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Dtg And 3rd Party Developers (and Why They're Needed)

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by jolojonasgames, May 30, 2021.

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  1. Yes, and I think 3rd parties could offer a solution

    91 vote(s)
    85.8%
  2. Yes, but I don't think 3rd parties would offer a solution to this issue

    9 vote(s)
    8.5%
  3. No

    6 vote(s)
    5.7%
  1. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Hi all, many of you will be familiar with a number of 3rd party content developers for TSW. At the moment these are just three (TSG, Rivet Games and Skyhook). Compared to the much larger amount of developers in TS this is a dissapointingly low number, especially when you consider it is TSW and not TS that needs more content the most.

    3rd parties are often responsible for some of the mort renewing and interesting DLC's, and generally take more risk than DTG, because DTG is doing just fine developing the same types of route from the same three countries over and over again, with France and Canada being the only exceptions. However, the small amount of 3rd parties in TSW means that we pretty much only get DTG content, with a Rivet or Skyhook route once or twice a year and some more 3rd party loco DLC's. This results in TSW being really restricted in the content it has (electric German mainlines, 3rd rail British commuter and American freight, with some exceptions and a bit of change in the form of NEC with Rush Hour). This restriction is leading to a kind of attrition within the playerbase. Speaking for myself, I can't play TSW as much as I could when it was newer, just because (even with all German DLC except HHL) I'm always playing the same kind of trains on the same kinds of services and getting bored of it. Some variety in countries, and the type of content developed for the 'big 3' countries is much needed at the moment.

    3rd parties could change this, and make TSW a lot more diverse, by venturing into new countries (possibily in partnership with DTG due to the smaller size of many other developers), and into new kinds of gameplay (like Rivet did with their more touristic railways, introducing Switzerland along the way). There is a huge demand for some countries like Japan, the Netherlands, Australia, Austria (those are different countries apperantly ;)), Switzerland and many more, as is there for German Diesel and Vintage content and British mainlines with overhead electrification. This means there is a huge gap 3rd developers could fill, which DTG might never.

    But why aren't there more 3rd parties developing content for TSW? Are they not interested or ignorant of the TSW market?

    No. One of the issues is that TSW requires more work for a single loco or coach than in TS (route work is apparantly roughly the same for both TSW and TS, going by comments about it on streams). However, despite this I know there are many smaller studios willing to give it a try.

    The main issue is DTG's apparant reluctance to allow 3rd parties acces to TSW, with it being unknown (to me) why. Maybe DTG thinks this will give them a monopoly within their own game, maybe it's DTG being afraid the 3rd parties will outdo them with better/more content for the same price, or quite possibily, DTG just hasn't had a 'lightbulb moment' yet.

    Let me illustrate this by a story I heard of a 3rd party developer, ChrisTrains, who might be familiar to some of you from RivetGames streams or his Dutch and German TS content.

    ChrisTrains has already tried to make content in Unreal 4, and has approached DTG, with his wishes to give making TSW content a try. DTG did not respond. DTG has not made development tools for TSW available for third parties. And it appears that many more smaller studios that want to develop TSW content run into these problems. ChrisTrains could be a perfect partner for developing the often requested Dutch content, as he has knowledge, sounds, experience and a good reputation within TS that means he might even draw some players across to TSW. (are you interested in Dutch content? check out my Den Haag - Breda and Enschede - Amersfoort suggestions, or Purno's Amsterdam/Schiphol - Amersfoort/Lelystad and cyrill.kroonstuiver's Utrecht - Rotterdam/Den Haag suggestions)

    So, please, DTG, allow more 3rd parties. Make developement tools available (after having reached an agreement with the 3rd party) and improve communications. 3rd parties are really needed, as DTG can never meet the extremely varied demand for TSW routes there currently is without 3rd parties. And when this demand isn't met, people will get bored over time, and that's the last thing you want from a game.

    Please do let me know your thoughts about this issue, and what 3rd parties could offer to TSW.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
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  2. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    How do you know TSW only has 3 third party vendors? TSW has many more third-party providers who are currently still familiarizing themselves with the TSW Editor or doing contract work for DTG.

    DTG does not stand in the way of any company, all companies get the editor when they want it. All you have to do is contact DTG and introduce them to the projects you have already done.

    Not all companies brag everywhere that they have TSW Editor. It takes months to understand everything in the TSW Editor ...

    I don't know what you want to say with your post now? Why don't you write to the companies yourself and ask? What's the point of saying "DTG please add 3rd party developer?" What should DTG do?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
  3. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with most of your statements and also think that TSW can only benefit from 3rd parties, i have to point out some inaccurancies:

    This is factually not true. We also have France, Scotland and Canada.

    Well the Dresden-Riesa route will have some of the branch lines which is indeed something new. It's also the longest german route in TSW (soon), so that's also a 'new' thing.


    But overall, yes! You are right! I also read the statement of TSG where he said that DTG's third party team seems to be in a hibernation kind of state. And the same thing reported by trainsimcz , where he once wrote to DTG to develop for TSW, got his answer like 3 weeks later and then said no to him. There may be reasons for that, sure! Reasons we don't know and don't necessarily have to know. But overall it seems that it's very hard for 3rd party devs to start developing for TSW.

    Another thought: 3rd Party devs make themselves dependent from DTG - all the sales, testing etc. only goes via DTG as the content has to work for console as well. So overall 3rd party have hardly any control about pricing as well. Developing for TSW takes much more time than for TS, as you also said. But then having to sale a loco for like 13 euros seems to be not very lucrative condering the amount of time a small dev studio has to put into that loco.
     
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  4. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    You are competely ignoring what I actually say in my post.

    I know DTG does stand in the way of companies, not responding to them or refusing them acces, because developement studios (like ChrisTrains) have said that they ran into those issues.

    What DTG should do is give the 3rd party developers that want acces and have something to offer acces to developement tools, which they currently aren't doing.

    The only point you do have is that there might be companies that do have acces but are still familiarizing themselves with TSW. However, we do know from for example TSG that they have acces and are familiarizing themselves, while they haven't released content yet. And yet you claim 'TSW has many more third-party providers who are currently still familiarizing themselves with the TSW or doing contract work for DTG', while having no way of knowing how many there arem currently we only know AP and Wagonz are supplying sounds and research, but no more.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
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  5. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    And again also not true, as Rush hour will feature the first american passenger route for TSW 2.
     
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  6. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you're right, there are some exceptions (though Scotland is still UK for the moment, and therefore not a mew country entirely), I'll mention that in the original post.

    Yes, Dresden - Riesa's many branches are something new, and I'm definetely looking forward to it. However, it's still an electrified mainline with the same locos and EMU's we already have, so it's far from being as renewing as it can.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
  7. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I know, perhaps I was generalising a little too much. Changed it now to mention the exceptions. :)
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
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  8. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I agree entirely with you on that. Interesting to hear not only ChrisTrains has experienced such issues.

    And yes, 3rd parties are really dependant on DTG, and maybe some changes should be made there too, but I currently have no good ideas for those.
     
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  9. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I would prefer to develop the available options (although Poland is missing :) ), but such considerations have already been carried out by DTG. Players expect variety /o\
     
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  10. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Personally I also wouldn't have an issue with more of the current content if we also have some more vatiety, as that is what keeps me coming back.
     
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  11. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    The third party developers can get the development tools if they want. Where is the problem now? Epic Games has to make the UE4 easier, not DTG

    When did ChrisTrain write to DTG? I mean, Trainsimcz was rejected because Trainsimcz only showed what he modded with the TSW - nothing of their own. But I don't know 100%.
     
  12. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I don' know what you're basing your assumption that DTG is already providing developement tools from.

    ChrisTrains contacted DTG a while back.

    Also, if you don't know '100 %', it might be better to rephrase what you're saying from absulute fact to assumptions and speculations.
     
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  13. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    You miss there a few things:
    • As it seems, not every third party dev (or someone who claims to be one) can get the editor.
    • Learning how the editor works probably takes a very long time! And DTG has to decide: do they want to invest so much time helping the new 3rd party dev with the tool, while making hardly any profit from that? It seems like doing 2nd party development first could be the best way to someday be become a 3rd party dev. That's why I also think that AP could also soom be listed in the roadmap as 3rd party dev. Could be. Who knows?
    • The Epic Games UE4 is just half the magic. The other half is the DTG made Simugraph which is - i think - based on UE4. So infact it isn't just Epic's UE4 that's the proplem. Learning how the Simugraph works is a whole other story. Look at Rivet when they made this weird mistake so the coaches derailed most of the time. And they made this mistake although it was their 3rd loco they built for TSW. For most of the players it's just an easy "Why don't they just....". But the reality is very complex. There is no 'just'.
     
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  14. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    The development tools are included in the TSW Editor. I don't know what you want to achieve with this thread?

    DTG will definitely not release the editor for everyone and then have to give tons of support. That is unrealistic if you demand that DTG should release the editor for everyone without restrictions


    There are also third-party developers from TS who have had the TSW Editor since 2018, but have never produced anything of their own and are now participating in DTG at Dresden Riesa for the first time... Where is the Problem?

    Who says, for example, 3DZug doesn't have the editor? 3DZug has already said something in that direction...
     
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  15. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    First of all, yes developement tools are of course included in the editor, what else would be the point? But as no editor is available (except for a select few 3rd parties), neither are the developement tools. Perhaps you are confusing TS and TSW as TS does have a more in-depth editor available.

    And no, I'm not saying that TSW should release it to everyone and give unlimited amounts of support. I'm saying they should communicate more and better with (potential) 3rd parties instead of simply refusing after 3 weeks of silence. It would of course be a disaster for licensing of they actually allowed everyond to make content without having requirements first.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
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  16. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    You forgot Switzerland this is also a new tsw2 added recently country.No matter what anyone thinks about the Arosa-Chur route it doesn't mean it should left out.
     
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  17. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I just didn't mention that as it isn't a DTG route, but a Rivet one.
     
  18. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    It is available, but not for everyone. As a good 3D model maker, however, it is not unlikely that you will get the TSW Editor...

    Why are you only now saying that DTG should improve communication between third-party developers and DTG? You are trying to tell lies to the community by claiming that DTG prohibits 3rd party developers from creating content for TSW. This is a lie from front to back.
     
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  19. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Again, in what are you basing every good 3D modeller can get acces? Also you're cleverly ommiting the part of that sentence whefe I say some 3rd parties do have acces, just not a lot of them.

    Also, I know from potential 3rd party developers (like ChrisTrains) that DTG does prohibit them from creating content, so please don't call me a liar about that.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
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  20. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    You are talking about ALL third party developers in your post. This is actually a lie that DTG prohibits ALL third party developers.


    There are people who do not work at DTG, but who wrote in another forum in 2018 that they were experimenting with the TSW Editor...
     
  21. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    True but the OP been rambling on here about lack of 3rd party developers and lack of other countries.Well Rivet Games is a 3rd party developer and Switzerland another new country,and they should be reminded of this.Plus just because Arosa-Chur wasn't made by dovetail games doesn't mean it doesn't count it was made for tsw2 after all.
     
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  22. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I'm just saying that more 3rd party developers are a good thing, and Rivet introducing Switzerland is a good example of that which I alread mentioned in my original post.
     
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  23. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Nowhere do I say 'all', so quit it.
     
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  24. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    DTG is supposed to improve the communication between third party developers and DTG - there is nothing more to say.

    Just because DTG isn't responding doesn't mean DTG won't allow it. That means that the third party department at DTG is bad.

    jolojonasgames

    In your first post you wrote that DTG did not respond to ChrisTrains. a few posts later you write that DTG forbids it. So what is it now?


    Maybe DTG has already answered, but ChrisTrains doesn't want to say it ...
     
  25. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    DTG didn't respond to Christrains. Because ChrisTrains would need DTG's permission and tools and publishing they're also prohibiting him from creating content.

    Therefore it's both.

    You're constantly changing what you're saying, twisting my words and creating false dillemas, and I would prefer it if you didn't.
     
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  26. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Despite the pedants the OP is fundamentally right.
    The game desperately needs more variety.
    There’s a limited number of routes Dtg can build each year, so outside input is a basic necessity.

    I didn’t even look at the latest German caterpillar red route.
    Have all the others and unless it was a spectacular improvement it had little to recommend it.
    And what do we see? Another looming on the horizon. Enough already.

    I want choice when I log on.
     
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  27. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    Are you talking about the ChrisTrains statement from 2018? I hope not and that your information from 2021 ...

    No, you pretend that DTG is fundamentally forbidding third-party developers from creating content for TSW, which is wrong.
    In your first post, make it clear that DTG should improve communication with the third-party provider department, and don't pretend that DTG does not generally allow third-party developers to create content.

    If DTG doesn't respond, it doesn't mean DTG won't allow it.
     
  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    National variety: Scotland is part of the UK, its railroads are regulated by the same ministry in London, and the Cathcart experience is fundamentally no different from, say, ECW. Canada is another country on the political map, true; but from a railroading perspective it's just like the USA with more snow. The only break in the pattern to date is LGV.

    My only quibble with the OP is that the US has had passenger routes by DTG for a long time: NEC I, Peninsula Corridor, Long Island Railroad.
     
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  29. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    wait.. who??
     
  30. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    I don't think DTG is generally prohibiting 3rd party developers. It, by all I've read, seems to be more a 'terms of conditions' thing (licensing, .producing for PC and console, distributing via steam, Xbox and Playstation- Store...). With TSW, DTG chose a more 'mainstream' or 'professional' way to work, and abandon some kind of 'independant', 'underground' or 'hobby' developing. That may include good and bad things, which we couldn't know without any further internal information. A 3rd Party, that will accept this terms of condition won't be prohibited by DTG to build a route. There was a post from Matt somewhere in this forum, why british heros Armstrong Powerhouse don't produce TSW-content. Otherwise, if AP would change there mind and decide to create TSW-content according to the terms of condition, as they are still in contact with DTG, it won't be that hard for them, to get the editor, I guess.

    There seems to be some more people, who are working behind the scenes on TSW-stuff, as contract-workers, like this guy from the Riesa-Dresden-article, there are rumors, that there has been a 2nd party working on the Clinchfield F7, maybe at one point these guys have grown some interest in creating 'own' TSW-stuff. So, I think it's not a general prohibition of 3rd parties, it's a matter of 'How' they want to produce, release and distribute their stuff, that causes the prohibition.
     
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  31. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Answer No. 1: developing for TSW isn't as profitable as for TS. It takes a fraction as much work (= money) to develop a loco or route for TS, but it sells for the same price.
     
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  32. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly this is why it's needed because some of these third-party developers have done German and Austrian routes for sister game train simulator 21 and are worthy of returning to train simulator world 2. One of those is Arlbergbahn made by RSSLO or the Rollbahn & Moselle Valley by Aerosoft.
     
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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I saw recently that DTG have looked for a 3rd party support engineer, so hopefully the situation will chage.

    Don't know (or care) why they haven't responded to the person mentioned, but Matt and Sam have said repeatedly on streams that they use 2nd and 3rd party companies, and also have contractual arrangements for other things (like sounds from AP and even looked at he weather mod that's been touted on this site)

    Personally my only hope for 3rd party devs is that we don't get the mess we have with TSx with dozens of websites, people breaking their own scenarios over time etc etc
     
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  34. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Apologies for Dutch language, but apparently certain 3rd party developers have difficulties getting started developing content for TSW, and it sounds like DTG could do better to help them getting started...

    upload_2021-6-2_12-12-12.png
     
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  35. Yoinkermcskoinker

    Yoinkermcskoinker Well-Known Member

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    Third parties would definitely be beneficial, like have you seen the Armstrong powerhouse comment sections? You couldn’t scroll through that for a second without seeing a comment about buying the dlc, as opposed to “ill buy it when it’s on sale”
     
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  36. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. Although Scotland and Canada are technically seperate countries*, they use the same trains, have the same signalling and safety systems, and have very similar landscape and architecture as their "big 3" counterparts (UK/England* and USA). Therefor these two countries barely feel like offering much variety.

    * Although I have always assumed UK being one country and Scotland/England being part of it, it seems that technically these are also individual countries. To make things easier... a country within a country...
     
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  37. Yoinkermcskoinker

    Yoinkermcskoinker Well-Known Member

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    The UK is a union of 4 separate countries (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)
     
  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    TRANSLATION :

    MARK - All very interesting to watch, just a shame it's exclusive to train simulator. How cool would it be to have some dutch equipment in train sim world too

    CHRIS - the problem is that there is no support for independent developers in TSW. There is no editor and there are no tools. That's why I can't place my trains in this game

    MARK - oh that's very unfortunate. Is there nothing to arrange through a collaboration with, for example, rivet or skyhook

    CHRIS - there was a possibility to work with rivet but dovetail doesn't let that because dovetail has to work directly with rivet (because there really are no tools, rivet creates the models but then they have to be sent to dovetail to put in the game)
     
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  39. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Problem is that AP regularly break their own scenarios by enforcing you to buy their latest items (not included in the pack itself), which doesn't fit with how DLC in TSW2 work (where everything should work out of the box or allow for substitution rather than giving you an error)

    AP works well within TSC because there's loads of people making stuff for TSC and nobody really cares if it breaks (as in they don't go back and fix it). In TSW everything gets fixed or looked at (eventually) which is not how AP work
     
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  40. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom

    Apparently the UK is also a country. Just to make things confusing...

    Thing is, TSW uses the UK flag, not the English or Scottish flag. So should we consider England and Scotland to be seperate countries when talking about TSW? :P
     
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  41. Yoinkermcskoinker

    Yoinkermcskoinker Well-Known Member

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    that says sovereign state, not country

    I consider them different countries anyway, but as long as nobody calls Scotland England then I’ll be happy
     
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  42. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I'm not gonna argue with someone from the UK, who probably knows better about their country than I do. All I know it's pretty confusing. I see wikipedia mentions it that it is a "soveriegn country", but the link underneath those two words link to the article of "sovereign state". I'm not gonna go into details, I wouldn't even know the difference between a country, a state or a nation. All I ever learned during my education was the UK was a country. Either way, it's all pretty confusing. :P

    Yeah that sounds fine to me. Wether they're countries or regions or whatever, they're definately not the same. Even though, for railway operations, they do share quite a lot of similarities, which means that adding a Scottish route, doesn't really add more variety. Just like Canadese railway operations share quite a lot of similarities with American railway operations.

    We could really use some more variety in railway operations in TSW, by adding considerably more countries to the mix. And providing 3rd party developers with the help they need, could really help with getting more countries.

    (Which is partly why I'd hate to see Rivet developing UK routes. I'd rather have them develop Swiss content, as we'll be getting enough UK content made by DTG, while DTG is unlikely to developing anything Swiss...)
     
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  43. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry but I don't think this is true, there are lots of dev tools in evidence on Rivet's own Youtube page.



    As a lot of this thread seems to be based on the words of Chris then it might all be built on rather dodgy information...
     
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  44. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    dev tools that Rivet has licenses for.

    Why would Chris lie or make up anything? He won't gain anything with it. No matter where the problem lies or who's fault it may be, it does sound like he could use a tad more help from DTG to get started. I wouldn't be surprised if there'd be more 3rd parties running into the same problems as Chris do. After all, the number of third parties for TSW is rather limited.
     
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  45. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    There are loads of UE support channels out there, even putting aside the UE extensions DTG have built themselves...
     
  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    In essence it's all geo-political nonsense regarding who wants to be in charge of what and how people see "their nationality"
    Either way, in the end it comes down to money, who has it, who pays what for what, and of course who feels that they've been slighted in the past for not getting money for something they thought they owned (even if they didn't)

    But because it's based on perception you're always going to get a lot of difference of opinion depending on who you talk to and when
     
  47. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    From the helpful translation of the source material above... It sounds very much like Chris wants a public editor to do his own thing as an independent developer rather than working with DTG as a third party developer, so essentially there are two different conversations going on (a third if you include the political Scottish stuff that is invading every thread). Third party developers and having a public editor to do your own thing are two different issues. Chris also seems to reference Rivet making content as a second party for Dovetail, which is what happened before Rivet started making their own DLC. That’s a third situation and separate from actual third party development. There are definitely wrong ends of sticks occurring here somewhere.
     
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