Dovetail, Trust, And Myself - An Essay

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Doomotron, Jun 5, 2022.

  1. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think they have an ‘excuse’ but there are two reasons why they don’t do buffet cars and that is the extra time it takes to model the extra car (exterior and interior) and the fact that it increases the number of unique vehicle assets used in the train, which they need to keep down as much as they can for memory performance.
     
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  2. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Excuse and reason are the same thing (at least where I come from) but hey at least they model the buffet cars closed. Passengers are gonna have to bring their own food.

    The amount of money SNCF, Amtrak and DB lose by having closed buffet cars every day though must be huge ;)
     
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  3. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Surely they could hold it in though ;)
     
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  4. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This is what separates TSW to TSC. In the latter, you'd see great variety in rolling stock, as well as different variations to liveries, in one consist. In TSW it all seems 'the same' looking, which is quite sad.
     
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  5. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Well-Known Member

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    Waht would be the use for a 36m run, if you can not wait until you are at the other end of the run to eat, then eat before leaving
     
  6. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Because these journeys are snapshots of a longer run. Take the Liverpool to Crewe run, the expresses to/from London were typically a four hour journey at that point. And not having buffet or restaurant cars in the formation goes against prototype practice. Given the lead in time Spirit Of Steam had I find it inconceivable that artist time could not have been set aside to make a catering car and it’s not like there’s no reference material. They found plenty of time to dress up inappropriate female footplate crew but not to model a type of vehicle that ran in most long distance trains with Mark One stock that, once built, would be available for any other route using Mark Ones too.

    DTG are at times a lazy company.
     
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  7. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, DTG produced several different mark 1 vehicles for TSC, you could create a realistic and relatively varied formation.

    If it is true that we are unable to have a larger variety of carriages because of constraints on memory usage then we are never going to get realistic consists, certainly on routes going back more than 30 years.
     
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  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I can see this will be true whilst Gen8 support is being maintained, but looking back on how DTG produced content for TSC and TSW over the years they're always loathe to create multiple paint jobs for things, sticking to one livery and one layout for their consists. This is where 3rd party content in TSC comes in for the most part, people releasing different liveries which then get put into scenarios.

    It would be a brilliant thing for DTG to do if they had a consist randomizer for old loco hauled stock. Even for new multi MU runs. I was at Shrewsbury a week or so ago and saw a 158 and 150/2 attached together... Having that as a random "possible consist makeup" would be excellent in game
     
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  9. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes it would great if DTG could create something like that, even if the length of the train was restricted to 8 or 10 carriages, if they were more of a variety than 10 carriages of just three types it would be better.

    I have seen those consists come through Wolverhampton heading to Bimringham International, seems there is still life in the old class 150 yet.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
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  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I guess the first step will be the consist editor section of the scenario creator. Then automate it for timetable mode and who knows what you could be driving on certain runs...

    Yep, I saw them on the run via Shrews to BHI and down the Marshes line to south wales
    Seemed odd to me that they had two 158/150 trains where they could have put the 150s together and run them at 75 whereas the 158s together would be able to run at 90, but what do I know?
     
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  11. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I am sure it is a fairly recent thing I don't recall seeing these formations in the past, not sure what the reasoning is behind it.
     
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  12. archline

    archline Active Member

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    TSW2 is a simulation game which should show the local railway and human culture more than geopolitics. So the current DTG manipulation of the political side of things I couldn't agree more.
    But the quality of the game, I agree with part of this article, DTG is too quick to release DLC after DLC at the expense of polishing the details. A typical example is loco, take BR185.2 for example, many parts of the vehicle don't match the real thing, there is no mechanical room, the power switch for the vehicle has been moved to a panel behind the cab. br185.2 also doesn't include the BR182's double tap on the power handle to automatically calculate the distance the vehicle travels, LZB hasn't given an update until now, which doesn't match the real vehicle at all. This is completely at odds with DTG's usual promotion of "feeling the detail".
    Secondly, there is so little variety in German freight carriages that all missions utilise the same few carriages, and the vehicles on the Laaers 560 are always crisp white, you get the feeling that Germany doesn't produce vehicles in other colours.
    Finally there is the monitoring and feedback from third party studios, which is also a frequent source of feedback.
    I'm really looking forward to DTG's high quality DLC as it's going to be great with the help of the Unreal 4 engine. I was impressed with the driving experience especially when GWE and RSN launched. but now, it's hard for me to find that excitement again.
     
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  13. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean?

    For the TRAXX locos, this is additional. It depends on the TOC, if there's a roadrunner or not. I don't know if MRCE & DB Cargo/Ralion do have the roadrunner built in in all their locos. Do they? Do you know that?
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
  14. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    I think he means that DTG spent more time virtue signalling with LGBT freight containers than actually fixing the game. :D:D:D:D
     
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  15. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Creating a container livery - 90 minutes
    Creating, testing and distributing the various fixes in the last six months that the container's been in game...? Lots more than 90 minutes

    Yup, totally a valid argument
     
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  16. archline

    archline Active Member

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    I asked the DB Cargo driver and he replied that BR185.2 and BR187 are equipped with it. He is not aware of whether the loco of third party companies have this feature.
    There is a downside to the BR182's roadrunner function in the game though, the MFD doesn't have any prompts, only two bibi sounds to tell you that the function is working properly. But it's better than nothing, after all, a number of DB Cargo locomotives do have this feature.
     
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  17. archline

    archline Active Member

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    oh, what I mean by this is that TSW2 should show more of the local culture, scenery and trains, which are far more interesting than the politics.
     
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  18. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Also wouldn't it be different teams who designed containers and the clothes of people so there are different teams that do that.
     
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  19. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, so maybe those "people designers" would have had so much more time if the one person who did that container livery hadn't done that...?
    (note irony)
     
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  20. archline

    archline Active Member

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    Due to the English is not my first language, so there may be some problems with the description of my content, please also pardon me.:):)
     
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  21. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I don't have much problem with the clothes except for the straw boaters, and that too many men appear hatless (in the 50s, an Englishman would no more go out without his hat than without his trousers). The monochrome clothing color palette is about right: it was a pretty drab time, sartorially.
     
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  22. colinL

    colinL Well-Known Member

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    Just wanted to chime in here. Besides all the negative comments I think one of the bigger problems for TSW2 is that it needs to be compatible with consoles as well. Or lets say it like this, it breaks the spine of the potential the game/sim could have. And I don't mean this in any way as to bash consoles and all this PC is so much better bs. But I can only think to myself that many third party devs that delivered good content for TSC are deterred from developing for TSW as from what I've heard its quite some more work developing for the different platforms. I can also assume that this is also reason why TSW is by far not as accessible for modding as TSC is. Repaints, mods, etc. And then comes DTG quality management. This has already been discussed so many times in the forums. Stuff is working one day, they patch it and suddenly it stops working and you have to wait months, if it ever gets fixed even, until it works again. When Hamburg-Lubeck was released I purchased it on releaseday and immediately noticed (besides the 500Hz magnet stuff and other bugs) that the instrument lighting in the MRCE 182 wasn't working correctly. Basically, the instrument lighting is on all the time and the supposed dimmer which would dim or turn of the lighting of the gauges doesn't do so. Instead, it dims the annunciators, which would be the job of the annunciator dim buttons. But guess what? That one doesn't have any function at all. However it was working fine in the DB182. So, I did not hesitate to actually write a support ticket. Did my best to describe the problem. Well, the response was "the team will look into it". What happened since then? Nothing. When did Hamburg Lubeck release? like a year ago? And while I honestly don't have that much of a clue about software/game development, I am fairly certain that fixing this and making it work as it should simply can't be too much work. Besides that, like mentioned before it worked fine on the DB BR182. And this is the laziness that disappoints people so much. Like I appreciate new content coming out and so on, but why don't you make sure the current/old content is working correctly first? It'd make said content much more accessible, certainly for the new audience as well. And I'm fairly certain theres more stuff/bugs like this in the game.
    Honestly this makes me sad, as I think the TSW platform has so much potential so be far better than TSC.
     
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  23. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    From what DTG have said it's not the console in the case of "developing it takes more time" but because the memory is more restrictive you can't develop nine different coaches for three different consists and expect it all to work. Many 3rd party devs like their repaints, inside and out
    The restriction here is that all repaints and so on would need to meet the TOU of Sony and Microsoft. This may be more stringent than via designer in game, but even those are moderated. Can't see this as a barrier to a proper 3d party dev producing proper content though
    The problem seems to be that they never STOP developing, ie they don't say "Well between 1st March and 1st September this is the instruction set we shall be working with and everything will work like this and no further core releases will be done except to bring it up to March 1st spec". This means that every time there's a new release they have to release a patch to the main files which allows for whatever new stuff is in the new DLC, so instead of releasing one new thing which may be broken, they're releasing that new thing, and something which may break all the old things.
    It's a dev cycle which causes more headaches than anything else.

    I've suggested in the past they might have something like Microsoft's "Super Tuesday" which is a periodic release of all major bugfixes and updates. Nothing else is ever released on that day and it's not aligned with any new release. From then on (until next super tuesday) everything that DID work, WILL work. DTG could easily do quarterly or half yearly core updates, and have three or four DLC releases coinciding to release within that period that we KNOW would then work reasonably well rather than being devved up to the last minute and probably have a lot of stuff which is broken or just never worked
     
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  24. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    For me I wanted to 'feel' I was driving an authentic train which is why I wanted toilets and Buffet cars and as has been said the routes are taking out of longer routes so it is valid to have them.

    When doing the Buffet car on the HST for example it would be so much easier to do than a passenger carriage, all it is, is a narrow gangway and a short bar the rest is an enclosed kitchen. This is what makes TSW2 more an arcade game than a sim which is fine if they are going after that but Matt should admit that is the case.
     
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  25. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    There are buffet cars on the HST and the ICE trains, the buffets are not open for business. That way all they have to do is draw the closed hatch. How would it be easier when you would need a person serving, you would need to depict all of the items for sale (which they wouldn't have licences for), its just not worth the effort. To be honest it isn't hard to imagine the buffet car is closed and that you don't need the toilet, and it certainly doesn't make it an arcade game.
     
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  26. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Well-Known Member

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    I would see more the toilettes than the cafeteria wagon
     
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  27. colinL

    colinL Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for shedding some light into it. I mean yeah, console limitations might be one thing. But its hard for me to explain how I mean it in regards to modding. Lets give an example. I also like playing DiRT Rally 2. Rally Racing Simcade game. You can download liveries for cars and there are plentiful of them. In a game which would be "modding friendly" in my books, you could add said liveries and it would just add another livery to a car. Lets say in the base game the car comes with 5 liveries. It would add a sixth one and make it selectable. However, it is handled like that, that liveries can only replace other ones, so instead I have to decide which of the 5 liveries I want to overwrite. And I kinda have the same feeling about TSW2. Don't take it too literal as with TSW's liveries it isn't the case. At least not exactly like that. What kinda bugs me about TSW's liveries for example is that in order to not replace existing liveries they seemingly have to be created via the ingame editor (I don't know exactly, I don't create liveries) which kinda restricts which areas on a loco you can paint and so on. I love the BR101 as you can tell from my profile picture. There are tons of advertisement liveries for it and so on. I have downloaded a few for ingame use but they all look kinda off. For example the hand rails for the cabin doors are all painted in the locos main colour, which isn't the case in reality. Or other areas of the loco which would usually just be metal are painted in colour and so on. Which as far as I know it is due to limitations in the livery designer where you have no choice other than to paint over those assets. Anyways, I'm getting too deep into it. What really annoys me is the fact that there are so many pretty easy bugs, may it be a simple sound bug where the sound of a railway crossing is playing at all times (HRR update *cough*) or like I mentioned the MRCE 182 instrument lighting stuff. Bugs where you'd think it can't take like years of dedication, blood, sweat and tears to fix. And seemingly it does. Or it just gets left alone. Oh, and then there'll be a new DLC in a few years down the line, where the loco gets reintroduced in an updated version where it doesn't have those problems anymore ;)
     
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  28. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    Like I mentioned in a previous comment, the class 313 for example, still does not have any DSD audio. It took me about 3 minutes of gameplay to detect that. It doesn't take 90+ minutes to fix some of the more ridiculous bugs in the game. :D:D:D
     
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  29. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    "I think he means that DTG spent more time virtue signalling with LGBT freight containers than actually fixing the game."
    Your comment was they spent MORE time making the container than doing fixes rather than saying whether fixes take less time

    And your comment above about the 313, that's time taken to detect a bug, not fix, implement, test and release it, so again, no
     
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  30. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    Are you implying it takes a whole fiscal quarter to implement a BEEP? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
     
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  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I would imply that finding the fault is the least part of bug fixing and instigating a fix, ensuring that fix doesn't impact on other systems, implementing said fix in a test environment, testing the fix, doing a full test of all systems and then releasing the fix may take longer in man hours than colouring in a container :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
     
  32. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    God this is an insufferable discussion
     
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  33. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    For a DLC delayed as long as the 313, it is beyond ridiculous it would release with so many flaws. The model is wrong, the texturing is amateur and there are sounds missing.
     
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  34. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    And it certainly doesn't make it a sim.
     
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  35. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    When the 313 was delayed it doesn’t mean they were working on it for longer it means they stopped working on it and then started again later. The amount of time spent making it would have been the same, just later, and the number of flaws will be exactly the same as if it was released on the day it was first pencilled to release.
     
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  36. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    A DLC with so many flaws should not even get past stage 1 of QA. But it actually got released.
     
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  37. Gilly

    Gilly Well-Known Member

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    I had the exact same thought. Where are all the straw boater wearers off to? The Manchester Ship Canal boat race or perhaps the Mersey Estuary Regatta?
     
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  38. countcussy

    countcussy Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. I travelled on many HST units in the 80`s where the buffet cars were just for decoration it seemed. :D
     
  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Right. Just about any crowd photo from the era is a sea of fedoras and trilbies, with the occasional bowler or flat cap mixed in. But straw boaters? Maybe at Henley.
     
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  40. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    And by 1958 half of the men would not have hats but there would be no balding men who completely shaved their heads like in modern TSW routes, they would have had a Bobby Charlton combover. There would not have been a single boater in sight as you say.
     
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  41. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Makes you wonder what reference material, photographs etc. the artists were looking at. Or were they just guessing?
     
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  42. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Guessing! Everytime........
     
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  43. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I travelled on them from the late 70's to early 90's and apart from strikes I can't really remember buffet cars on longer journeys being shut, maybe I was lucky, make a change for once if so :|
     
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  44. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn't surprise me if they just guessed.
     
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  45. Coppo

    Coppo Well-Known Member

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    I think it might have been this

     
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  46. The_Drunken_Engineer

    The_Drunken_Engineer Well-Known Member

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    I'm just happily surprised they didn't have [transgender people (edited, JD, appropriate term)] flying pride flags and protesting for blm in 1950's England. Perhaps there was a memory issue.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2022
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  47. jamesthepershing

    jamesthepershing Active Member

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    Yet it's rarely used...
     
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  48. dtg_jd

    dtg_jd Staff Member

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    Can I please remind everyone to use inclusive language when on the forum, as we have players of all backgrounds who use them.
     
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  49. antony.henley

    antony.henley Well-Known Member

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    I think if I remember correctly they originally started work on the 313 then stopped and went to work on something else. There are also other projects (loco DLC) that some devs have been working on that will quite possibly never see a wheel turned in TSW 2, which is a damn shame. So not everything makes it.

    Hentis
     
  50. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    So there are 9 pages of issues about your companies products. Some major, some minor but all relevant to those who have posted them and the only response we get from a representative of the company is a reminder about using inclusive language!

    Maybe if more attention was paid to the quailty of what is being released instead of making sure it's ticking boxes, threads like this wouldn't be necessary!
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2022
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