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Current Simulation In Electric Locos

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by SiepeAssassina, Apr 26, 2019.

  1. SiepeAssassina

    SiepeAssassina New Member

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    I don't know if this is an issue and I'm wrong but something is off with the ammeters in most of the german locos.

    Now, current is strictly proportional to the torque of any electrical motor (at any speed) so by logic the current AT ANY SPEED should always follow the tractive effort displayed on the accelerometer, plus or minus some losses in the conversion.
    For example, when you apply throttle the current should peak immediately to his max value for that applied torque and then, as speed builds up, go down.

    Instead what happens in the sim, the current slowly builds up as speed does (which is ridiculous as at zero speed the ammeter reports zero current, meaning no acceleration!), and then at some point decreases. Not only that but current and speed seem somehow linked.

    This is most evident in the new BR155, as speed increases the same amount of torque (20 kN/FN) translates in more and more current! But that makes no sense (at least in my head).

    What do you think? Am I completely bonkers?
     
  2. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Nope, indeed the opposite has been true in classes 86 and 87 in TSx for ages
     
  3. Matto140

    Matto140 Active Member

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    This behavior is correct becauce it represent the HV side of traction transformer, and ampermeter show the current intake from trolley. At the start current on HV side is low, but big on LV side where traction motors are.
    As the speed grows even the current on HV side grows becauce power is rising, you incement the notchs. If you don't notch up power is fixed and HV current is fixed too, but speed is rising and force go down.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
  4. mokady

    mokady New Member

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    And what about little display above GSM-R? I think it is called in TSW manual "Fault Lamp Indicator Panel". It doesnt work now (doesnt show anything). Also I read in TS2019 manual that this loco has protection against too high current (above 450 Amps it should open cirut braker).
     
  5. SiepeAssassina

    SiepeAssassina New Member

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    I though the ammeter was on the LV side...
    Let me see if I understood it:
    when you start the loco the tap changer fixes a certain torque, on the LV side the current is quite high (ideally infinite since the Vdrop on the motors is zero) but on the HV side is zero or very close to zero due to the conservation of power.

    Now the loco starts moving.
    In this first phase the torque remains almost constant so the current on the LV side is fixed but the Vdrop across the motors is rising, and with it the power. The HV ammeter rises with the power (and the Vdrop).

    The train is reaching a certain speed "Vx" where the torque starts going down. The current on the motors is becoming smaller and smaller and this is when we see the HV ammeter peak and then reach again a low value.

    This begs the question: what does the tap changer do? Is it a speed control? A torque control? A power handle?

    It's sad really, the TSx model had all of these features and here are missing... I hope they will bring those back
     
  6. Matto140

    Matto140 Active Member

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    You understantd it almost right!
    Tap changer act as voltage(max. power) handle, you can't set constant torque (LV current) only Vdrop per notch.
    To keep the same level of torque you need to increase Vdrop (max. power) to keep acceleration in some area, otherwise it drop down and you reach maximal speed on selected notch. Same with max. Vdrop (full power), where you reach maximal speed. (on constant track gradient)
     
  7. SiepeAssassina

    SiepeAssassina New Member

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    That makes a lot of sense. Thanks.
    Does that apply to the other german locos aswell? I.e. the ammeter is on the High side.
     
  8. Matto140

    Matto140 Active Member

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    Ampermeter is always on top line (Pantograph - Main Circuit Breaker - Ampermeter), so on AC traction it means HV side.
    Regulation principle also work for BR143.
    185.2, 146, 182 are modern locos and have torque control system (which work on same principle but Vdrop rise continuously not in notch) and act a you wrote above - constant torque/constant power
     
  9. SiepeAssassina

    SiepeAssassina New Member

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    Thank you again for your time!
     
  10. mokady

    mokady New Member

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    Why nobody is talking about Fault Lamp Indicator Panel which doesnt work??? It is shows wheel slip and many other useful information. Also why this loco doesnt have properly working over current safety that opens circut braker????
     
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  11. LT586

    LT586 Active Member

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    Are we closer to cab shake and movement while operating at speed?
    Im in no rush for features but there's a lot of features that would make a train environment missing
     
  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Put this in the suggestions section rather than buried as haven't seen it before.
     
  13. LT586

    LT586 Active Member

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    No use my man, do they even check the community suggestions? There's been some really extensive and detailed suggestions that may take time but its the same cartwheel at the moment
     
  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe this is the case. Watch last night's twitch stream and Matt talks on some points that have been raised here such as optimisation, features and so on
    They've introduced road traffic, more services, service layering, random AI consists, they've spoken at length on what's happening with the dev tools (even if I disagree with them on some of it) etc etc

    So I do think they're listening, even if they cannot speak about what they're doing because people then become impatient and start banging on about what they're asking for but not getting yet.

    But I mean it, go watch the stream. Some good info, good upcoming news etc
     
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  15. LT586

    LT586 Active Member

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    I hear you, i'll watch when I have time
     
  16. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    They did do some testing of head bob, but it doesn’t look right yet.
     
  17. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    Do tell :)

    Matt.
     
  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    OK... and this is going on a lot of hearsay and speculation...
    From what I've gathered from your comments and others in streams and on here... To me it seems like you already have a lot of capability to create routes, locos, DMU, probably EMU, wagons and scenarios, service layers and so on.... These form the basis of a lot of what people are asking for in the editor, but you seem to be (note huge SEEM TO) trying to perfect everything rather than letting the builder out there and letting people make similar errors you already made, or even publishing part of the builder along with a huge "Here's where we already messed up, you CAN do this, but it buggers x,y,z up"

    Even a basic editor would quell the noise that we have in the background, and if people can feed back into the system, maybe even improving on your own stock which you can then incorporate in game then people would see their investment, see the acknowledgement and feel that things were moving forward
    You've made great strides in the last six months on a lot of fronts, but DTG can't do everything and there are a great number of people out there who CAN do these things, even if they have to collaborate to get it done

    Another option might be to release the editor as components that layer up within itself you could already have people making scenarios or new layers, others may want to create consists and test them, others may want to create and layout routes. Not everyone will want the ability to do everything of everything... Certainly I will never reskin a model or create a route.

    I do like tinkering with scenarios though...

    Might not be possible but it's an option for those who say that driving the same old drives gets tedious...

    And don't get me wrong, I know the issues having an editor out there can cause. I'm currently going through the DPSimulation scenario packs editting scenarios because of things like the VTEC reskins missing from the AP packs... It can cause nightmares, but something is always going to be better than bugger all.
     
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  19. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Quite recently DTG have been very optimistic and have a lot on their ‘wish list/do to list’, however I do think that there are certain areas where things are best left to the community or third party.

    Scenarios and re-skins are one thing the community shines at, just look at how popular the Steam Workshop is as well as a various range of sites containing the re-skins for TS1.

    I’m a bit disappointed with the lack of detailed reports about the editor, apart from “Progress is going well, the closed beta team are continuing to work on it”. That doesn’t really tell us much nor indicates how far or close we are to release.

    I’m not forcing or asking them to hurry up with the editor, just a bit more information about it, such as a Studio Update or something, would be nice. Perhaps some ‘new’ discoveries they found/things which weren’t previously possible they could talk about.
     
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  20. Matto140

    Matto140 Active Member

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    First crucial milestone about editor tool is implementation of Steam Workshop to TSW. That way players can start to gain some fruits from closed beta editior, and DTG/3-party gets many beta testers feedback.
     
  21. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    ARuscoe
    Not trying to perfect it for the first release at all - we're putting it out as an open beta and there will probably be a big bunch of caveats and "let us know how you get on" and "try these things, see if things break" comments. We already know from using it ourselves that the editor is fully functional, there are probably going to be some areas that people find issues when handling cooked content but hopefully that's been minimised. The point of the open beta will be to explore all that and iron it out, much quicker with everyones help.

    What's crucial at the moment is how we deploy it, how it accesses your DLC content, how it can be updated, how it can handle DLC being updated or new bits of DLC appearing etc, all kinds of tedious but crucial stuff. This also includes good reproducible build procedures and upload procedures to the Epic servers and many other exciting things.

    We are also looking at the initial base set of documentation to make sure there's enough there to get you started even if it isn't 100% complete (by *any* means) - the nature of unreal is that you really need some guidance about what things do what and where they are, e.g. there is no "create formation" button, you need to know to make a "data asset" of type "train formation" and then how to use it.

    There's lots to do, but it's largely witchcraft unless you're an engineer.

    Splitting the editor up is not possible, it's an all or nothing thing, unreal is one big toolset. That's just how it works, but hey, good news is it's all there anyway, so no need to split anything up.

    I appreciate everyone is super excited about the editor coming, just need you to hang on a bit longer.

    In terms of updates - i'm just not sure what to actually say at the moment that isn't just more of the "yes it is still coming". I can't give you an indication of when it'll be available yet - the minute that's possible i'm pretty sure there'll be lots of exciting news about it :)

    Once we get to a launch window for the editor, it'll make much more sense to ramp up videos and streams of the editor to support the training / documentation side of things as well.

    Matt.
     
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  22. PlatChap

    PlatChap Active Member

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    I don't want to get ahead of myself but it sounds like you guys are really gearing up for an official release here Matt. Thanks for the info! I'm trying not to get too excited but I can't help it!
     
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  23. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    TrainSim-Matt I must say your last post probably gave us more info about the editor than all the Studio Updates so far this year! :) Perhaps it's my inner geek but I like hearing about these technical issues. Whilst I doubt that I'll ever use the editor for more than creating scenarios I'm still interested in hearing about what's involved on the route creation side including signalling, graphics and performance considerations.
     

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