“We’re not directly doing anymore active development in terms of steam but obviously we’re welcoming 3rd parties and we support 3rd parties that create steam related content.” Sounds like a nail in the coffin to me.
I think the problem is one of effort vs reward. DTG, as far as I'm aware, hasn't shown any signs of being willing to pay third-party devs to work on the core, or even give them access to it. Also, Caledonia Works at least has absolutely no interest in doing TSW content because they want to be their own boss, but frankly they're easily the worst third-party steam dev for TSC so I don't consider that a great loss.
Unless they change the core, there's really no point in third parties coming on board if they end up with the same cartoon physics and sound due to Simugraph limitations. Welcome to Train Sim World. the World of one handled EMU simulation. And I was just coming round to getting back into the game as well.
Hello one and all and welcome to the new Train Sim train, now that we're not getting any new steam locos and/or fixes, I think anyone can drive this thing.
Whether or not DTG plans to make any steam content in the future, it seems clear it is going to be a long time, if ever that the current steam physics are going to be fixed and other issues like the lack of AI steam sounds are also not going to be fixed. I am very disappointed, SOS still has a mediocre timetable which doesn't represent the timetable as it would have been. After all the fanfare of SOS and the very interesting lead up to its release, getting the community involved etc, it is very disappointing that this route appears to have been abandoned. PFR is having the class 104 add-on (something I am very much looking forward to) however steam will still be in the same state and as I pointed out in another thread, when you pass steam engine working hard with its freight or passenger train, it will be near silent. Is this really the immersion and realism which DTG are striving for?! It does sound like some third party developers might be interested in making steam content, personally I hope one of them will make some DLC for SOS. Also, hopefully some will create stock with routes too so we aren't stuck with the two routes plus WSR.
I agree with all of this. For all the 3rd party developers with an interest in steam reading this thread, please please please get into developing steam content for TSW. Hopefully, you can see from this thread that many people are very interested in Steam and still and looking for you to get involved now, knowing Core Steam will likely not progress any further. We are now reliant on you!
It's incredibly frustrating that they don't seem to take Steam content seriously. Really not impressed and that's putting it lightly. Third parties shouldn't have to come in and fix the mess that they made.
It seems strange as I am sure when the debate was ongoing as to whether BR blue sold, I am sure I saw a quote suggesting that DTG had said (or it might have been someone from DTG) that steam did sell well. Unless I am imagining it. I enjoy driving all trains, including the modern stuff, have just had a nice run on the Cross City line. But for me variety is important, we have plenty of that in TSC, TSW seemed to be getting a reasonable variety too. However if DTG are going to concentrate on modern operations that is disappointing. Third parties might plug some of the gaps but not all. Also, there is a lack of "historic" German, USA and other countries routes so unless some third parties get involved, will we ever see German steam engines for example?
As far as Caledonia Works is concerned I don't really get the hate - the modelling and texturing seems very good to me and the physics have improved quite a bit. Certainly not to the level of BMG or VW (although the latter's steam locomotives love to make TS run terribly, while BMG's trains run fine), but not bad by any means. But when it comes to DTG I think the choice they have is very simple - let someone figure it out, or don't have any good steam locomotives in TSW. While the choice I'd make is clear, DTG do seem to make bemusing choices frequently. Review numbers are usually a good sign of sales numbers (in a proportional sense), and SOS' review numbers are very high.
Also on the flipside Peak Forest has a really low review count of 25 (on the TSW3 page at least), versus the usual average, which is usually around 60, and SoS' roughly 120+ reviews. Obviously not a confirmation by any means, but it does support the claims SoS & Peak Forest did great and poorly respectively.
I also think PFR suffered from it's strange start and end points. I suspect that is correct, SOS seemed very popular. It seems ironic then that PFR is getting a stock pack, yet SOS has had no additions! Agreed, I have loads of CW engines and find them very well modelled with good sounds. Plus he has created lots of less glamourous or more unusual engines which other developers probably wouldn't touch. I would love to see him make some content for TSW, but I am certain that won't happen.
Agreed, the poor timetable and lack of diesels likely didn't help either. I know these held me off from buying it with any urgency.
That probably contributed too. As one of my friends put it (albeit not for this route in particular) 'what it represents is of no interest whatsoever'.
Manual firing is certainly rearing its head right about now. It went from coming soon™ to "we're taking our time to get it right" to radio silence to “we’re not directly doing anymore active development in terms of steam". All of the Spirit of Steam hype back then certainly seems like much ado about nothing now. I remember that as well. Probably in relation to SoS, which I wager sold well with the big marketing campaign that accompanied it. PFR possibly not selling well comes as no surprise with issues carried over from SoS in addition to the new problems (4F, diesels, timetable, ...). In the end, I feel that DTG should at least finish what they started and implement manual firing as well as the needed physics improvements. I don't see how 3rd parties are expected to work with the half-baked core work DTG did. Do DTG expect them to accept the core's shortcomings? Do DTG expect 3rd parties to fix the core for them? I certainly hope that 3rd parties will rescue steam from the virtual cutting torch, but I really struggle to see just how that's supposed to work.
This what it boils down to really. Spirit of Steam was supposed to be DTG’s chance to bring in steam locomotives and really impress people. They should’ve been reaching for the highest possible quality bar with this important release, if the devs needed more time for it, they should’ve been given that time. We all know how that ended… Along comes Peak Forest, route scenery is a big step up from Spirit of Steam. Problem is, the route is already damaged by the reputation of its predecessor route. DTG confirm that minimal work has been done on steam core, manual firing is still a pipe dream, but they’re working on it! Peak Forest releases, it under performs. Someone somewhere in DTG seems to take from that “Steam locomotives don’t sell, let’s cut our losses” which is totally out of touch with the situation. The realisation should’ve been “Our steam locomotives aren’t meeting quality standards, it’s affecting the sales of our products. Let’s do our best to improve the situation and bring steam traction up to the quality that we originally promised” Fast forward to now, they’ve released Flying Scotsman because the locomotive’s reputation alone will be bound to rake in some easy cash among the more casual player base. Now that DTG has cashed in on Flying Scotsman’s Centenary and popularity, they’re dropping steam development in favour of more generic modern era trains and routes. In that same move, they’ve caused TSW to no longer be the definitive, all purpose, Train Simulator. If they want to restore that, then something needs to happen to bring steam development back into play.
TBH the writing was on the wall when SoS didn’t get any follow up with further loco and stock packs and a better timetable. Sad to say but it does look despite all the hype, that steam in TSW really was done entirely to appease Paul Jackson’s desire to recreate his youth at Crewe station and once he retired and out the way, it was okay folks relax and forget about the pesky kettles. Get it good enough that PJ goes “Oooo” and “Ahhh” when he watches it on the big 65” demo screen, then breathe a sigh of relief when he smiles, turns round and walks out the door. PFR suffered entirely from being a route from nowhere to nowhere, despite the protestations it should at least have gone to Derby which were ignored and stonewalled by DTG every step of the way. It didn’t help that the 4F wasn’t great for physics either and most of its work on the route was as a shunting engine, little opportunity to thrash it on the main line. It should have been layered on to SoS from the outset and it shouldn’t have taken an individual working generously in their spare time to bring an official layer to the WSR. Not naming individuals but it does to me indicate something really rotten at the core (no pun intended) in the whole production and development of TSW. There seems to be a lack of confidence and dare I say it competency, so rather than see sorting steam out both in terms of its core and some new content, they would rather slink off and abandon it. What sort of pride in the job does that represent? Again nothing personal against individuals on the coal face many of whom work hard and are probably equally frustrated at what looks to be an executive or higher level decision. However it reaffirms to paradigm of the DTG Flywheel and that whatever they release, don’t have any expectations it will get fixed, improved or enhanced. Steam traction in the game now epitomises that fire and forget policy, giving your customers a big middle finger along the way. Edit: Would suggest if this is now official policy a stickied item or banner needs to be placed at the top of the Suggestions Forum to say no more suggestions for steam routes or traction.
So basically... "We botched it the first time, didn't fix it, botched it the second time, nobody buys it... here's Flying Scotsman and ádios." In my language we have a saying about false promises that they "disappear like steam over a pot" - I'd say that's fitting. Anyway I hope Ty2 shows proper business in SR.
Well, i can say goodbye to american super power articluated steam engines now. Such a shame, such a loss.
It's a bit sad we didn't at least also have one american and one german steam loco, just to complete the big three in regard of steam.
The problem with Steam ties directly into the core issue with TSW, DTG just don’t want to spend any extended length of time with development. Anything that stops them from churning out chopped off routes on their usual schedule gets the axe. It’s an issue that’s only getting worse the longer TSW goes on, so many things left unfinished or absent. The funny thing about PFR is that it had the opportunity to do so well if they’d have just included diesels from the get go. Its nice to see Simtrack coming along with the 104, but honestly I don’t expect it to do much good for PFR, the time has come & gone to get a mass of people on board for it. All hopes for steam seem to be on the shoulders of third parties, but I doubt they’d use what DTG have built for it, they’d probably need to start from scratch.
Even though I knew it already, it's still an extraordinarily sad and depressing state of affairs. How little commitment must there be to products beyond the next six weeks that DTG have decided to cut off over a century of railway history. Couldn't even be bothered to issue a patch to fix what is already *known to be wrong* - the reverser linkage ratios on the Jubilee and 8F, the difference in starting fire temperature states between the aforementioned and the 4F, the ridiculous safety valve situation. All of these should have been easily fixable and a patch issued but we haven't even had that (and that's not to beat on Ed who I'm sure could do these fixes and is a star - it's whoever decides the priority of work and decides what to send into the patches). Sorry to say but whoever is guiding the direction of TSW at the moment (and thanks to the black box of DTG we have no idea who that is) probably needs to stop and have a good think as to whether they're the right person for the job. Not only abandoning steam but also the ludicrous situation with the features that were advertised at TSW4 launch as 'coming soon' - formation designer, being able to cook with the PC Editor, the new Koln-Aachen timetable, not to mention the uninspired and boring first-party route choices for (at least) UK content. I wonder if said direction-givers are simply not a fan of steam content (or indeed making promises they can keep)? TSW is in a very poor place right now. I enjoy parts of the game still, and free roam and volumetric fog really were good launch features for TSW4, but I can't see a lot of hope in the future right now other than the odd product from the more talented third parties (SimTrack, JustTrains, TSG). It shouldn't be like this, frankly. There's so much more opportunity being left on the table.
...which is so obvious on the WSR goods trains. You can either stick the cut-off in the 40-50s and have the 4F work while you kill the kettle of the 8F/Jubilee or stick it in the 20s and have the 4F essentially do nothing but keep the 8F/Jubilee alive. I don't understand why they didn't at least bring both to one standard (I mean, I do, but they shouldn't have left them like this). This. Absolutely and wholeheartedly. TSW was my first serious contact with driving simulated steam locos (never did figure them out back in my MSTS days) and it's a great shame that DTG are obviously planning on just abandoning them. Driving steam locos is such an engaging, immersive task compared to modern traction and TSW with the freedom of being on foot and the eye-candy graphics was in a unique position to deliver an amazing experience once the necessary improvements were made. It really does seem like they tried it once, turned out to be too much work and they just cut their losses. It reminds me of the time Matt asked why people might see TSW as a game and not a simulator - situations like these are why. Abandoned content in a state of disrepair and now not even the promise of future routes improving things.
Very disappointed to hear that all of the promises for features and fixes made by DTG to sell copies of SOS and PFR have seemingly been abandoned now they have our money. When the company makes promises for features and fixes and then quietly tries to sweep them under the rug its a bit of a kick in the teeth for all of the paying customers.
Very possibly! Sometimes DTG policy on routes brings to mind a dog chasing its own tail. They choose inappropriate starting points to cut down development time (to keep costs down), then wonder why the route didn’t sell well. D’uh! They do the same thing recycling stock; repaint the existing class whatever instead of building a new loco/unit (to keep costs down), and surprise, surprise, the DLC didn’t sell as well as expected. Textbook false economies.
DTG have always said, don't like it then no one is forcing you to buy it. The problem being, people may like the route and setting but the execution kills it. Its not what DTG are making but how they are making it that really needs to be looked at.
Honestly it’s an utterly ridiculous phrase that doesn’t make sense. They apply it to things which are done incorrectly. DTG need to take their own medicine & do it right, then we will buy it.
DTG very quiet on the points of view being put forward in this thread. So here's a valedictory thought to put in their pipe and smoke it... 13 mile Goblin Line with one handle modern EMU, £24.99 (unless they whack it out at full price) zero chance of Day One purchase. In a sale ,if then. Fairford or Princetown Branch with a Pannier Tank and/or a 22xx 0-6-0 (reasonable physics and sound) and some GWR coaching stock, £29.99 - Day One purchase if not a preorder. Please revisit this crazy decision.
It's absolutely bonkers beyond belief that they launched steam with Crewe-Liverpool and not something like this. Even a GWR loco pack for WSR would have been more appropriate.
DTG Matt as executive producer for TSW, please can we get some honest answers as to why exactly DTG are no longer actively working on steam anymore? People might be better understanding with the situation with explaining the reasons behind the decision instead of just saying out the blue "yeah just to let you know we're no longer working on steam anymore" just from this thread alone you can see there is a lot of people in the community (including myself) who wish to see more steam routes/locos and to see things improved and working correctly.
Actually, I am seeing this as a positive development - "We can't get a good handle on steam, so we are planning to outsource it to people who know what they are doing." There are definitely steam developers for TSC who do a great job, and using one or more of them to take over the steam side of TSW could be a very, very positive development (think Just Trains taking over the abandoned BR Blue niche).
That may well be the case but the steam part of the game core needs fixing and improving instead of just adding new DLC, I highly doubt DTG would let 3rd parties tinker with the core, I'd be very surprised if they did though.
The problem is that so far there doesn't appear to be anyone willing to work on steam content for TSW. And that still leaves the existing steam content in an unfinished state...
There is a reason steam is effectively being abandoned by DTG. It mustn’t be selling well enough. You never kill a cash cow purposely.
What's disappointing is the fact that SimuGraph was touted by DTG as the last word in rail simulation; any traction unit can be simulated to a precise degree they said, provided the technical characteristics of the various components are correctly input. Everything apparently except steam traction, for which they have now thrown in the towel. Punters are angry because they feel let down (hence this thread) and no visible solution in sight.
As already said earlier in the thread, the reasons it's not selling are entirely DTG's own making. Poor implementation of sound, physics and effects to start with. No follow on development for SoS. Poor choice of end points on PFR and no Buxton shuttle. The dire state of Flying Scotsman which has the physics integrity of a Hornby wind up clockwork loco. All entirely within their own purview to resolve and fix. I mean, SoS took over a year for the spurious AI SPAD's to get fixed, when someone should have had the fire lit under them for allowing the route to release with that issue in the first place.
Concur that I only got SoS as part of a bundle and didn't get PF until recently, heavily discounted, because of the reports of multiple issues with steam simulation and problems like the SPADs. Otherwise, when steam was first announced, I was like a kid again, thinking yes, this is what I've been waiting for. But if you do a poor job of it, and already have a reputation for not following up on fixing some serious issues, my enthusiasm plummits and I'm not buying it. That's why it hasn't sold, I'm fairly sure, not because there isn't an audience.
Steam has clearly gone on the ‘too hard’ pile, how can a train simulator not have properly functioning steam locos? The confirmation on the stream by Alex was a real disappointment and not what steam was sold on/promised; we’ve all been expecting some improvements along the way over the many, many months (or is it years?) since release of SOS, but it seems its got thrown to the back of the cupboard. I was surprised Matt didn’t offer some comment on the stream. Who’s pulling the strings at DTG, the bean counters who cant see past the bottom line, the marketing team who dont care how it goes as long as it’s out the door, or just someone who believes ‘another MU on a route between two intermediate points’ will do, as its less bother and quicker to knock out. Would any 3rd parties want to pick up doing a steam route in steam’s current unsorted state? One wonders.
I think the only way it could be made to work would be if DTG approached Iron Kettle Simulations with a two-part contract. Part 1, IKS would be a second-party contractor, hired to rework the core steam simulation from the ground up, and modify the four existing steam locos to run on the new code. Part 2 would be the third-party contract, an agreement to publish IKS's next X steam routes/locos, on presumably better terms than the usual 3P arrangement.
Only DTG know their way around TSW's core. Any potential second/third party collaborator would need to be educated in navigating Simugraph and TSW's core before they start working on steam, so it would require a lot of co-ordination between DTG and the other party.
I am curious to know, the alleged 3rd parties interested in producing steam era content, they wanted to get involved before or after the information about steam being dropped by the game developer? During the DTG direct stream they haven't forgot to talk about their survey and how it matters and they want to listen to the community... In the end, in a business things can flop. It is what it is. The level of maturity with which they communicate an important flop to their beloved customers is so low that it has no match in the dictionary. That's fine as well. Time will teach DTG.
Thing is TSW's base has no issue simulating BR diesels, they're arguably among the best UK content for the game even. Just Trains didn't need to fix the core on anything, most they did with the old stock was give everything they reused a new coat of paint and the 47 a lamp. I would say half the reason Blackpool's great is that between it, NTP, & TVL you have a solid variety of really well made locomotives to run along the route. Just Trains got to piggyback off the solid if somewhat dusty and abandoned core DTG had left behind, that isn't something any steam developer is gonna have the luxury of having.
Yeah, I thought I’d hold myself back a bit when saying that. I can’t even imagine how messy the steam core looks! I do genuinely have a flicker of hope there’s someone out there who’s willing to fix DTG’s mess, and support the development of future steam locomotives and routes. The whole situation just leaves a really bitter taste.
It's a shame we were told we were getting a manual fireman shortly after release and it never came about.
