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Central Line For Tsw2

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by djhawtin1, Mar 29, 2021.

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  1. djhawtin1

    djhawtin1 Well-Known Member

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    Hi all, i was thinking that the Central line would be Good in TSW 2.
    As usual i am going to split this thread into 3 sectors
    Route Description and Services
    So the Central Line runs from Ealing Broadway to Epping. Unlike the Bakerloo, theres a lot of Abandoned Station so DTG Could do some Easter Eggs on those stations and this rout maybe not include the Hainault Loop And/Or The branch up to Ruislip so on that Part is Up to DTG But ont the Locomotives.
    Locomotives
    1992 Stock
    [​IMG]
    These are what are used On Central and W&C Lines
    1962 Stock
    [​IMG]
    These would of run on the Early 90's with 92 stock gradually taking over and replacing these units
    Conclusion
    This route currently uses ATO But maybe the route could be set Pre-ATO operation
    and would be Perfect because it would be like HMA because it's the Second installment of the Underground.
    [And please in the Comment box, Can it be ONLY constructive Critisism and No Childish Remarks Please -Dj]
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
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  2. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    With 49 stations on the Central line I’m not sure that DTG are going to want to model any disused ones as well. What pre-ato period were you thinking of? The line was opened in 1900 so there’s been a fair amount of pre-ato running.
     
  3. djhawtin1

    djhawtin1 Well-Known Member

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    I Mean, and as shown the 1992 stock, the Early 90's
     
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  4. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    ATO didn't come fully on the Central line until 2001 so the route can be set in 2000 or the 90s with the 1992 tube stock. Personally if there was another London Underground line, I think it should be a sub surface line
     
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  5. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    You will need to be more definitive with your dates. The modernization of the line, including new trains (with ATO) and new signaling took place between 1992-5. Go before 1992 and you’ve different stock and signaling. Between 1992-1995 what the situation is would depend on the date. Post 1995 and you have at least some ATO. Its not as simple as saying take an ATO train and put it into a non ATO period.
     
  6. djhawtin1

    djhawtin1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes but my friend, who is now on the Piccadilly used to be on the Central and was one of the first people trained on the 92 stock and he said they didn't use it until the late 90's and i want this to be Set just after these trains were introduced and put into service so this could be a possibility with 62 and 92 Stock
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    ATO wasn't constructed on the Cental Line until 1999 and completed in 2001. The 1992 tube stock had drivers manually operating them. The 1992 stock also have coded manual mode meaning that the ATO is disabled if coded manual is on and the 92 stock could be driven to the track speed limit. If the driver exeeds the track speed limit with the coded manual mode on, alarms go off and the emergency breaks would apply because of the atp system so the 1992 tube stock can be driven manually so the Central line could be set in modern day with ato signals and the player could set the 92 stock to coded manual and drive the train manually but can't exceed the speed limit
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
  8. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    djhawtin1 I’m not sure what your friend is saying that is different. The 92 stock was introduced in April 1993, in that transition period I mentioned. You seem to be skipping that the signaling, and any associated track work, is as much of an issue as what stock was present. Transitional periods are not a good idea for the game, if nothing else where would DTG get all the relevant information, plus the need to model multiple signaling systems. So you either go pre 1992 with the old stock and signal structure or post with the new stock and the upgrades in place. Of course if you go post then the issue becomes how much ATO there was at the time you have set.
     
  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I always thought that the 1992 stock couldn't be driven manually but apparently it can be in coded manual mode. I find that interesting but it makes sense if the ato system were to fail. So the Central line could be set in like 2020 and the player could drive the train in coded manual mode and drive to the track speed limit if they don't want to drive it automatically. It seems there would be no need to set this route in a transitional period then
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
  10. djhawtin1

    djhawtin1 Well-Known Member

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    So your saying a Piccadilly driver who work on the Central between 1970-2002 and then 2002-2008 on the W&C Doesn't know what he is on about? Don't make me laugh. He was one of the first trained drivers on the type and was an Instructor on the 92's
     
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  11. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    djhawtin1 you really need to read the feedback to your thread a little more carefully. What I said was that he and I were saying the same thing, not that he was wrong. You like tallboy7648 seem intent in creating conflict and being rude to try to drive people off the thread. You guys are so keen to stick up yet another subway thread you don’t do your homework. The 90s was for the most part a transitional period for the line, anything but the ‘perfect’ scenario. You are trying to avoid ATO as you know that effectively kills the idea so instead you turn yourselves into pretzels trying to find out how you can use ATO stock in an non ATO environment. Going before 1992 makes the most sense, but then you’ll have to deal with the sources DTG will need to build the line.
    The fact that you know someone who might have useful information and instead put up one of the sorriest proposals out there just shows you aren’t prepared, like others, to do the work on this. All you want is a counter so your group can vote it up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
  12. djhawtin1

    djhawtin1 Well-Known Member

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    One I Rarely post about Subway stuff and secondly, check your wording because you say i am the one who creates conflict and your the one who starts it because of your history of being a troll
     
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It seems your trying to cause conflict. Your the one who calls people who don't agree with you "aggressive" and say other childish remarks. I was just talking about how the 92 stock has a coded manual which is on the 1992 tube stock. A google search proves that so that is a fact. You can drive the 1992 stock manually on the ato central line with coded manual on but can only go to the track speed limit which is basically the speed limit on the line. It can be set in 2020 and you could just set the train to coded manual if a player doesn't want to have automatic operations. Once the stock came on the line ato wasn't implemented immediately so it wasn't a ato train when it came into service. The 1992 tube stock is on the Waterloo & City line as well and has manual operation so the 1992 tube stock is not a ato train.

    Are you a sensitive person or something or do you have a habit of constantly misinterpreting people?
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
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  14. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    tallboy7648 it isn’t uncommon for stock not to use all its capabilities on day one, and however it was used on another line has little value. The Central Line in the 1990s is a poor choice. You only focus on the stock and not the other issues like the signaling which are also key. To make the line realistic DTG need to put the right signaling in place. There’s a big difference between the old and the new signaling. If you go to the 2000s then you get into players ‘turning off ATO if they want to’. That’s not a simulation of the Central Line in that period.
    Your problem and djhawtin1 is that you’ve chosen a really bad period to try and represent the Central Line. It was a transition period. But rather than research a proposal you stick to an inappropriate time period. That transition is going to be the reason DTG wouldn’t make this proposal. There’s just too much noise and trying to set it accurately would be difficult.
    Setting the Central Line in a different period with other stock would make a better proposal but rather than listen to that feedback you revert to ‘Are you a sensitive person or something’.
    A better proposal, and lets be honest this one is poor, would have seen these problems rather than describing the situation as ‘perfect’ Proposals like this don’t get made because they have a range of complexities that makes them too much work and therefore uneconomic.
     
  15. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Ok so the central line could be set in 2020 or 2021. I've been saying that the line could be set in 2020 if you know how to read. The 1992 tube stock still has coded manual and therefore the player could turn off ato and turn on coded manual and if they don't want to have ato on the player can turn it off. It's like lzb on hma and ska which is effectively automation. In real life drivers would have them on but in the sim, the players don't have to have them on. It's not a simulation of how the ice is supposed to be driven but it's the players choice on how they want to enjoy their experince. Not all players have the safety systems of the train on and whilst in real life drivers would have them on and it may not be a true sim experience, it's the players choice. DTG can develop the ato signals. They have developed complex signals before like lzb, kvb, tvm and others so acting like they can't do that makes no sense. What I've noticed about you is that you think dtg can't develop complex or great things when time and time again, they have. They have the talent to do great things but you seem to doubt their abilities.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
  16. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    tallboy7648 not doubting their abilities but ATO signals when players aren’t using ATO sounds problematic. And again, why would you choose a line/period where to get people to buy it you have to turn off one of the key features? Why not rethink the proposal?
     
  17. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't sound problematic. Is having lzb off on the ice 3 which is effectively Automatic Train Control problematic? Is having pzb German singals with pzb off problematic? I sometimes don't have lzb or pzb on and it's not a problem. The german singals are complex but the hud would just show a Green Circle, Yellow or red just like if ato signals were implemented. Also you don't have to turn off the feature. It would be an option like how a player has the option to have lzb and afb off on the ice which are effectively automatic train operation. If the player wants to drive with ato, they can and if they don't, it can be disabled so the route can indeed be set in modern day
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
  18. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    tallboy7648 but why not choose a different period when you can run the stock realistically? Looking at the voting on the proposal it’s hardly got universal support. Perhaps others think turning off ATO isn’t what they want?
     
  19. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The poll doesn't even represent the majority of the playerbase and I'm pretty sure you know any London Underground route would sell and technically you would be running the stock realistically because you would have ato and the player would have the option to turn it off and set the 92 stock in coded manual if they want to. Ever heard of a choice? Having lzb off on the ice isn't realistic or having aws off isn't realistic either but not all players have those things on and you can't deny that. I think this route should be in modern day (2020 or later). The 92 stock still has coded manual

    Also when there was a poll for what London Underground route should be in the game, the circle line usually got the most votes and that line has ato in certain areas but can be driven manually as well the whole way.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
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  20. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    tallboy7648 ‘and that line has automatic in certain areas but can be driven manually’

    Only if they are modern representations of the route. Is that why you are doing all those pretzels over the ATO, you only want modern versions of the route? That’s why you won’t look at other periods?

    Am I pretty sure ‘any London Underground route’ would sell. No, I’m not. And you don’t know either. The Bakerloo came with the base game so whether or not that would sell on its own isn’t clear either. I do know that a route which is based on an ATO period, even if you have ‘choice’ to use the ATO or not, isn’t likely to sell.
     
  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The demand for London Underground routes says they would sell pretty well. If that's what players want, it's not difficult to see the outcome sales wise. The Waterloo & City line would probably have to come with another line because I can't say it would do well as a standalone route since it's pretty short
     
  22. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    tallboy7648 what demand? You’ve no data. Ever notice how the Bakerloo line is rarely mentioned in the forum? It’s because its not a popular route to play.
     
  23. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It was on a dtg list I saw of most requested routes. I forgot how high it was. Yes the Bakerloo isn't talked about much but the Bakerloo line was not the most requested London Underground route to be in the game in the first place. DTG even said that. It was more of a experiment and I assume you know that.
     
  24. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    The Bakerloo probably was the easiest choice of a tube line, avoiding your pretzels. As to being an ‘experiment’ I’m not even sure what that means, anymore than you do. After it was one of the included lines in the release of the new game. So you don’t have any data on the demand for subway routes and the likely sales. That was just your ‘feeling’
     
  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Matt said it was a experiment in the Geoff Marshall video to see how it would do. The 70s pack was a experiment as well so your telling me I don't know what a experiment is because I certainly do know what experiments are especially when the company says it's a experiment

    I found the list so here's your proof. It was posted in November 2020 and it was put by a member of the community because it was said in a dtg gwe tsw2 stream. London Underground ranks number 4 so saying that London Underground isn't hugely requested is simply not true. Take a look through the whole thread. It doesn't mean the routes will be made but it gives dtg an idea of what players want

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/list-of-top-23-route-suggestions-for-tsw-2.31425/
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
  26. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Will be an excellent route to play since it can introduce players automatic train operation the same concept that might be added later on like the Thameslink provided DTG gets license from Govia to put in into the game. Later on United States 7 E,F,L,M & R trains state of New York Metropolitan Transportation Agency Subway.
     
  27. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    tallboy7648 I saw the Marshall video and I think you are clutching at straws. What was the experiment? And if there was an experiment do we know the results? Perhaps the experiment was to see if a deep underground line would be embraced by the community? In the end it went into the first release of the new game. If there was a poll would it get into the top 3 favorite lines? Top 10? Top 20?

    And all that list does is verify what the subway fans are doing. Flood the suggestions sub forum with subway routes, someone goes through and counts up the number of suggestions and then produces a poll. Then surprise subways are the most popular request. Once you know that the poll isn’t scientific its not hard to fix.
     
  28. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    Please remember that every user is allowed to suggest any route or loco they would personally like to see. That doesn't guarantee it will come to fruition, but there is no harm in a suggestion.
     
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  29. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    That’s at least partly because the route has issues mainly the poor sounds in tunnels and the trains are buggy, often can’t move even when the cab is set up correctly. Timetable mode falls apart due to the erratic save game process, leaving you stuck without a schedule and all the AI frozen. In theory it should have been a great route to run, role playing, over time, a driver’s full eight hour shift but the potential has gone down the drain. If we were to see another London underground route, regardless of line or era, then these core issues must be addressed.
     
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  30. djhawtin1

    djhawtin1 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Natalie, i have been trying for Ages for someone from DTG to say that to Medilinexpat
     
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  31. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    He has only tried to help with your suggestion on this thread. You specifically asked for constructive criticism. Don’t complain when you get it otherwise everyone will just start ignoring your suggestions.
     
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  32. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    DTG Natster at what point does DTG understand the problems that posters like djhawtin1 are causing? There is a subway group, organized on other social media platforms who have figured out that flooding this sub forum with requests for subway lines is a way to get more of their content - a lot more. You will even find calls on these forums to organize on Reddit, Facebook and Youtube. It would be a mistake for DTG to see that as useful publicity. There are plenty of examples of how harmful organized social media content can be.
    Most of the subway suggestions on here are repetitive and contain little content. If you try to argue the case against proposals you will get multiple posters telling you to stop posting. You can see djhawtin1 glee that you may have told me off. They’ve won. You’ve turned this suggestion forum into positive only response.
    DTG Natster I guess you will ignore this on the basis that the increased forum usage is a sign that you are succeeding at your job. Of course the Subway group are crowding out useful content and will in time poison the forum and damage the game.
     
  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    My reason for not wanting that much transit runs (under or overground) is because there is very little variation in what you do. You start at one end, stop at every station then terminate at the other end. Even when there are slight different terminators the bit in between is the same. At least on heavy rail there are variations in service

    On this point specifically...
    To me the safety systems of the train are the most basic and in almost every case (if not indeed every case) all the warning systems are OFF by default when scenarios or timetable runs start, so this wouldn't really be that much different...
     
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  34. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    I understand why you would feel frustrated seeing similar posts for the subways posted continuously, but as explained above everyone is entitled to voice what they would like.

    Does this guarantee that we will 100% commit to making the route just because they have suggested it? No it does not.

    As you have explained, some of these posts lack substance. We can see what type of posts are genuine interest and which ones are simply trying to get more numbers.
    And we always encourage the community to be as detailed as possible when suggesting a route. The more detailed the better.

    You can of course express that it's not a route you want to see and why you don't want it, but you can't try and stop someone else from wanting it because you don't agree with them.
     
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  35. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    DTG Natster that sounds even handed but you miss several points. Many of the subway, often one line requests, are being opened by new users. The subway group have figured out that ‘most requested routes’ is driven by this forum. So get a new user handle, log in and start a new thread. ‘i want line xxxx as it will be perfect and make DTG a lot of money’. When you ask how they know it will be popular they will then quote how popular requests for subway routes are. Its a circle. This isn’t the first time this has happened. A while back a group who wanted North Eastern US routes used exactly the same process. And DTG stupidly then talk about most requested lines.

    Over the past week or so I’ve tried to debate some of these threads, pointing out the issues there would be in building them. In return I’ve received a lot of abuse, mostly telling me to stop posting but in others more personal comments. You have ignored that haven’t you? You talk a about not stopping people asking for what they want but you seem less concerned about what happens to people who question some of the proposals.

    In the end comments on the proposals are useful to DTG. While it is true that you don’t guarantee 100% to make suggested routes if they don’t see more subway routes in response to their demand they will eventually turn on DTG for not listening to them. They want subway routes in the current era many of which are automatic train operation. Want to kill your product, go down that route. Its a very niche part of the train simulation market.
     
  36. djhawtin1

    djhawtin1 Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, I am not new and i am only suggesting this because my friend used to work on this line and if i wanted a route be made its the Cross City Line in Birmingham (Click Cross city line below please)
    The central didn't use ATO until the early 2000's
    And your getting a load of abuse because your Vulgar Attitude towards everyone
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
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  37. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    DTG Natster presumably ‘And your getting a load of abuse because your Vulgar Attitude towards everyone’ is fine as the poster is just expressing his desire for a line. As other posters have commented I’ve been offering constructive comments but djhawtin1 seems emboldened by your earlier messages.
     
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  38. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    I have locked this thread, and your suggestion has been noted.

    The discussion decended into arguments and I am not going to waste my time and yours by repeating what is and isn't acceptable for a suggestion. Please read my earlier comments above.
     
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