Dovetail, Trust, And Myself - An Essay

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Doomotron, Jun 5, 2022.

  1. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Now that reminds me of the Father Ted Episode "The Passion of St Tibulus" where Ted & Dougal picket their local cinema in protest, and all it does is create more interest in the film.
     
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  2. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Take yourself to the corner, think about your actions and repent, you will currently find a few of us reflectively sat there with a cheese and pickle sandwich coupled with cake :cool:
     
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  3. A Big Chungus

    A Big Chungus Active Member

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    The thing with the patches is they are becoming a double edged sword, killing some bugs whilst often introducing new ones that are sometimes worse than those that were fixed!

    Its kind of like getting your kid to wash up and dry up for the first time. They're proud of what they've done and you feel happy for them, until you see half the plates are smashed, and a slow but gradual feeling of disappointment sinks in.
     
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  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    It's like that restaurant is the only restaurant that serves that kind of food and it's kind of nice, but it has some things wrong with it, and no matter how much the chef tweaks things, it always just somewhat misses the mark
    Are you going to avoid your (possibly favourite) takeout food forever, or are you going to dip your fork in once in a while?

    Ah, philosophical discussion... You're not necessarily the "cause" of your own frustrations etc, but you do have control over how you react to those emotions when they arise and normally those things are easily compartmentalised and closed out. Of course, having a good vent and letting out your frustration is a valid reaction in the first instance so long as it doesn't consume you (and as long as you don't "let it out with a baseball bat")
     
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  5. chacal#2181

    chacal#2181 Well-Known Member

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    Problem is that its the only restaurant around.
    But you are right, we are complaining because we would like a better product and think that there is a possibility for TSW2 to become a very good train Sim.
    Still we have, at least for some of us, à lot of fun with it !
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
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  6. VictoryWorks

    VictoryWorks Well-Known Member

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    Do you act like this for all commercial products? Poor BP trying to import all that petrol and diesel bless them. Pay what they ask, it's only fair we don't upset Dave the forecourt manager.
    You're talking about DTG like they are 4 or 5 indie devs in their backroom. This company has an annual turnover of $40.7M and 183 employees (reference: https://growjo.com/company/Dovetail_Games)
    They're not some indie dev early access "made for love" outfit, no matter how much people like you try to portray them as such.

    Victory Works is a VERY small operation but I still hold myself to high standards for my products. If you buy it, you expect it to work and if it doesn't I have a professional obligation to make sure that it gets fixed.

    I also see frustration on DTG employees faces when things don't work - it must be heart-breaking to see your hard work in tatters because so many basic fundamental functions are broken. However our angst isn't at the individual employees, it's at the money people behind it who have adopted the "get it out and move on" attitude (the infamous Dovetail flywheel). Sadly they are probably the only people in the company who don't see this feedback and almost certainly, based on the evidence of 5 years of many badly broken products, the ones who don't care.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
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  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don't get why some act lile dovetail is an indie company of 2 people and act like they can't do better. I don't get why some act like DTG lack resources to improve the game. I don't get why some who enjoy the game but want it to be better are asked why they are here and if you don't like it just leave even though for many players, there isn't an alternative. It's becoming ridiculous at this point
     
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  8. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Actually I made a conscious decision not to buy Spirit Of Steam - I refunded my pre-order, twice. Even with the track joint sounds now apparently in, I'm still in no hurry to buy what is a fairly dreary uninspiring route with cut down features on the Bossman supplied locos compared to the TSC equivalents. However that doesn't mean I don't enjoy playing some of the stuff I already have in TSW or would not buy something in future that really interested. Nor does not playing disqualify someone from coming on here and discussing or offering an opinion on the state of the game or individual DLC.
     
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  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    And guess what, I haven't bought a new dlc since Dresden-Chemnitz. Before that it was a whole year before I bought any route DLC. I only bought 4 dlc's for this game. HMA SEHS, Dresden-Chemnitz and the 313. Yes I do enjoy playing the game when I do play it but I know DTG can do better. We can come on here and point out criticisms that we have because we all know that DTG can make good things and do better. You can't just tell players that they shouldn't be here pointing out criticisms just because you don't like to hear them. If you don't like to hear them, you don't have to respond you know. You also don't have to be on the forum. But hey that's your choice, right?

    Stop telling people that they can't offer their opinion of the game. There is a reason why we have the forums. It's just being small minded frankly. If you have something good to say, you can do that just like if anyone has a problem with the game, they can point it out. There is nothing wrong with that
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
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  10. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Frankly, I expect that if each of the developers worked for themselves instead of DTG, the content would probably the better made. There are definitely talented developers in DTG and that's the sad bit - their talent is wasted by a company that should know better.
     
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  11. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is DTG have a near monopoly, the leading 2 train sims are both owned by them. If you are on console then it is a monopoly.
     
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  12. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    I buy DTG products only during major sales (around -50%).
    If quality was not a problem for them since years I probably would have bought all routes (except US freight) on release for full price.

    So why do I still buy DLC?
    Well TSW2 is one of the few train sims with lots of content, others mostly have a more narrow focus. For example, where would you get UK Train Sim stuff? Go back to MSTS?

    And sometimes they put out good routes and locos, products I can happily support although I of course expect some bugs. Like the recent Dresden routes. Then there are good 3rd party devs like the guys who did the 101.
     
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  13. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The age old problem. I've got MSTS installed alongside Open Rails and there are some real classics - North Wales Coast, Mid East Plus, the various routes done by Clive Heard. However OR isn't perfect at what it does, for example routes with UK Finescale track may not display correctly on curves if superelevation is ticked, there are various smoke, steam and physics anomalies even down to some rolling stock simply not appearing due to incompatible eng or wag files. Then you still to some extent need the MSTS editors to do certain things which generally point blank refuse to work under Win 10. The promising new route (and activity) editor TSRE, last I heard the author had decided not to progress any further with it. So at the risk of incurring the wrath of its supporters, MSTS/OR is essentially a dead horse.

    The only other real competitor on the scale of DTG is Trainz, but while it has an excellent route builder with Surveyor the driving experience is unappealing - partly down to the age of much of the rolling stock and motive power, often with downright weird aliases for cabs and sound. Also to this day no real way of making structured activities or scenarios and certainly not an all day timetable or even something as basic as having an AI signalman to set your route.
     
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  14. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I can't understand how a sim like Trainz with such an usable and accessible route editor/builder seems to require a degree in Rocket Science to make any kind of activity? It is like it is a dark art of which only a few have the knowledge. I tried following the one online tutorial I could find and I couldn't even get to the point where I managed to put a train on the tracks. So I uninstalled it and have not touched it since. I make scenario in TSC all the time and MSTS before that, yet Trainz had me baffled.

    Well you don't have to go that far back there is plenty in TSC and it is still growing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
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  15. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    It’s all done in Surveyor but frankly Trainz is still best if you want to build a replica of a model railway plan (apart from tunnels which are a complete pig) or maybe just take a virtual ride on an AI train with the commands set up to run it.

    Sadly the TSC route editor sends my laptop fan into orbit, no matter how much I turn the settings down so is pretty much unusable. Don’t know what or when changed as I used to run it on a much less powerful laptop. Tried cleaning it out but unfortunately HP laptops are effectively sealed units so you can’t get inside to give it a really good blowdown.
     
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  16. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Same as you. I haven't bought any DLC's for ages now and stopped playing a while back. But even if I bought everything it doesn't give the right to 'hippies' to say we shouldn't complain if something is not right.

    The whole purpose of forums is pointing out things that are not right and if they do get it right you can say so as well. Lets imagine DTG had no criticism of TSW2 since day one, what state do you think the game will be in, 1) Better 2) Worse eh?

    You ask a decent company trying to make a decent game if they prefer praise or criticism and they will always say criticism, the best ones anyway. How is a company to improve itself otherwise. The trouble with DTG is that they are getting plenty of criticism but seem a little hard of hearing at times.
     
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  17. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Hey Im a hippie and I'll complain with the best of them when warranted (which right now is most of the time).
     
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  18. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I think I somewhat addressed that here
    Although deciding what is right or wrong, good or bad is impossible, what is possible is to establish some guidelines to decide what to fix, and what to focus on, this I assume has to be a compromise between remaining a profitable company and not causing a riot in the community.

    There are some basic things that are probably universal, for example:
    • An update needs to make the game better than before, or at least remain the same quality as before.
    • Considering how the game is advertised, realism matters, and train driving should be the main focus even if other activities are possible (i.e riding as a passenger)
    • Every kind of activity (scenario or timetable service) should be able to be completed in a realistic matter.
    I don't think the points I raised are 100% universal, nothing is, but IMO those are sort of the basics of a game like this, and to be fair those are usually OK, although there are exceptions, CSS in Sherman Hill for example, the BR187, The 30.05 update, etc...

    I think people have the right to be upset, not because "DTG are not listening to them", that seems a pretty childish mentality, but because there are fundamental problems with this game related to some DLC, or like the case that spawned this thread, an update with made the game significantly worse than it was before, even outside HRR and RT the buffer problems are affecting almost every DLC.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2022
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  19. VictoryWorks

    VictoryWorks Well-Known Member

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    So swapping out my petrol analogy for something you don't "need and is just entertainment.... if you buy a TV for £1000, all the bells and whistles, all the latest features, and when you get it out of the box you find that for this model on certain channels it just doesn't get a signal. And one of those happens to be your favourite channel, you'd just put up with that? You wouldn't expect it fixed or replaced? You'd be fine if the company said they'd send round an engineer.. in a year.. and maybe he comes and maybe he doesn't. Or maybe he comes and fixes that channel.. but now 5 others don't work. You'd be fine with that? You'd just right off £1000. I wish I had money to burn like you do. Maybe that is why you can't relate to the rest of us. And doing it under the guise of "taking care of you", pure comedy :D

    As dhekelian says, good companies take criticism and act on it. This modern day tribalism of protecting multi-million pound companies like they're a small child being bullied by a gang of teens is totally beyond me, it really is.
    Fix GAME BREAKING bugs. Fix things that are fundamentally wrong with the main aim of the game - simulating the driving of a locomotive. And when you fix those things don't break even more things.
    It's not much to demand, it really isn't!
     
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  20. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    I don´t want to be the party pooper here, but I suspect that even this 8-pager won´t yield any change of attitude from DTG. Although there have been very valuable inputs and views in this thread, after 8 months with TSW2 I suspect that even an 80-pager won´t change anything.
    If I needed any more proof to confirm my suspicion, the May, 30th "Update" shed a light.
    It is was it is, love it or leave it. A pity ...
     
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  21. VictoryWorks

    VictoryWorks Well-Known Member

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    I would suggest we agree to differ and continue with our different opinions :)
    You seem to be in a position where you need to just accept a bad situation and ignore it - I totally respect that if that's what you need to do.
    But not everyone is in that place. Some of us still have a fire in our belly and a desire in our hearts to try and make things "better". We haven't given up like you have. And saying things like you did in your previous post makes it sound like all of the issues are subjective and open to interpretation - "it's my truth".
    Some of them are: Period clothing - it's not good but it's a game and compromises need to be made. Women on the footplate - it's wrong but DTG would rather be "inclusive" than follow history. Empty timetable - DTG would rather add real services (if they ever create any more) than use services with the wrong locos.
    But it is also demonstrably wrong in MANY cases - the SoS consists being the wrong way around so you have to manually dump the brakes is not anyone's "feelings", it's there. It effects every user who plays one of the 6 selected scenarios. It would also have been found by the most basic of QA testing - i.e. play the scenario, 1 minute in, oh the train won't move! The lack of delay in the steam system is nothing like a real locomotive. Go back and read the first post in this thread - a lot of these problems are not "feels".

    It strikes me as odd that you've given up caring and won't try to improve anything - but you have enough desire to interject in this debate and try to make everyone else think the same way as you. Why did you not get the gist of this thread and just move on? Why did you choose to post in it and fight for everyone to give up and accept mediocrity? It's not a position I can understand.

    Anyway, the writing is kind of on the wall here. SoS is sadly not what I was hoping for in it's current state. DTG have shown no commitment towards it ever being significantly changed (beyond adding manual firing) nor adding more services so it actually feels like a busy steam route in 1958. They've also chosen to pander to 2020 sensibilities over historical recreation which doesn't sit well with me.
    I've waited 5 years so far, I can come back later :)
     
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  22. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    Been away for a while. Not played TSW for a while either. Doesn't look like much has changed on the forums or with DTG if I'm honest.

    For those that think DTG run the only restaurant in town, seriously, take a step back and get out more.
     
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  23. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Well, TSC content never received any updates. TSW does, so that's a change in attitude from DTG, and IMO an improvement. It's just a shame that updates seem to break as much things as they're fixing/improving.
     
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  24. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    TSC content has received updates in the past, but the difference is that it can relatively easily be modified and updated by the community and third party companies to put right the errors, mistakes or omissions that DTG released.

    All DTG are doing with TSW is trying to prevent the wider community from doing the same, keeping it all in house, quoting various copyright issues, proprietary issues and ue issues. Ultimately anything for TSW has to come through them.

    Most if not all of the successful simulators for any genre, be it trains, trucks or planes are all heavily modifiable by the community and this keeps them alive and thriving.
     
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  25. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    The thing that really baffles me with TSW is that DTG had an almost unique opportunity to build something from scratch and yet they’ve managed to get so many fundamentals so totally wrong.

    The vast majority of other sim games have issues because they are built upon previous versions and therefore have to improve or workaround old code. TSC was just a development of the original MSTS so was always hampered by this. Even FS2020 is mostly a stunning graphics engine bolted on to significant chunks of code dating back as far as FS2002/2004. Although Asobo are struggling manfully and are constantly improving the sim, by their own admission it is clearly presenting challenges to them at the moment.

    With TSW on the other hand, DTG were starting with a blank canvas. They had the opportunity to learn lessons and take the best bits of TSC and re-design the bits that didn’t work. TSW was to be the future of the company yet inexplicably they’ve somehow managed to completely blow it. Not only did they not learn lessons from TSC, they’ve ported over many of the failed ideas and design problems inherent in that game into TSW - so many elements of this game are just so utterly half-arsed. In addition, they picked an engine that is very obviously, even to a layman like me, not suited at all to this type of game. We’ve probably all said in the past how good the graphics are, and in little snippets that’s true, but the reality is that TSW’s graphics are so-so at best when you stack it up against modern titles….they just seem better because the vanilla graphics in TSC were just so outdated. The performance impact of a draw distance anything more than terrible should have been enough to bin UE4 at the outset, and the less said about the sound the better.

    They’ve then compounded these fundamental errors in the design of the game by making it a closed shop, and all but shut it off to 3rd party companies and community modders. Even Microsoft saw the benefit of this with an in-game store for 3rd party content as well as a folder in the file structure of the game named ‘Community’. FS2020 thrives because of it….without this 3rd party content the sim wouldn’t be anything like what it is just now. Microsoft win because they take a cut of everything sold in the in-game store.

    Whichever manager at DTG was responsible for that monumental failure in due diligence that occurred when they picked UE as the engine (critically meaning no public editor) really ought not to be working there anymore. It really wouldn’t surprise me to find that the opposite is actually the case, no doubt they’ve actually been promoted.

    TSW is a ok game, but it could, and really should, have been so much more.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    This tends to be restricted to locos and MUs. Very infrequent that routes get updated (DTG or third party) in TSC.
    Part of the reason I quit TSC outright is because of route failures that meant I couldn't create scenarios properly (mainly branch lines incorrectly signalled)
     
  27. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Signaling and safety systems (apart from the very simple british stuff like AWS) were mostly broken in TSC. Thats also the reason i quit this game long ago.
     
  28. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but if you have the desire and knowledge to do so, it's possible to change anything and everything in the editor.

    Not something that is ever going to happen in TSW, which is a shame because the ideas and dreams could mean it's brilliant. The reality is it's far from that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  29. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't really help anyone else. I can do whatever changes I want, but then cannot get this out to anyone else in a reliable fashion (and there's already enough confusion with regards to publication of TSC content in my view)
    3rd party content in TSC is OK, but not "brilliant". I find as many routing and control issues on third party software as I do on DTG content.
    Might be different for assets and locos (AP's stuff is known to be good) but for EVERYTHING else, they're all as fallible as DTG. Scenarios failing, missing speed boards or limits, missing signals, sidings set as one way... I've seen examples of all of them in 3rd party TSC content
     
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  30. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it didn't read as I meant it, but I meant that TSW could be brilliant. However without the community it is what it is and we're solely reliant on DTG and their chosen partners.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    TSW cannot be "brilliant" because DTG cannot make it that way and 3rd parties have proven over many years in TSC that they cannot either. Again, locos and units maybe. Routes, no and unfortunately routes and scenarios / timetables are probably more important than the trains which run on them for me. Don't care if a train accellerates two mph slower than IRL, but if a branch line signal's missing and you can't put a train on it without fouling any scenario you want to make that works as it does IRL? (yes, very specific I know but that setup cost me hours on TSC)
     
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  32. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe "brilliant" was me being too kind and "better" would have been more appropriate.
     
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  33. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    TSW2 will never be brilliant without editors. DTG are just not capable of brilliance, only average and mediocre.
    Most of the good stuff in TSC, is due to third party developers or freeware.
     
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  34. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    I think that was certainly true early on, but there are some 3rd party routes out there that I would class as ‘brilliant’. For example, Wherry Lines, all of the payware (and a good chunk of the freeware) stuff done by Alan Thomson Sim, the routes Keith Ross made etc. Sadly most of the DTG content for TSC typified what was to come with TSW. Half-finished with missing features, broken signalling, rudimentary poor quality locos etc.

    In some aspects DTG’s content for TSW has improved, but the age old problems around rushed, half-finished work and the relentless lack of care mystifies me. How, with all the German routes they released for TSC, did DTG build broken German and British signalling systems? When you try and think of a logical reason as to why or how this could happen I can’t find it.

    In all seriousness, how could have they allowed it to happen?
     
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  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    ATS were the ones who were the final straw. I used to watch all of Alan's vids, bought the WCML missing link, found three missing covering signals, reported them, got told they weren't being fixed. So no...
    AP Wherry Lines are a closed rural system, very hard to mess that up
    Keith Ross I never had issues with
     
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  36. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    The Missing Link was ultimately freeware, with an early access for ATS subs. Although I’m surprised you got that response from them I think, to be fair, their proper payware stuff is, in my opinion at least, very good indeed.
     
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  37. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    The comment that DTG chose a game engine unsuited to this sim is either uninformed, or the user has additional knowledge he did not choose to share. I am by no means a game engine expert, but my reading gives no indication that any of the major game engines (such as Cryengine or Unity) have anything to contribute to TSW2 that would justify a major (!!!) effort to port to a new engine - bad enough the port to UE%. The game changer would be UE5, but DTG will need developers with many hours of experience of EU5 (and where would they be right now?)
     
  38. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    32 sound limit... that's not an unsuitable thing in a game engine for a train driving simulator?
     
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  39. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    It clearly is when we constantly have audio cutting in and out on various routes. Just look at the silent AWS issue on BML for example.

    32 sounds are nowhere near enough for a train simulator, given how much noise trains make in real life, with various different and individual components all making their own unique sounds.
     
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  40. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    All this talk of changing game engine is a little pointless IMO, TSW is on UE and thats not going to change.

    DTG choose this at the start and unless we are all prepared to lose our collections and start again, UE is where it has to stay.

    Was this the correct decision is worthy of another thread entirely.
     
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  41. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    No one is talking about them changing engine again now, the point was them picking the wrong engine in the first place when TSW was conceived. This game was a blank canvas and could have been built under any engine DTG chose.

    They chose UE4, and with that choice we, as prospective customers, lost what we were promised from the outset. They either failed to do proper due diligence or they knew all along it wasn’t suitable but went with it anyway. Neither exactly covers them in glory. Had I known a public editor was never on the cards I wouldn’t have been so keen to purchase TSW DLC as I was. I don’t think it’s too strong to say DTG outright lied to its customers, intentionally stringing us along for a couple of years pretending there was an editor due for imminent release. As we now know that cannot, and will not, happen.

    That, right there, is DTG in a nutshell.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  42. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    It should be easy enough to prioritize certain sounds in certain situations.

    Again, If im in the cab there is no need to play LOUD bird sounds when im driving 160 km/h in a 500 ton train but for some reason i can hear these sounds while driving in a freaking SILENT train or a train with no Joint sounds or AWS sound.

    I doubt its the fault of UE, i guess the whole code base for the sounds is just messy and not working as supposed
     
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  43. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Name an engine that would have served better (and no, RAGE isn't an option).
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I remember when Rail Simulator came out and many were bemoaning the lack of "community" compared to MSTS which had a huge freeware scene. It took a long time but now TSC has a very good community. There are lots of excellent freeware offerings, many of which knock spots of a lot of payware offerings, mainly because they aren't budgeted. There have been lots of good third party payware routes over the year. In TSC DTG's and RSC's route building has mainly been very good although they only do the minimal, you rarely get branches off a mainline for example. I think DTG/RSC's stock has always looked fine but often lacked features and the sounds were never as good.

    I do think their trains so far have been mainly a higher standard in TSW, the sounds are better than they were, you don't necessarily yearn for AP or SSS to produce a sound pack.

    I don't think we will this time, see anything like the same sort of community around TSW not with the weak scenario planner and lack of editor. Although this forum is a nice place to be so there is a community here just not in the same sense.

    However, maybe I will be eating my words in another decade!
     
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  45. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Considering that some train sound mods are just sounds from the files of the train in game, I don't think the sound issues we have seen on trains like the M7A are the result of UE but DTG doing a poor job of mixing and implementing the sounds properly
     
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  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    They're still developing the route (just checked) and payware or subware is still payware...
     
  47. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, I don’t know as I’m not a game designer/coder. As a game player I can confidently say that I haven’t ever played another game in any genre where sounds (some of them critical to the functioning of the game - such as the AWS or DSD in this case) either cut out or simply don’t play at all, totally at random.

    It comes down to either UE4 not being suitable (and I’ve read enough to have cause to believe the stock sound engine in UE4 isn’t that great), DTG don’t know how to use it (still, after 5 years) or a combination of both.

    Whatever the reasoning is, as a consumer it is simply not acceptable.

    ARuscoe You’re correct, I believe it’s still in development. I think the WCMLML is almost the only example they did (perhaps Leeds Lines too) where people subbed to the site had immediate access to the latest updates. Non-subs could get it for free, but they had to wait a fair while to do so. Their actual payware stuff is of much higher quality IMHO and is as good as the Wherry Lines, if not better.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
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  48. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    If it was going to happen, it would have done so by now. The fact is DTG want as much of this in house and the fact they can't get off their backsides to give us a half decent consist and scenario editor says it all. This is the same stance I believe EA were trying to take with Kuju back in the days before RS came out - a world where everything was strictly controlled with minimal uncontrolled external creation or commentary.
     
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  49. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Which is fine I suppose if you are a more casual gamer or have a general interest in trains but not so much in a specialised area. I apologise if I am talking out of turn here but I think for the more serious enthusiast when you can only control in a very limited way what you can run and where and how then the flaw in just having content produced with a budget by one or two producers means you won't get the variety needed and you get what DTG think is appropriate. You can see the results judging by the layers on WCL, the depiction of the DMU's on NTP and TVL, the wrong Dostos on one of the German routes (I forget which) and of course the class 101 (again) on GWML, also the lack of buffet cars on the SOS. This all means that I am not sure DTG are always on the ball or maybe they just can't factor in the extra work in the budgets for a DLC.

    For example, NTP is a lovely route, and the stock is excellent but as it stands in service mode you can only use the trains which came with it and the heavy freight pack, or you can produce a very rudimentary scenario where you can't alter the consists or anything. You are relying on DTG's own interpretation of what is realistic. They have done fair job but there are services missed out from what I can see. I know you can't compare the two simulators as TSW is far more detailed but imagine what a TSC version of NTP set in 1983 would have contained and even if it didn't contain any more stock than the TSW version there is a whole library of stock you can use.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
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  50. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    We know DTG don't like doing toilets on trains but what is there excuse at not doing Buffet cars?
     
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