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Deadline To Fix The 155 And The Class 47

Discussion in 'Technical Reports' started by synthetic.angel, Apr 5, 2020.

  1. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    The deadline to fix the DB BR 155 on RSN and the Class 47 on NTP/WSR is now being announced, and the deadline is Sunday 31st May 2020.

    If patches are not made avalaible on PS4 to fix the DB BR 155 on RSN, and on PS4 and XBox (and arguably, the PC) to fix the Class 47 on NTP and WSR, by the deadline, then this matter will be taken further (along with an extensive set of more general matters), and representations will be made to the following entities:

    - Railsimulator.com
    - Epic Games
    - Sony Europe
    - Microsoft Corporation
    - Medway Trading Standards
    - British Film Institute and HMRC

    The above list is not exhaustive. Further contacts could be made with Deutsche Bahn and the Department For Transport.(UK), amongst others. Pro-active formal action will take place from Monday 1st June 2020, if the patches are not made available by the deadline.

    This is not a poll. I will be making arrangements for formal action to take place, regardless of any views expressed in this thread, if DTG does not provide the required reasonable remedies by the deadline. I am very disappointed that we have now reached this very low point in supplier-customer relations, but, it was perhaps inevitable, given DTG's track record.

    Comments are welcome - whatever their nature, and in whatever format you feel represents your point of view and personality.

    NB: If DTG is in any doubt about the extent of the faults with the DB BR 155 and Class 47, or if they genuinely need advice on appropriate potential fixes, then I would be happy to help provide more information, as soon as they ask for it.
     
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  2. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Good luck, sounds a bit over the top if I have to be honest.
     
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  3. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I bought the 155 in November and it's only been used a couple of times because I was waiting for a fix. At this point, I'd be happy with a refund.
     
  4. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I hope this works and they do fix them. As over the top this may seem to others, considerable amounts of customer cash has been taken by DTG for this broken content and seemingly no real attempt has been made to fix the content, AND they continue to sell them knowing they are broken. Someone has to something about it.
     
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  5. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yeah - I think that is always a reasonable solution - and I will eventually test this as an option. Funnily enough, I was just about to leave all of these console issues alone, as I am defecting to PC and TS2020... and I am quite busy as Automobilista 2 (sort of PC 2.5)*** is out on Early Access..., but then I saw this little gem in the Diesel Duty thread (but apparently lifted from Discord):

    -------------------------------------
    DominusEdwardius said:

    As far as I'm aware its because PS4 can't use any EQ stuff, which is slightly problematic as frequencies can run away. It also means that the cab of the 155 on PS4 is much louder than on xbox and PS4 doubly not helping. Then PS4 seems to cut out the audio entirely if something gets too high whereas the other two don't. The 155 only being effected is probably just bad luck really, theres probably some bad luck with a fan or something at a particular frequency that runs away.

    -------------------------------------


    And that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Doubly annoying because I had really really liked this guy, and I thought he had been given a hard time over the Class 47. But it turns out that the process is "If it is broken on console, then that's just bad luck.....". I mean - he uses this "bad luck" phrase twice... which gives it added emphasis in my book. It's an eye-opener (and a bit of relief to simply understand how they think about console players), but it is obviously completely unacceptable - oh... and a bit illegal.

    It is absolutely disgusting, actually. But it explains why he won't fix the Class 47 - he just regards the console players that pay for his broken stuff ...... as just being unlucky.

    Anyway - this will be a no-brainer for Sony, Microsoft and Epic to take action. I mean - if that's what DTG want to happen... they will not tolerate this nonsense, and the impact on their reputation. And then I'll follow-up with consumer regulation enforcement with a double-strike on fitness for purpose and mis-marketing, and once that is bagged, I will flag it up to the tax authorities, via BFI, should DTG be claiming tax breaks and breaking the rules by breaching UK law. Easy enough to do this, when you know what you doing - and, as it happens, I know what to do, and in what order.

    Or DTG could just fix the DB BR 155 and the Class 47. Whatever is easiest for them, is fine by me.

    --------------------
    PS***:
    If you drop me an IM about FFB on PC2, then I will give you some tips. PC2 should work superbly well with the G29.


     
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  6. MarkusLiberty

    MarkusLiberty Active Member

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    So you're going to spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars taking a video game publisher to court over a bug in their game?

    Absolute laughable mate
     
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  7. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Nope. I don't intend to spend any more than $10. I might be able to do it for under $5, depending on whether I need to send two documents by recorded mail, or three.

    I do not intend to take anyone to Court. Others might do this, but I don't intend to. Apart from anything else, the maximum damages that I could conveivably claim for myself in a Civil case would be less than $20. I am not looking to go down a Civil route.
     
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  8. Mikey_9835

    Mikey_9835 Well-Known Member

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    Oh for gods sake how can one person be so obsessed with such a trivial matter to seek legal action is beyond me. Who made you an ambassador?

    Do you seriously believe this will change anything? Do you think Sony is going to knock on DTG's door demanding a fix for something so petty? Bugs exist, and contrary to popular belief not every one can be fixed especially if it's platform specific.

    If you want to be helpful, use useful data to back up your claims like video evidence. You have posted hundreds of messages on these forums complaining about this issue, it is unnecessary. 1 ticket with video evidence is enough, and spamming "fix the 155" will not get the issue fixed any faster.

    Enough is Enough.
     
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  9. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    You don't have to read
     
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  10. Betjoin

    Betjoin Well-Known Member

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    Way to go to ruin it for everyone...
     
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  11. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I don't pretend to be an ambassador - as I have said, I am taking this process forward at my own behest, regardless of anyone else's views. Popular, or not. As you said - Enough is Enough.

    By the end of the process we will know whether or not DTG will be allowed to carry on doing what they are doing, or whether they need to do more to comply with the agreements that they have made with Epic, Microsoft and Sony, and whether they need to do more in order to comply with the law in the UK.

    This isn't about individual bugs. It's about a system. And in any case the DB BR 155 "bug" completely renders that DLC, as an individual product as advertised, as unfit for purpose.

    DTG are free to choose whichever approach they want to take. They could simply fix the DB BR 155 and Class 47 in less than two hours. Or they can wait and see if "....they will be lucky". I do not know what the outcome will be, after 1st June 2020, if DTG choose to not fix the two DLCs. We will know by the end of 2020, because the full process will take about six months.

    This has been tried many times by many people, to no effect. I think it has now become necessary to take action, to clarify the position.

    And if the position becomes clear, that it is perfectly okay for DTG to keep rolling out defective software, with heavily misleading marketing, with no intention to ever fix it - then at least everyone will know that is the real situation, and that nothing can be done about it - and then nobody will ever need to complain about anything ever again - which will presumably make a lot of people's lives much happier, and it will save a considerable amount of energy and angst, for evermore.

    There is a general belief held by many service providers that they are in a far more powerful position than the average consumer, and that the average consumer can do (or will do) absolutely nothing about continued abject failings by the service provider to do the right thing. This belief is generally correct - most people are ill-informed about the commercial world and the legal framework. Most people.

    I am prepared to put in the resources to test what the outcome will be. And frankly, if DTG had decided to test the DB BR 155 and the Class 47 on the platforms that they chose to sell them on, then there wouldn't be a problem, at all.
     
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  12. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I thought it might help if I gave you a developed answer to this question of yours, for illustrative purposes, for any interested readers.

    Sony do not need to knock on doors. DTG will have signed an agreement with SIE including various terms and conditions that apply to software developers that want to maintain a Right To Develop for PlayStation, and Section 6 of that agreement (Section 5 for SCEA in the US) includes provisions for quality control and testing.

    It is likely that Sony's QA team at SIE gave DTG a reasonably clean bill of health to be trusted to do their own QA and testing after they managed to get the GWE route functional. However - SIE can still intervene at any point. If SIE are made aware of critical "Must Fix" bugs, then SIE can demand that DTG fix them immediately, or DTG's product(s) will just be removed from PlayStation Store.

    Also - the DB BR 155 bug isn't just a "Must Fix" bug. It is a permanently persistent fitness for purpose bug that is reproducible on PS4 at a rate of 100.000%, has always been there, and is discoverable within the first 300 seconds of testing. The presence of such a bug really makes it look like there might be a complete QA system failure in DTG's testing process for PS4. And this is just the sort of thing that would pique the interest of the QA guys at SIE. Apparently. So, I have been led to understand. Apparently, they take this sort of thing really seriously.

    The main concern won't be the sound issues with the DB BR 155, or the Class 47's power curve - the main concern will be the apparent complete absence of a QA system employed by DTG. If I had to guess what has actually happened at DTG, my guess would be that the PS4 DevKits have expired, or that DTG changed their IP in an office move and haven't bothered to re-register their DevKits (which are IP locked), and so have just done absolutely no testing for PS4 in recent times - at all. That's just a guess.

    And, frankly, if you still don't believe anything that I have written above - then you can sense-check this yourself, from your own experience (if you have a PS4). Is PlayStation Store riddled with a whole load of broken games with broken DLC? No - no it isn't. Have you wondered why that might be the case...? And the answer is that there is some minimum standard of quality that must be met, or broken titles get disappeared, if they are not promptly fixed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
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  13. Mikey_9835

    Mikey_9835 Well-Known Member

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    Kinda hard not to when it's almost impossible to avoid the spam.
     
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  14. Bacon_BMW

    Bacon_BMW Active Member

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    Why are we making an issue of this.
    Video games have bugs, that usually don't require a member of the community to take extensive action (which probably won't do much, if anything) to be resolved.
    I seriously think you should reconsider what you're doing and how incompetent you're making yourself look before following up on this.
    Also, with things that have been going on lately, this "deadline" is probably not achievable.
     
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  15. Oo7 BELL 7oO

    Oo7 BELL 7oO Active Member

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    I agree that the issues raised need to be adressed (and I admire the extent you are willing to go to to fix the issues) but it depends on what you mean by formal action. It all seems to over the top but I respect that you are willing to do this for the community's sake.
     
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  16. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I'm guessing that the initial formal action wouldn't need to be some big flashy lawsuit, just a formal letter. Maybe one to Sony, saying he bought something from their otherwise-very-high-quality online store and feels like he's been sold a product which isn't fit for purpose, and another in a similar vein to trading standards. Enough to get the ball rolling, perhaps?
     
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  17. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    Without going so far in a procedure, it would suffice that:
    1 - DTG communicates that there is a problem, that they will correct it, or make a refund.
    2 - This would show respect for DTG towards its customers (even if some people think that DTG is a god)
    3 - Let DTG get involved a little more on this forum, and respond as much as they do on Discord. And don't let a few followers respond in their place.

    I think it would be for the good of all fans who want the game to be better.

    Chat DTG, chat ...
     
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  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Really? If DTG say there's a problem they get hounded as to WHY there's a problem, how people are getting compensated etc etc
    Seen it too many times on this forum. Part of the reason I don't bother to engage with most of it
     
  19. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    The silence can be worse
     
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  20. RailWorkshop

    RailWorkshop Member

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    The fat man must justify the salary he gets.
    He is fat and lazy.
    You know to whom I mean.
    DTG should be stopped from selling half finished products.
     
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  21. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    A little respect anyway.
     
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  22. PlatChap

    PlatChap Well-Known Member

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    giphy.gif
     
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  23. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Well I hope this will get them to fix these long-term problems. It seems that everything else has failed. It shouldn't have come to this.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  24. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

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    ??????????????????????????????????????????


    Anyway - I shall now do as you ask. And I shall never ever mention the DB BR 155 again - even in threads about new loco DLCs, and even in threads about new German DLCs.
    I can now happily say this - because I no longer rely on PS4.... and I am now a PC user.... ;-)

    It was Mar 22, 2020
    Then he has done 130 post
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
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  25. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    His ego is probably due another massaging!
     
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  26. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Well, it appears that our esteemed OP has disappeared from the forum. I wondered why it had gone so quiet.
     
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  27. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well I hope is okay. Maybe he is just taking a break for a few days?
     
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  28. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I hope he’s okay too but it looks like he’s been banned or suspended. His name doesn’t come up if you try to search for him in member search, or try to tag him in a post.
     
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  29. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

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    Yes I hope so. His ego went up to the roof.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
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  30. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I hope he is okay as well it looks like he may have bitten off more than he could chew this time, and DTG took the appropriate action this time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
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  31. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

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    DTG was very kind with him for a long time. It is their forum and he constantly tried to criticize them.
    Normally you can give criticism but when you write hundreds (about 300) of posts about BR 155 then something is really wrong with this person.
    Everything is not so good in TSW but the most part is good.
    Now I hope it becomes normal again here. And I hope the dovetail can write here again.
    If I was moderator for this forum I had shut him down 3 months ago.
     
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  32. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think he did get away with a lot, some other companies forums and he would have been banned a lot quicker so you can't say DTG don't allow criticism. I notice a few other more antagonistic posters haven't been seen for a while.

    I will say it would be good it DTG did address some of these issues or at least told us they were looking into them as it might stop similar situations from unfolding, although I think the allegations that were being made about them were extremely over the top.
     
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  33. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    It's only been a few days since Syn was here, I reckon there maybe be a return. We shall see. Probably has a new keyboard on order and is waiting for it to be delivered - since the old one must surely be worn out. ;)
     
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  34. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

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    Ha Ha Ha very funny and true
     
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  35. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Just as I unmuted Syn! :D

    Seriously, I have absolutely no clue what he's thinking. All games have bugs and it is entirely the developer's choice to fix them or not (DTG, if you're reading this, that isn't an excuse you can use). If Sony, Microsoft and Epic Games (is TSW even on the Epic Store?) removed broken content, Need For Speed Rivals would have been removed years ago.

    Syn, don't bother. Don't even start to bother. Don't start to think about bothering. It's honestly not worth it. There are two outcomes from you taking Dovetail to court:
    1. You lose massive amounts of money over a video game (well, playing Train Sim, we've all done this one already :D)
    2. In the massively unlikely event you are successful - and I'm willing to bet my hair that you won't be - DTG will have most or all of the stuff on the stores removed, ruining it for people who actually were enjoying TSW (even the BR155 and Class 47!).
     
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  36. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I don't think SA was going to take DTG to court directly and it was also mentioned it might cost a tenner.

    I see the "all games have bugs" claim mentioned a lot on here but having been a casual console gamer for 30 odd years that's not my experience. What bugs I have seen have not been as serious, obvious and long-term as the ones I've experienced in TSW.

    Only yesterday I thought I'd give NTP another whirl. Class 40 (not wasting my time with a faulty 47), 10:48 Manchester to Leeds. All running well. On time, no speeding. Tripped by a surprise red at the entrance to Standedge. No warning. My guess: catching a 101 that was probably at Marsden. Not the first time. The signals simply do not work properly and despite numerous threads about it on here, nothing has been done and I don't think anything will be....ever. Just like the 155 and 47.

    So I wish SA good luck with his endeavour.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
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  37. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

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    Factor41 also seems to be gone now. Cant find him when searching him.
    He and SA was registered just a day apart..........
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
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  38. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

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    this also wants fixing on MSB as it also loses audio going through the tunnel. i tried it yesterday to confirm it in the driver journey
     
  39. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    Ah that old one. A little bit of a conspiracy theory me thinks. :)

    Factor41 - where's your alter ego gone? :D ;)
     
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  40. Tomas9970

    Tomas9970 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know but these two cases are very different. You can access the Synthetic angel's profile and see all of his activity with last one being on Monday. Factor41 profile was deleted so you can't read through it and all of his posts appear to be deleted (searching for his posts throws an error). This thread was probably preserved entirely as a final reason for a ban. I haven't tried to search for Factor41's posts manualy but I don't thing I would find any.

    By deleted I mean not visible to other users but archived in case of a dispute.

    edit: Factor41's posts are not gone you just can't search for them. This is quite weird because each of these two profiles exists only in some situations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  41. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Seems odd. Factor was always quite helpful on here to be fair
     
  42. Canon772

    Canon772 Active Member

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    There are posts from Factor 41 in this very thread!
     
  43. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I'm still dipping in occasionally. Just losing interest in TSW and this month's PS Plus games are good (and work properly) so spending some time on those. I've given up hope of the 155 ever being fixed - I've rated it as low as possible at every opportunity in the hope it will dissuade anyone else from wasting their hard-earned on it, because DTG clearly have no intention of ever fixing it.
     
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  44. JohnnyK98

    JohnnyK98 Well-Known Member

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    I can't believe I read through this entire thread at 8:00 AM on a Sunday morning.

    I'm not aware of the DB BR 155 bug, does it only affect the PS4?
    And the Class 47 feels underpowered, is this the major concern? I quite like the Class 47, strolling at my leisurely West Somerset pace. :')
     
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  45. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    On another long gone trainsim forum there were two profiles I swear were from the same person, exactly same writing styles, they even used to contradict each other sometimes! So it isn't so far fetched but I am sure isn't the case with SA and Factor41.
     
  46. Tomas9970

    Tomas9970 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that was quite stupid from me. I thought that this thread was preserved entirely for some reason.

    Him replying solves one mystery. Now the only question is why some profiles throw an error when someone tries to view them.
     
  47. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    It's absolutely fine strolling along the West Somerset. It's a different story on the Trans Pennine route with a heavy oil train in tow.
     
  48. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Privacy settings. You can choose whether people can see your profile. By default, members can see but guests/offline cannot. But you can change it so that no one can see it like I have done or you can do the opposite extreme where anyone including guests and offline people can see it
     
  49. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    No, purely coincidental that we registered around the same time. Presumably it was during a TSW sale when a lot of PS4 users experienced it for the first time and joined the forum to ask why things weren't working correctly, most of whom gave up quite quickly. I think we both have a similar outlook and expectation when it comes to software - he's just a little more persistent! His profile still seems to be active though, so probably just spending more time in TS2020 now.
     
  50. Tomas9970

    Tomas9970 Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah. The most basic thing. It seems to also apply to finding content based on user who posted it. In other words, you can't search for content posted by someone who has his profile set to private.
     

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