buy the DLC "We're charging you £10 for a wagon and a few timetable services. The class 66 with it's broken headlights is free... but only because we have to."
It’s better than having to wait literal years for wagons, so I’m still going to buy it and well I like military vehicles but still wish there was proper tanks like tsc
I wouldn't expect much more than the wagons at that price. You essentially get 3 wagons (3 conditions/liveries) for a tenner. A livery pack on sale is rarely that cheap, even on TSC, and this isn't a livery it's 3 new models. Not as complicated as a loco perhaps, but I think it's definitely worth it if you want military cargo. I'm still not clear on how applicable it is on how many routes it will work with (in services/scenarios, not Free Roam) I didn't pick up the Vol 3 because intermodals are a bit...bland... for my taste and on limited routes, but Vol 1 and Vol 2 were a lot more useful and fun to use. Either way, if you want military loads this is definitely worth the price. But for people that can't spare a tenner, wait 6 months to a year and get it for a fiver. That's a long time to wait to save 5 pounds but.... to each their own.
I know many german players who would love a german/austrian Cargo line even with the usually broken 185. last modern cargo wagons we got were the Eanos with the Railpool vectron in TSW4's release. TSG is making some older wagons for their routes though
Yeah, SONY and Microsoft don't like to play ball. But, that's what console players have to deal with.
I read it as a very long winded way as saying, no one can be bothered/has the resources/skill to make a Class 56, 59, 60, 68 or 70 despite the fact it would sell like hot cakes.
In a sense, but I don't think that's on skyhook. If they did make a new loco they certainly wouldn't be charging the same price that they do now for the cargo lines dlc.
Yeah, if it was offering brand new locos, it would be a loco add-on, which these packs are not intended to be. Sure, I'd love to see some new modern locos, but there's no point getting bogged down in these packs not being a completely different concept. At least, that's how I see it.
100% agree - While I'd absolutely love to see some new UK freight locomotives, the cargo line packs are wagon add-ons. I can remember back in my early days of starting TSW being in the exact position of seeing a train DLC and not getting why I couldn't just buy it and run it - and then also having picked up DLC and having to make a whole customer scenario and add all the AI trains before I could drive my $9 train DLC. Some may think rule 1 is a cop out but I can ABSOLUTELY see it being the thing that makes the difference in someone staying/going after trying it out. I also happen to have extremely weird pairings of routes installed on my PS5 (not everything at once) so not nuking half my DLC if I happen to not want WCML or GWE or SEHS on my PS at the time really helps. (Right now I've got BML/ECW, CCL & Goblin)
