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Cross Country Licence Expiring

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by longo239, Oct 10, 2020.

  1. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
  2. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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  3. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    Since this appears to be the last chance to get the route is it worth having?
     
  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The route is by JT so will likely be available direct from their website. DTG may have to take the content down but JT may be able to continue
     
  5. Odd1ne

    Odd1ne Member

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    They might carry on as they still sell the virgin pendo even though dovetail retired theirs
     
  6. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    Not sure if this is possible/legit but could devs sell unbranded routes/trains and make freeware branding packs.
     
  7. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Not a bad price on Steam for the time being. Doesn't seem to be discounted in the Dovetail store though, which seems strange.
     
  8. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    It's legit for the devs to build, with no branding.

    Any packs like this can be easily modified to include branding by the livery editing community and made available on ATS for instance.

    Keeping the dev out of the branding chain keeps things simple and no terms are broken.
     
  9. Sproutmask

    Sproutmask Member

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    This is true - DTG had to withdraw their Arriva Trains Wales content, including the Welsh Marches route, once ATW's franchise ended. The route returned to Steam a few months later with unbranded stock. The unbranded version installs separately to the branded, and was provided free to owners of the branded route. Hopefully DTG will make enough in extra sales (and goodwill - I think they played this well in the end) that it will be worth whatever it cost to create the unbranded stock.
     
  10. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    The still sell the Virgin Voyager and the XC Voyager but I don't think they sell the Pendolino
    Do you have a link to it?

    Peter
     
  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Whilst this isn't actually true in fact it works out the same in reality

    DTG as a "medium sized company" is likely to be held to IP law and fi they broke a contract would not only likely be sued by the company or person who held the IP, they would find it much harder to get future agreements with companies who want to hold onto their IP rights and not let people use logos, body shapes or whatever else is copyright or trademarked.
    A single or low level dev is less likely to be sued, but "cease and desist" is still very much a possibility (which happened to AP in the case of virgin I believe), so "no terms are broken" isn't true, the law in it's strictest sense IS being broken, but nothing much will be done about it unless someone's charging
     
  12. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Which is why there are a lot of reskins for liveries under copyright as they are free and nobody benefits
    Apart from the players :)
     
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  13. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    How is this not true? How would a dev be responsible for something they haven't made?

    I think you'll find what I stated is true, and it works out the same in reality. Nice try though :)
     
  14. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Even that could be dangerous, it really does come down to the copyright of the livery itself. Some companies (not naming them, Virgin) require a license even to use the unbranded livery (apart from the red/black livery it seems). Most companies, though, don't seem to care as long as you're not using the logo (even so, there's probably some who don't care that much)
     
  15. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    If liveries and branding are an issue, don't go there - use a livery that will present no legal issues.

    If the community want to add realistic branding to their models, that's at their discretion.

    I don't think that a livery or logo should be a barrier to a locomotive being built.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The DEV hasn't broken terms, the reskinner has
     
  17. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    No terms are broken by the dev.

    I'm not the re-skinner, and the re-skinner can usually do what he likes within the realms of fair use.
     
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  18. Sharon E

    Sharon E Active Member

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    Well that is a good close out price.
     
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  19. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking of the broader issues that if the franchises are withdrawn then the likes of DTG and JT are going to have a lot of stock they cannot sell.
     
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  20. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Stuff like this should really be on the forums too.
     
  21. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Which basically means they're selling BR or fictional liveries (see the original 390 which had IC Swallow, GNER ("Navy & Orange") and LMS ("Crimson Lake") liveries). Present day DTG won't go anywhere near that sort of thing to build and sell - especially given that as recently as April this year the original 390's getting criticised for having fictional liveries. upload_2020-10-10_16-50-35.png
     
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  22. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I don't see the big deal... Just reskin it, or download something like the Virgin reskin by Horgy for the original 390. It's rubbish (the original 390... not Horgy's reskin), but it's more than good enough for AI, and now the new one actually has windows, just reskin it yourself, or wait... a 3rd Party reskin (or a patch for the many existing ones) will be along in no time, just wait and see.
     
  23. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    It's not the most exciting route if I'm honest, but you never know when it will be a requirement for something else you want, so at a tenner.. I'd grab it. There's nothing worse that realising in a year or two that something you REALLY want relies on a DLC that's been withdrawn. Ask all the people who never got North Wales Coastal, or South Wales etc.

    As for the Voyager... I'd rather recommend Just Trains' version, which comes with Cross Country livery, but again, at £3.99.. (shrug). You also never know when something may need it in the future.
     
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  24. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    If it's "not for profit" then it doesn't breach ip copyright, this system of letting the "free modding community" pick up the 'real company' slack has been a thing in simulation games for many years and I don't see it changing either.

    Your example quoted AP, they charge for their work, that's why they got served a C&D.
     
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  25. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not sure that's accurate, not bothering to argue
     
  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Usually it's that people don't like downloading from third party websites, or those third parties leave the scene and scenarios get orphaned, or even people have pay or subware sites, they abandon the support of them but keep charging (had all three happen in the past)
     
  27. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I've been modding ETS2 for 7yrs, UKTS (UK Truck Simulator) prior to that, 18 Wheels of Steel Prior to that, also Farming Sim for 9 yrs so yeah it's a subject that has come up many many many times over the years and yes it is perfectly legal and widely accepted.
     
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  28. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Exactly the reason why I bought both and I agree the scenery is... well... adequate at best, though I did notice quite a few custom assets that may get used in my own projects.
     
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  29. Mich

    Mich Active Member

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    Technically any breach of IP free or not still infringes on copyright, theoretically a rail company could be super strict and go after these freeware websites if they wish. However IP holders can choose how strict they are in enforcing it, and at least in the case of the freeware sim communities they luckily don't care.
     
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  30. Odd1ne

    Odd1ne Member

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    You are right I removed earlier this year this came up with football manager how easy that is to mod and add the unlicensed logos man utd was on about suing them.
     
  31. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    The BIG clause and one that not even big bad rail companies can take on is that if it's for personal use (and sharing for free is part of and comes under personal usage, look it up) then there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it, because it's perfectly lawful to do so.

    If however you made a TfL logo'd train covered it in blood splatters and called it baby killer or something equally disturbing then TfL could pursue you for defamation of character and using their ip in a way to cause harm or do damage to their brand and or image.

    But painting a truck up in Eddie Stobart livery or a train in Virgin livery and using it and distributing it freely in the way it was intended to be used is... not... illegal.
     
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  32. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Unless you have the company's permission to use their IP in such a way, it is illegal. Most companies, however, won't bother suing you because you're not making money off it so there's little to no point.
     
  33. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don't know how much clearer I can make this point, of course you are welcome to believe whatever you choose, I have danced this dance repeatedly for nigh on a decade and really don't care enough any more whether people believe me or not.

    Just enjoy your sim or sims as you choose to enjoy them with fake or real world liveries it matters not, just enjoy them.
     
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  34. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    If you use the reskin for your own purposes then that's perfectly fine. As soon as you start to distribute it (at least in the UK) - regardless of if you're charging for it, you're breaking copyright law. As I said, most companies won't bother.
     
  35. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
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  36. USRailFan

    USRailFan Member

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    I thought the Cornish Main Line on Steam only used the former default FGW HSTs?
     
  37. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you should ask somebody "Why Retire The Cornish Main Line Route From Steam"
     
  38. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    For clarity - any recreation of a company brand (or in this case livery) is an infringement of copyright. Doing so within the confines of your own game only is rarely detected, but is still an infringement of copyright. Anything that is shared, whether paid or not, is more likely to incur either litigation or a cease and desist from the copyright holder.

    Just because you're sharing something for free doesn't mean it's not violating copyright.
     
  39. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    It is relatively easy to gain permissions from some companies though.

    If in doubt, leave it out.

    Oh, and good to have you back Sam, hope your holiday was ace.
     
  40. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    It definitely is. Some are more than happy for us to include them providing we protect the use of their branding (ie only use it in the way they do - this is pretty normal). Others are a straightforward "NO."
     
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  41. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Source?
     
  42. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Copyright, Design and Patents Act 1988.

    As a professional photographer I am intimately familiar with it. He's right. It is copyright infringement whether you charge for it, or pay for it, or not. Being free does not exempt you from copyright infringement.
     
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  43. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Hmm interesting you use that as your source DTG PookyTaganist..
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/2361/regulation/3/made
     
  44. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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  45. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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  46. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I'm struggling to find the exact reference I need, I was looking but as you can imagine legal documents are a minefield of words for the sake of words, there is (somewhere) valid documentation that backs up my point clearly and concisely, I've referenced it before but buggered if I can find it right now, tbh I wasn't expecting (or wanting) to ever have this argument again so I didn't keep mine (and others) reference material or links.
    Unfortunately the big debate that settled this before was on a Farm Sim forum that is now no longer around, I know we also did this dance on the Official SCS ETS2 forum too but that's a lot of trolling through topics and posts to again find the relevant stuff, and some of that may even be inaccessible to me now as I'm no longer a forum moderator there.

    It's beer o'clock now so I doubt I'll give it any more time tonight, you're all more than welcome to conclude that you are all right and I'm mistaken and move on, like I mentioned in an earlier post I really don't care enough any more tbh, sorry.
     
  47. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Reef, if you can find that documentation, I'd happily buy you a few beers for sharing it. Very useful indeed.
     
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  48. Stones89

    Stones89 New Member

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    Sorry for what will probably be a stupid question, but what will happen to the route on Just Trains? I have been considering buying "Western Mainlines: The Complete Collection" on there for a while now, but don't know if I can justify the price at the moment.

    Are "Train Simulator: Cornish Main Line: Plymouth – Penzance Route Add-On" (Steam) and "
    Western Mainlines Cornish Main Line Extension"(Just Trains) two different products? Or can I buy the Steam one before it goes, and get the rest of the lines in from the "Western Mainlines: The Complete Collection" (Just Trains) at a later date, and have all the routes seamlessly connected?

    Thanks
     
  49. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I think that the only way to get the whole, seamless thing is to buy the entire route... I think.
     
  50. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Go ask JustTrains on their support stream. The DTG license may be running out but not the JT one
     

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