Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by 749006, Jun 10, 2020.
I believe he was referring to the South China HS route for TS1 that is 570km
For train simulator read the whole thread and you'll see what I mean. Did I say TSW.......NO!!!!
Kinda racist Dinosbasci.
Geez, ok, I get it. I didn't read the thread peooerly. No need to get so upset.
[removed by Protagonist - unhelpful spam]
Lol is this dude okay?
I appreciate the analogy you're trying to draw (in terms of early development days for TSW), but no, by TS2013 was in comparison far more advanced in its respective development progress. By that stage TS1 had already incorporated a full world editor for several years. Stand-a-lone scenario and route editing tools went back even further than that.By that stage there was already tons of shared content (player made scenarios, loco models & reskins, routes, route upgrades, unofficial game fixes for all tthe official bugs etc..) Players from almost the word go had been able to use locos & rolling stock from their collection in any route they owned, whatever combination their heart desired so long as loco power source compatible.
Personally I think it's fair to argue that in many ways TS1 is considerably more advanced than TSW (as it currently stands). The great shame is many players that rely solely on content purchasable via Steam, & have no true idea of just how (very) capable the TS1 environment can be when fully modded. Yes, no doubt about it, TSW has very pretty graphics - & at its best looks distinctly 'better' than TS1, but in every other regard TS1 perhaps (so far) be considered superior.
And it's not simply down to the huge amount and variation in content (routes, locos, rolling stock, scenery objects etc.) available in the TS20xx series that has evolved over the years. Together with the vast amount of 3rd party payware content (sold outwith Steam) plus freeware community player content, which combined is mind-blowing. Many hundreds of routes, thousands of locos/coaches/wagons representing scores of different countries around the World.
Despite its graphical good looks, TSW is not always user friendly (the 2D map is dire compared to TS1, and many players might feel the HUD is a poorer relative also), and audio wise it's very weak. 3rd party sounds for TS1 can be amazingly realistic, and well balanced whether in cab, outside, near or afar from the locos. The same can not be said of TSW, I can often barely hear any noise at all in some of the cabs, or no discernable difference between interior/exterior sounds. That's if one is fortunate enough the sounds work at all! Better produced TS1 routes/scenarios already have station & loco passenger announcements. If you haven't already it's well worth having a play with the latest release of the Virtual District Line (a community project). It will be interesting to compare & contrast with the new Tube route included with TSW2.
TSW is supposed to be an interactive World, adding to the realism & immersion experience of the player. For the most part though, it's like a ghost 'town'. Really sterile. Next to no AI traffic, and the traffic that does exist for the most part having no variety whatsover. Roads & skies almost completely empty, very little in the way of people, animals, construction traffic, moving industrial scenery etc.. TS1 has all of this, even if the graphics are somewhat crude (as dictated by the older game engine).
TS20xx long time full support for all manner of external controller devices including RailDriver & TrackIR. Plus ability (albeit not formally supported) to utilise all sorts of joysticks, throttles, buttons, gauges etc..It's 'stunning', not in a good way, that almost 4 years on TSW still has no support (and looks like TSW2020 never will now) for at least RailDriver & TrackIR. Yes it took a little while for these to come to TS1 but at that time these were not main-stream gaming devices, whilst I'd suggest in today's world support for such devices would by many players be considered a basic feature expected, rather an optional would be nice to have.
As for physics I'm not going to go there, or will be here all day. Suffice to say TS1 has had cab sway, ability to derail, working wheel-slip & sanders, again from pretty much the word go. And whilst there's always been some inconsistency from loco model to model, when the stock is correctly programmed best utilising the graphics engine, then the best loco models seem very realistic indeed - when it comes to acceleration, tractive effort, braking - I personally don't feel the same in TSW, but then I do realise it's subjective, and others will feel differently (though whether they have actually truly experienced using the best content in TS1, to make such a valid comparison I don't know). And 4 years on not a single Steam loco in the new game, what can I say. TS20xx has hundreds (and did very early on in the life of the Railworks game series) with many of the 3rd party efforts incredibly detailed & realistic in their modelling (again to the best that is possible, given the constraints of the now very old game engine).
I'm not so sure about that. They've likely lost a good proportion of their existing potential customer base, long-term players that feel like they've been taken for a ride the last few years. I've read your many posts over the last couple of years, and it sounds like you were not around (involved in the TS scene) back in 2015 when the whole idea of TS2 was first mooted by DTG. In fairness to DTG there was a lot of two way discussion with the community, with the developer asking for the community's thoughts/ideas [the big mistake seems to be they now seem to have gone off at a complete to tangent to what was discussed, & what the player base thought was going to happen. Much as was the case for FSW].This was care of the official TS Steam forum which was at that time at its peak in terms of popularity and player engagement. These DTG own forum boards didn't even exist at that time. At that time there was no mention of consoles whatsover (that complete surprise only came years). 5 years ago, DTG were strongly touting TS2 as the next generation PC train 'simulator', 'taking train simulation to the next level'. Instead we have what appears the evolution of a train arcade game, moving further & further away from a true simulator.
The recent Q & A session care of our 'Protagonist' (& I must say I thought he did a very good job, & I greatly appreciated the honest direct approach - as disappointing as it might have been to learn of the intended direction of travel of the 'game') very much confirmed this. TS1 is such a great success, in a large part because of the very strong community involvement over tye years. In comprison with TSW1/TSW2 the community element has effectively been chopped out. For many the editing (creation of scenarios, routes, modding & customising the game as they need/want for their own game play experience) is a hugely important part of the sim experience. A significant part of the player base, spend far more time creating content than they do driving trains. And they very much enjoy the editing, it's what attracts them to playing the train sim. Yet TSW isn't go to allow folk to do this. Do you really think being able to change the livery of the loco to some fancy pink, and etch a few pre deigned symbols onto the loco (and not be able to share such 'creations' for good measure) is really going to cut it for so such users? No I don't either.
Perhaps better for everyone to accept, TSW is being geared up (for the most part) for the younger audience and/or for casual train fans. Not as a simulator aiming to provide the most realsitic driving and real life modelling experience. That's fine, at least we now know. Though this sits very uncomfortably with what the PC Train Sim community were lead to believe the new train sim was headed. I therefore strongly suspect those that lean towards simultion proper will still stick with TS1, which has evolved into a true classic game-simulator for good reason. There's clearly still potential large demand for further hight quality content for TS20xx - which is just limited by the current old game engine, which unfortunately constrains how the very fine collection of content & modelling can be utilised. Very much hopiing DTG can find a way to further develop the core engine to continue getting more life out of the game. I'm another that would happily pay £30+ for a significant core only update without any new content, that would guarantee the future of TS20xx. I believe DTG are right here, TS20xx and TSW do have the potential to sit comfortably side by side serving different playing niches. Both programs offer a different user experience. It's becoming increasingly clear there is no way TSW2 as it is evolving can provide what is wanted by all users as a single package. Try and please everyone, and you're likely going to end up pleasing no-one!
In principle I very much agree. But the second part of your statement pretty much nails the problem, I can't see anyone agreeing. Whilst I vey much enjoy full editing (and potential to share created content), and I love the complexity of complcated cold start-ups etc when driving (the more realistic the driving experience the better for me) that clearly doesn't appeal to many TSW users. In fact I regularly see such statements on the forums, that players have no interest whatosver in expert controls or realistic driving safety features or signalling systems (they just want to up and go - ideally managed by two trigger buttons on their Xbox controller, one for 'accelerator' and one for 'brake). Plus the desire to spend hours wandering around on foot seeking collectablles, rather than driving trains. And no interest whatsover in creating scenarios or building routes.
The two extreme ends of the player base and their respective gaming desires present quite a conundrum for DTG. Something has to give, & if they're honest (and Thursdays Q & A gave some indication of the way they're really thinking), IMHO it appears they're strongly leaning towards the latter audience when it comes to TSW/TSW2. As such, I for one am no longer interested in coming along for the ride. I will stick with TS1 which I love dearly, and am very grateful for DTG providing us with this wonderufl classic game-simulator. I truly hope they can contine to make both TS1/TS2 series a success in their own rights, thus keeping everyone happy. And that includes DTG, they obviously need to find a balanced development model, that keeps them growing/thriving as a company. Finger's tightly crossed long-term they manage to strike such a balance, and things come good for all involved. I wish them will with this journey, I do though vey much hope they can continue to be more transparent about their intentions when it comes to the development process.
I totally agree. A very well put together post!
(Just didn't want to quote it all tho )
Thank you. I can't possibly imagine why you didn't want to quote it all! lol
Aaah - okay. So, TSW is at an even earlier stage in development.... Wowsers. So the comparison is early Railworks...? Or earlier...?
Agree on the map, obviously. TS1 can look very good - and when you are moving, and looking at AI trains, TS1 looks very much better. I also find TS1 much more immersive - because immersive includes doing things, and reacting to the environment. TSW, by contrast, is incredibly passive - relaxingly passive.....and not really a simulation. You know that you are not in a simulation when you can get up, pop into the kitchen, put the coffee on and make a fried breakfast, eat it, switch over to the TV to catch up with some news, and then go back to your freight service..... and it made absolutely no difference whether you were there or not.
Yes - sounds in TS1 (especially other traffic) can be better, all round. My point was that in TSW they are usually finished (for the locos)... unlike the new Class 89.... that said, I did find the DB BR 146 to have an unusual radius on the windscreen wiper (this is a bug, BTW) - if you get out of the cab and wander 50m down the platform, it drowns out the noise of the loco.... ;-O
Yes , you are right - I came to TS1 via first using TSW.... so by going back in time, I have seen a massive improvement (because TS1 is so much better...).... This is why I fully appreciate why so many people are disappointed with TSW, and feel slapped down again by TSW2. This is made a thousand times worse by the "iconic"marketing hype, and the promises made for TSW, and now TSW2...
I think it would be very very helpful if DTG made this very much clearer, in their own marketing material. Actually differentiate the two products, and continue to develop and support both of them.
TS1 = Train Simulator
TSW => Train Driving World
Easily solved with decent manuals and documentation, decent tools in-game (like working maps), decent tutorials, and a system for in-game skill progression. I am using the word game on purpose.... ;-)
As basic as you might think TSW is (and it is...compared to TS1, functionally), it actually has less gameplay features than TS1. It is actually harder to start with TSW from nothing (whether you are an adult or a child, and whatever you know about railway engineering)....
I hope they do this as well. I just wanted to say that I thought that the your entire post was a truly superb analysis... and I agree with virtually all of it... thank you for taking the time to get it all down. I hope that this gets seen by DTG Protagonist, as my general feeling is that you have probably summed up the feelings of a very large section of the original TS1 community - the part where each person has invested hundreds and/or thousands of pounds/dollars/euros in the project over very many years.
NB: I note that this most impressive post was your first post.... I don't want to be patronising by saying "what an impressive first post...."..... but I do want to draw attention to the fact because there are probably very many thousands of Forum lurkers that feel the same way that you do, but haven't said anything yet.
Finally - I could not find the Virtual District Line on Steam... if it was there, then I would have eagerly taken a look.....
So with TSW 2 they decide to:
- Abandon all TSW 1 DLC support
- Update UE4 to a new version but don’t take advantage of its new features
- No new skies
- No dynamic weather
- No fixes to poor shadow rendering
- No sound fixes or improvements
- No 2D map improvements
So tell me DTG, what justified making this into a ‘new’ game instead of just updating the current version and adding your ‘mimics’ which are included with TSW 2?
My thoughts? They decided to abandoned all TSW 1 content as they don’t want to have the responsibility of fixing the mountain of bugs they had with past DLC’s.
But don’t worry, just buy their new DLC’s as it’ll magically make the issues go away(!)
So why not look at a Timetable?
You can go on a number of websites and look at a Journey from Koln to Aachen Hbf
Just because the ICE3M can go at 330kmh does not mean the Railway is set at that speed
[removed by Protagonist - user suspended for one week for persistent abuse of other users and spam responses]
According to Bahn.de Köln-Aachen takes around 32-33 minutes in an ICE3 and around 55-60 minutes in a Talent 2, so it’s basically going to be a German version of GWE. Two cities with smaller stations in between.
Thank you for the kind words, ref my opening post. Yes, I'm a long-time lurker, right now not feeling particularly at home on any one modern TS forum, epecially since DTG (as good as) abandoned the official Steam forums a few years back in favour of their own boards here. I do though watch from a distance. Many of the long term players like msyelf, that have been following TS1 closely since the early Railworks day - instead being largely hidden away on the likes of UKTrainSim, the Proboards freeforum, Railworks America, Rail-Sim.de etc.. And yes many of us have built huge colllections of DLC (both Steam & 3rd party) over the years. I dread to imagine how much I've invested in TS over the last decade. I admit I'm too scared to sit down and try. But it will be in the thousands! Therefore a lot at stake, in wishing to be able to happily continue using historic content purchased for years to come.
I thought though worth breaking my silence, as it does seem DTG have now reached a very important crossroads. A real development crunch point. And of course everyone desperately hopes things will now head in the right direction. Yes, I'd like to think some of my views are fairly representative of a sizeable proportion of committed long-term supporters of TS - part of the customer base not so vocal & perhaps at times unheard. As I said, finger's crossed DTG are now able to move forward in a way that satisfactorily keeps many of their established & dedicated customer base onboard.
No you won't find the VDL route on Steam. Like a great many of the very best 3rd party content it's found outwith Steam. I'm afraid you'll miss out big-time on much of the high quality content & mods available for the game, if you only limit yourself to Steam.
You can find full details of this very fine freeware route (I believe now in its 3rd incarnation, it's been in steady development now for a few years) at the following site [Backdatedtrainsim], including all the manuals and download links.
You just need to make sure you've got all the essentrial prerequisite DLC (which are carefully listed), and then you're good to go. There are many default scenarios included in the latest release. There are some nice videos on YouTube that demo the latest version of the route.
At some future point, if I can tempt you out of the Steam only cocoon, I'll try and list some of the other very fine creations available for TS2020 elsewhere. For example you'll find some very high quality (former Steam payware) routes by G-Trax, now available as freeware on the Railworks America site. Cheers, Mike.
[removed by Protagonist - escalating an argument]
I'm train conductor/guard, and for your interest I actually did fail my drivers exam because my eyesight wasnt great shall we say, hence why I'm a conductor/guard instead.
Someone else that just quotes snippets of posts to suit their narrative!
Sorry, but I left my timetable in my anorak pocket!
I am fully aware the whole or any of the route would be set to the maximum speed of the loco. My point is that it's not a particularly long route for a high speed train and that the time operating at full speed wouldn't be much.
mike370 You seem like a great source of wisdom for people, who dive deeper into TS coming from TSW (like me), to know there is a steam "bubble" was eye-opening to me. So I guess rail-sim.de will be my place when in love with German content, or is there a better place to start off?
Dear Hyperlord. A 'quick' (well was meant to be! lol) reply, since I'm very aware this is a TSW board & I don't wish to indadvertently derail the thread with TS discussion. Feel very welcome to DM me if wishing further pointers, or by all means start a new thread on the TS2020 board.
But in answer to your Q, then yes if you love your German railways indeed the Rail-Sim.de site would be an excellent starting point for learning about & gathering further high quality German content. They host a wide selection of excellent freeware downloads: routes, route upgrades, locos, rolling stock, reskins, & a tremendous selection of high quality imaginative scenarios. The forum itself is a great place for learning about latest releases from of the top German Railworks modellers. DLC produced by virtual Railroads (only a small selection of their stuff is sold on Steam), content by TrainTeamBerlin (their BR101, BR143, BR151, & BR294 locos are superb), routes by VirtualTraks (includes Mighty Seddin, Munster-Breman), locos, rolling stock & scenario packs by 3DZug are all excellent. Between them vR, TTB, & 3DZug produce an enormous collection of high quality German add-ons for the game. The vR shop also sells all the Line59 range of rolling stock, which comprise really nice add-ons. The vR shop also sells some of the fine Eisenbahnwerk models.
Then you have material from TSG - Train Sim Germany (by Maik Gotz) including his wonderful Konstanz-Villengen, & Hausch-Villengen routes which are first rate. Wilbur Graphics produce some really nice more unusual loco models, the payware ones can be found through the TrainWorx site (which itself sells a wonderful collection of Swiss content for the game). Some of WGs earlier work is now available as freeware.
The Forge sell a wonderful collection of very detailed high end steam models for the game including the BR41 Rekolok, BR 50.35, and BR DB 50. Romantic Railroads (Beekay) have produced some pretty decent German steamers plus some of the classic early diesel & electric locos, available through Just Trains & SimTrain.ch. Some of the Beekay former payware DLC are now available as freeware through Rail-Sim.de, other German forum communties and related Facebook Groups.
Finally, Aerosoft (some of their German routes sold on Steam) have significant more offerings on their own website including the first class 'Im Koeblitzer Bergland 3 reloaded route - v2 Ultimate edition'. RSSLO sell a wide range of quality German & Austrian locos and routes - a few of which now sold in the Steam store, but a much larger collection found outside Steam.
JTG (Join-Together) sell some really nice German scenario packs in their own store, as does ZugSimFan. And for more free content you can also visist RailDesigns.de (run by Mattias J) where there are some top route upgrades for some of the major German routes, plus various handy loco repaints. Railmanie.eu also hosts a decent collection of freeeware content includes routes & loco/wagon reskins.
Hopefully that's enough for you to get going! Most of these sites easy to find care of Google, but most are also linked through advertising & discussion on the Rail-Sim.de site. Note the general discussion board on the UKTrainSim forum is also pretty good at flagging new 3rd party DLC releases by the main German developers. Hope that's of some help.
This ... this is just awesome! THANK YOU!
I would also add the following site - https://forum.railworks-austria.at/wcf/index.php?article-list/
some nice Austrian add-ons and information.
I would like to ask a straight question, because I'm sick of asking the same question again and again in the livestreams to get no responses at all... Is this "new" TSW going to have the possibility of creating 3rd party content like trains and or routes? Or are we going to stick with the "closed simulator" policy?
I would like to have an honest answer so I can translate it too to the spanish community where I participate, because we are all really tired of waiting for the dev tools and asking (since Q4 2018), thus we're considering to move to another sim in replacement of TSW.
Btw, I can't agree with the title of the post, as I personally think TSW is a great simulator, problem is the company itself. Even with it's bugs... The only thing that it "bugs" me it's the somewhat, arcade looking type of the game menus...
They had their first third party release with Rivet games making the DB204 for TSW. They have announced since then that they are working with third party developers, so I would say yes. If your asking if the public will be able to use the tools to make trains and routes, I would say no.
I don't know what your name is on Twitch or YouTube but the question of 3rd party development has been answered several times by Matt and Sam. Any developer interested needs to go direct to Dovetail and speak to the 3rd party development people. The editor is available to people on the 3rd party development program but not the general public. I don't have anymore details but having been moderating on every daily stream since they started I know that question has been answered more than once.
I would start by reading https://live.dovetailgames.com/live/live/discover/welcome-to-the-developer-portal and go from there.
Thanks to both of you, that's what we were thinking, it's a pity that the tool isn't going to be released (as it was said in the beginning) for freeware creators like myself, about the link, all I see is for the TS202X saga, which I develop models for already.
Thanks anyways, we will be sticking with TS for a while and see what happens with other sims that are being developed and look much more keen to receive mods from the general public.
One good thing with Peter not buying it he will not be able to complain.
Thank you for your comment
Remind me not to answer if you ask a question
Folks, let's please try to keep this civil.
How will TSW 2 run compared to TSW? I have an RTX 2060 with an Intel Core i7-9750H yet with this horribly optimized game im getting 30-50 fps.
Nothing is set in stone, but it is expected to perform approximately the same as TSW with, maybe, a very small improvement due to the newer Unreal Engine version. Do not expect a huge improvement.
This is seriously pathetic.
From the developer build they showed off it looks like a big improvement over TSW, the lighting and draw distance are drastically improved. The scenery load in and frame rate looks great considering the ICE3 is capable of going a lot faster then any locomotive from TSW. For instance in TSW going through a tunnel you couldn’t see the exit as it wasn’t able to load in until you were very close, TSW2 during the stream you were able to actually see the exit from inside the tunnel which is a huge difference! The upgrades they made to the Unreal engine look to help a lot with performance and graphics look to be both improved a lot over TSW.
He asked about performance and frames per second and I gave him the answer for that. Remember, DTG's new policy is not to create expectations that may not be realized when the product launches. Let's help them do it.
As someone who has put a lot of time into TSW, TSW2 with its Unreal engine upgrade has for a fact has better lighting, shadows, improved sky, less pop in, everything just looks smoother and cleaner. Compared to TSW this is an improvement in the graphics department. As for frame rate, the frame rate dips during the stream was because of the development build and they said will not be present in the launch build. Considering it was a development build that was also loading in a bunch of locomotives not in the route at launch, and the fact that they were going 200mph, far above what you could in TSW I’d say it looks to be a lot better as well. That draw distance sure helps a lot too. It seems something else is making you feel like DTG is wanting to set your expectations low?
yes i see
Sam said it several times in the streams and everywhere else. Just watch the first Q&A stream for example.
I believe you may have taken it out of context. DTG didn’t want to be setting expectations like what had happened at the beginning of TSW such as the editor and multiplayer for example. They don’t want to say “maybe this will come.”. They want to give yes and no answers to stuff and I’m glad they are doing that, just like I was surprised when they added PIS to the Bakerloo line, I’d rather have it when it’s done then expecting it for two years because they said they might in a stream, the graphics and frame rate have nothing to do with that and are clearly improved.
To clarify, a little, although you're both pretty much accurate, we're not aiming to set expectations "low", rather we're trying to give an entirely realistic picture of what to expect - we're trying to set them "accurately". Yes, yes, some may see "low" and "accurately" as synonyms in this case, however the aim is a simple one - we're trying to do better.
We won't deal with every grievance in one step. There are more places where we're coming up short than our players would like, and we're working to address those too. Not making promises we don't know when/if we'll deliver however is a good place to start.
I think the graphics are somewhat better. Can't tell how much better just watching a live stream. Also, I can't say the frame rate is better, because the TSW2 dev build we saw in the stream was not as fluid as it usually is when I play TSW1. A computer running a dev build with debug code and streaming video at the same time will have worse performance than the same computer only running the release version of the software, so I can give them the benefit of the doubt and say what DTG has said until now, which is you will get same or slightly better performance due to the newer UE version. What I'm not going to say is that the frame rate has clearly improved because I did not see that yet and DTG never said they will deliver that.
In any case it is better to say it will be the same or a bit better and have the game do better than that at launch than saying that the frame rate will be clearly improved and then, maybe, have the game deliver the same FPS TSW1 did.
Yep, "keep the expectations low" is not the best way to describe it on my part. It is more like "not set the expectations above what the game will deliver without any doubt".
Nike: "Just Do It."
L'Oréal: "Because You're Worth It."
EA Sports: "It's In The Game"
McDonald's: "I'm Lovin' It"
MasterCard: "There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard."
DTG: "Keep The Expectations Low."
If you cite Dtg, please do it correctly. It is clear you are not happy but Sam clarified the Dtg's position as "Keep the expectations as accurate as possible" It would benefit the discussion if we separate this fact from the opinion and our interpretations.
Lighten up, it's called humour!
The accurate quote was funnier than your paraphrase, mainly because it WAS accurate
Doesn't quite roll off the tongue as easy though!
Try saying "Ambassador, you are really spoiling us" when you've got a lisp and half a bottle of tequila inside you...
Separate names with a comma.