Core Update

Didn't a few Boeing 737 Max's crash due to software issues?

rennekton#1349 is quite right that no software is completely bugfree, especially not when it has to interop with hardware.
the difference is, they will be more tested and will need to be certified.
when a plane crashes, an external organisation will ground the planes until it's fixed.

 

Glad you are on top of the reasons for the horrible stutters TSW5 is afflicted with, I am sure you won't be making the same mistakes with TSW6...

 

Yep, was a pretty severe scandal, given how it could have been avoided at several steps prior to the planes starting to drop out of the sky, and contributing factors included cost-saving measures (A reminder that corner-cutting short term savings can be very costly indeed in the long-term).

It's pretty harrowing going over the cockpit recordings of one of those flights and the desperate measures taken by the crew to try and fight against the system that had decided to put the plane into a nosedive. Especially knowing afterwards that one of the actions they took towards the end absolutely sealed their fate, as unbeknownst to them it reactivated one of the systems trying to kill them.

 

I was reading some time ago that the flight computers still used floppy disks on some aircraft. Don't know if there's any truth to it.

 

Does anyone know why the SNG Sprinter struggles so much when using it on other routes? (I mean when accelerating and braking)

 

The problem with the 737 MAX was more a one of trusting in modern computer systems without an easily available, fully explained manual override available if the system had a fault. Which unfortunately, due to oversights in the design, such as relying on a single AOA sensor prone to failure, it often did.

 

DTG Matt Thanks for the response! Nice to get some honest feedback and information on some of the issues.

Also thanks for prioritising this, it's an incredibly annoying bug if someone tries to do a couple of services back-to-back. Especially in light of Mittenwaldbahn having a ton of shunting operations split into multiple services.

Speaking of Mittenwaldbahn... any ETA on those fixes which apparently seem to be in the pipeline, if I may ask kindly?

 

Steam needed an update. Once I did that it came through

 

I remember when this bit from Robocop was satire:

• [for demonstration, Mr. Kinney points a pistol at ED-209]
• ED-209: [menacingly] Please put down your weapon. You have twenty seconds to comply.
• LOVE Jones: I think you'd better do what he says, Mr. Kinney.
• [Mr. Kinney drops the pistol on the floor. ED-209 advances, growling]
• ED-209: You now have fifteen seconds to comply.
• [Mr. Kinney turns to LOVE Jones, who looks nervous]
• ED-209: You are in direct violation of Penal Code 1.13, Section 9.
• [entire room of people in full panic trying to stay out of the line of fire, especially Mr. Kinney]
• ED-209: You have five seconds to comply.
• Kinney: Help...! Help me!
• ED-209: Four... three... two... one... I am now authorized to use physical force!
• [ED-209 opens fire and shreds Mr. Kinney]

Without getting too spoilery, that kind of hubris is also a factor in Horizon Zero Dawn's setting.

 

DTG may I ask if these bugs will live on in TSW6 ?

Because TSW5 was actually just an improved TSW4.
So TSW6 would just be an improved version of TSW5.

Would be very nice if you could answer that.

 

Certainly something worth trying.

The biggest issue is not so much the hitching, but the fact it now plays havoc with the sound which, as I related earlier, didn’t seem to be such a problem prior to TSW5. It really destroys what should be the pure smooth whine of electric traction in particular when you get that lip smacking effect totally nerf the sounds.

While you’re responding Matt, can I also politely ask where we got to as regards extra save game slots and curing the loss of objective data when saving and resuming a chained run. Many thanks.

 

I see. Yeah there should be a backup.

 

I just went back to the Cardiff City Line thread to double check and clarify, and in the preview stream it was confirmed it isn't a 1:1 timetable. So it may have a noticeable amount of traffic but it isn't a complete replica of the real life timetable.

 

Ahh, okay! Thanks.

 

I hear our boy Richard shows up in one of the dioramas on the new TSW: Stockport - SLOVEhorpe route!

 

Also present on the LOVEtone line

 

Further to what Matt said about the Nvidia Shader cache, on checking mine was set to "driver default" which I think is 4Gb. So I've increased that to 10Gb initially, see what if any difference that makes.

 

And what can be done for the PS5?

 

Hi.
Is it better?

 

As far as I know, this option is only available in the NVIDA card settings, in the control panel on your PC.

I left the option on unlimited, which really makes a difference, but on routes like Frankfurt-Fulda and WCML South I always have problems with stuttering in busy areas (Hanau, Frankfurt/Euston, Wembley Yard).

 

Good grief. Must have been the forum software. Should be the diminutive of Richard.

 

Err....Thanks?

 

Two different subjects unfortunately, the stutter that OldVern is hoping to solve is shader compilation stutter, which doesn't happen on consoles.

The reason it happens on PC is because all the shader calculations are done the first time the GPU has to display something new. Those calculations can be stored in the shader compilation cache, which is why on subsequent runs you eliminate the stutter, unless of course your cache is too small and older calculations get deleted to make room for new ones, or you update your graphics driver which wipes the cache.

The reason shaders aren't pre-compiled is because of the vast array of GPUs in use, each GPU, even down to which driver version it is running, needs a different set of shader calculations. Conoles are set architecture, so all shader compilation is already built into the game we download, nothing needs to be calculated during play.

Frame rates tanking in areas like Franfurt sadly aren't caused by either of the issues Matt was talking about earlier in the thread, the only way those will get fixed is if DTG either optimise their code, or identify particular in game assets that cause the performance problems - I remember Blackpool Branches suffered poor performance on the approach to Blackpool North which was fixed when they changed something to do with a graveyard built into the scenary!

 

Started a run on WCMLOS and as soon as speed got above about 60 MPH with the loco under full power, the jitters and sound squelching was going full tilt. So I don't think that's the solution unfortunately.

Sadly going by what Matt said, seems the only solution to what appears to be a problem endemic with UE, is to abandon that platform as the basis for a train simulation product.

 

Are you reporting after your first run on that route since upping the limit?

 

Yes, so guess I do need to go back in and try again, but I'm almost reluctant to do it. I have no confidence this gas fixed anything.

 

Well the key point is you do it once to build the cache and then it's saved (It's a bit like making cake batter then complaining it isn't cooked). You should notice an improvement on subsequent runs until it deletes the cache as it hits the limit. It won't be completely gone but should be reduced.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear Radon's shader cache can be resized.

 

It has always been there, just the rolling stock that rarely gets into the game anew now comes with much richer sound sets than before. When you caught the stutter while pressing horn for example, I remember the frequency shenanigans as early as on RRO. There is just not too much that can go audibly wrong with the single monotonous idle sound of 185 and similar ancient models that lack any dynamic part to them.

 

It seems a bit backward that rather than pre compile shaders on the initial loading of a route, it will add what? A couple of mins to the loading time! Instead we have to drive the entire route, some that take well over an hour to complete. Come tsw 6 launch day, with all my dlc we are now talking several hours the compile the shaders! Like wth!

 

If I can bring myself to do it, I will.

But the vibe I’m getting that these issues are pretty much here to stay so long as TSW remains a UE product is really starting to put me off the whole thing, despite the money invested. Really starting to think the HD space better used to reinstall TSC, MSFS2020 or even SimRail.

 

I wonder since Matt explicitly mentioned UE4, would moving to UE5 improve this at all?

 

Yep, the hitching caused by the World Origin Rebasing issue Matt decribed is quite off-putting. TSW is a great sim, but as soon as those stutters occur it really is an immersion killer. Routes such as ECML,WCML give me the most problems in that respect, routes such as MML, GWE,NTP, even Shap (up to a point) run very nicely. Simrail with Unity is very smooth, however, on my modest system, I'm just wondering if UE was the right choice for train sims. Unsure really. Just wondering if those folks with high end systems still get the stuttering based on World Origin Rebasing. If so, there is an issue with engine choice here.
That aside, I still enjoy TSW as a whole, the earlier routes run fantastically well.

 

I got chat GPT to look at what Matt said about the TSW problem and it came back with a solution that points to upgrading the engine. If you are interested have a read below
________________________________________
Absolutely—moving Train Sim World (TSW) to Unreal Engine 5 (UE5) could help solve some major pain points, but not necessarily all of them. Here’s how it breaks down:

1. Shader Compilation Hitches
UE5 still compiles shaders, and this process can still cause hitching, especially on first load.

However, UE5 improves shader pipeline efficiency, and developers can precompile more shaders in advance using tools like Shader Pipelines and PSO Caching, which reduces runtime hiccups.

On PC, this would be more flexible. On console (like PS5/Pro), the dev team would need to properly use those tools for smoother performance.

So: Not completely gone, but potentially much better if implemented well.

2. World Origin Rebasing
Here’s the big one.

UE4 limitation: Uses a 32-bit coordinate system that breaks down when you get far from world origin (hence rebasing).

UE5 introduces World Partition & Large World Coordinates (LWC):

LWC replaces 32-bit with 64-bit precision, which means no more rebasing needed.

That could eliminate the big hitch TSW players feel on long routes.

So: YES, this problem could be entirely solved by moving to UE5 with LWC.

3. Garbage Collection and Asset Streaming
UE5 has smarter memory management and streaming.

"Virtual Assets" and "Nanite" reduce the load on CPU/GPU and allow better performance on detailed scenes.

Garbage collection (GC) can be smoother with UE5’s improvements, especially if paired with better route design.

4. What’s the Catch?
Massive engineering lift. TSW is a huge, mature project with tons of custom systems. Moving to UE5 isn’t a quick upgrade—it’s a rebuild in places.

DLC compatibility, route assets, lighting systems, UI—all need adapting or reworking.

Nanite and Lumen, UE5’s big features, don’t really work for foliage-heavy outdoor environments yet, or they’re too heavy for current-gen consoles.

TLDR:
Problem UE5 Helps? Notes
Shader Compilation Yes-ish Needs proper setup by devs.
World Origin Rebasing Yes! LWC could eliminate this completely.
Garbage Collection Hitches Yes Better memory management tools.
General Performance Yes UE5 is more efficient overall.
Simple drop-in fix? Nope. It’s a major project to migrate.

 

That’s useful, Warpshell. In the meantime, as I pointed out in Enough Is Enough thread, maybe it’s time DTG and the associates curbed their ambitions a bit as to what they’re asking the game engine to do. NTP on the PS5 this morning actually ran pretty smooth with minimal hitching and sound glitching. Those older routes and traction were probably much less detailed than the demands the insanely detail stuffed Shap route with a scripted Class 87 on the edge of what Simugraph is capable of, is asking the game to do. I’m not quite prepared to spend £33 on Shap to see how it runs on the PS5 vs. my PC but I bet it’s still not half as smooth as NTP.

 

My problem is I started to work my way through TSW from the earliest releases doing all the UK timetables and scenarios. It is either a nobel effort or I have a sad life? I have worked up to South Eastern High Speed and I notice a big performance drop, come out of the tunnel from Stratford to Ebbsfleet where you pass through a large train siding it hops there, going into Ashford it really takes a beating, it ain't pretty. It is a very good route, the most complete UK route I have played, it has everything, you can never get bord, but for UK routes it is the turning point, I played the Isle of Wright before no problem, Bakerloo before that and it was Ok.

So, now that the cat is out of the bag, is there really much point in buying any more DLCs going forward? Maybe DTG and the community need to cut their loses and move to another engine and the community need to be onboard because it probably means they might be able to pick some DLCs to carry over, but not all as they will have to be rebuilt from scratch probably.

 

Even if a decision was made to change engine, it is far from a smooth process for a team used to working with the current engine. Just look at the fiasco with the now abandoned Football Manager 25 after problems with getting the Unity engine to perform well.

A decision like that probably means DTG abandoning a big annual release and maybe spending at least 2 years on something new from scratch. That might mean even fewer fixes to the current core as the team is more focused on building something new, and new DLC limited to what 3rd parties are able to put out.

Some might accept that as the better long term plan but at the same time it does mean accepting some huge trade offs for the company. At the end of the day the benefits would have to outweigh the costs to the company and at the moment that metric probably isn't in favour of a switch yet. The summary warpshell did for UE5 helps to show that. It would be interesting to do the same comparison with other engines like Unity.

 

Couple of reminders:

DTG's own implementation of UE4 is heavily modified to suit TSW's needs, including (I believe has been said) some UE5 changes.

Even the seemingly small point upgrades from 4.20 to 4.23 and 4.23 to 4.26 brought major hassles. UE5 is still being developed and updated regularly; UE4 is at least stable and safe, which may be more important.

ChatGPT can be a springboard for ideas, but is not at all reliable and should not be used as evidence for anything without every point raised being manually verified.

 

It's funny how the TLDR completely ignores the major problem that "Nanite and Lumen, UE5’s big features, don’t really work for foliage-heavy outdoor environments yet", so using UE5 would mean saying goodbye to scenary heavy routes like Niddertalbahn and Spoorlijn Zwolle - Groningen, no thanks.

 

Chat GPT may come up with some solutions, but at the end of the day we are still driving on a tile system.

 

Yeah, there would be a transitional bump period moving from UE4 to UE5, so bugs will be everywhere, if DTG are using UE5 out if the box they might not have to spend time changing it or they might, I don't know, but it is not straight forward moving engines for all involved.

 

Well, switching to UE5 might improve the core but it probably wouldn't change the business plan and the content of the game which are my main beefs with TSW .

 

UE5 would help nothing.

The game engine isn't the problem, it's how it's used, and given that DTG have heavily modified UE4 to suit their needs, it's more hassle than it's worth.

 

Are we taking about the same problem here though with the sound squelches? Tsw has for as long as i can remember had the brief pause when new scenery gets loaded but these squelches are something which happen every few seconds and only seem to have started in TSW5?

 

Yes the sound squelching is definitely since TSW5, in fact might not even have been present at the very start as I only really noticed it after the Shap route came out.

 

I have my thoughts that the more interactive map has something to do with this, as its apparently always running and clearly takes some system resources.

 

A bigger, more advanced game studio might look to develop the game engine that SCS use for ETS and ATS.
Prism3D appears to be proficient in rendering a moving world map with physics simulation.

 

I remember it in TSW1 on MSB. Had to stop playing with headphones.