They haven't actually said they're not stopping development on steam traction altogether, only that there is nothing currently on their roadmap right now. Alex also said in the same post that third parties are also interested in developing steam locomotives for TSW but talks are in early stages. They've definitely got to sort out those core physics before they think about releasing anymore new steam content though, even if it means bringing these interested third parties in to assist them in doing it properly.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see a third party sort out the core to be able to get their steam dlc out tbh, especially the way DTG prioritises essential updates and fixes.
I do remember before anything steam related was released for TSW that the devs insisted that “we want to make sure we get it right” and that was repeated often when they talked of their intentions and progress for steam in TSW and how it would be implemented and have the necessary controls for the players. Years after the start of development of steam they have not got it right and as we see from this thread they aren’t even trying let alone ‘making sure’ any more. Luckily for those players who have TSC and that obviously doesn’t include console players like myself there is a place they can go and get a fix of fairly realistic steam operations. If someone outside of DTG takes on the task of developing the core aspects of steam as well as content I hope they fare better than DTG have and we TSW players can get much better steam loco driving in the not too distant future.
I am most interested in the DR BR 52 locomotive. It was used on the East German railways for almost the entire period from the war to the reunification of Germany. Eastern Germany has a lot of interesting and colorful rolling stock that I'm looking forward to.
You may be on to something here. They lie about all sorts of random things, so maybe they'll just up and announce someday "just kidding, we were working on steam all along"
Which means they're not developing anything steam-related. The problem is, what third party has the experience and skills to work on the core?
Yes, they aren't right now. The general worry in this thread though is that they've given up on steam altogether, different context. As for third parties with the skill to do steam justice. There's a few, Bossman Games, Victory Works and Caledonia Works are the most notable ones for UK steam locomotives. I was quite surprised that DTG got their Jubilee and 8F models from Bossman Games, but never actually got them on board to help develop steam in the first place. If TSW steamers had the functionality and physics of BMG steamers, this thread would never had needed to exist in the first place
Well it's up to bossman games to join tsw who probably weren't interested other than to help record sounds and such. Dtg can't force them. Another issue is that bossman games had no experience with tsw and it takes new devs a really long time to learn unreal engine so there's that too. Dtg were the ones working on the project and know unreal
Not to mention the minefield it opens having external third parties potentially making code changes that could break something else. No, core changes to steam are only going to come from DTG's own coder(s). It's possible a really clever third party could manipulate Simugraph to produce better results but at the end of the day, only so much that will achieve.
If they're in no rush to finish basic aspects of steam simulation, their commitment to doing it at all is definitely in question. Those studios have experience developing third-party steam content for TSC via Lua scripting. They do not have experience working on the core code of an Unreal Engine game.
None of the third party developers for TSW had Unreal experience before working for TSW, and before Euro Fishing DTG didn't either, so that's a null argument.
Not really. None of the TSW third parties have experience working on the core and obviously DTG could learn as it made its own game.
non had experience in making locos and routes for TSW neither before they did and do, they could look into learning it (only if they wish to do so)
I doubt any of them are willing to spend the time and effort required to learn how to code Unreal Engine games, then spend the time and effort required to learn how TSW's core code works.
My prediction, or supposition, is that, if enough third parties show a clear interest and plan to bring enough new steam content to the sim, then DTG will invest the supplementary/requisite time and resources to enhancing the core side of steam.
probably not but it’s way more on time investment (= money) and not experience with programming why not.
If I were a third party, would I be interested in investing time and money into steam era trains and routes for TSW knowing that the fundamentals, the core, are broken and no one wants/knows to fix it? If I make routes as close as I can to perfection but the engines run in an unrealistic way, what kind of sales would I get? What would the players think of my products? They already have content like this in the game, why would they buy mine? Would I just take the hit image wise for something that it´s not under my control such as a core feature flaw? I obviously don´t know the entire situation but I would definitely ask myself these questions cause there is only so much one can do on a flawed skeleton. No matter how nice you paint a rotten tomato, inside it´s still a rotten tomato and it will tell eventually.
I think the answer to that would be to find a TP who would be willing as part of the arrangement to overhaul the steam mechanics from the ground up. Obviously this would mean someone with a track record like Victory or Bossman, but I think such a deal structured in two parts (both a SP and TP component) would be worth DTG's investment. Basically, they have to acknowledge that 1) steam is important, but 2) they can't get it sorted in-house. And if the contractor were offered a sweeteter ("For the next X months you will be the exclusive maker of steam DLC for TSW"), there might be a taker.
Nice Idea and it just may put DTG back on the so-called Steam Loco map, BUT, those are questions only they can answer, I don't see that happening any time soon. While what was redone in and on WSR, feels like Toss a Dog a Bone
In DTG's playbook, that roughly translates as: "You will be responsible for slaving away on all steam train content. So if it is broken or you don't make enough of it in the said time period, we'll tell the community that it's all your fault and is nothing to do with DTG." So not an really an offer most content creators would jump to accept.
Does it? Chances are steam content will be better in the hands of a third party, DTG would then only publish it.
I think the only issue is whether they could be enticed to do the needed improvement for it or not, apart from that they would likely do a very good job (anything is better than nothing which is DTG’s status quo as it stands on it)
I think that X would have be in very high double digits for any takers to be enticed by it at all, not many seem to release more than 1 or 2 DLC’s per 12 month's.
I suppose the best way to entice a third party is for them to be allowed to make any and all decisions relating to steam. I don't see that likely, though, DTG like to keep everything with TSW under wraps in some way or another for some reason.
: I'm Writing this as clarification, of what I feel I need to do: While what I state in my recent quoted post, may and or does sound like an off-handed jab at DTG in reference to WSR, I do stand by it, but in a derogatory way, and what I stated in the WSR update thread, I stand by that also, YES they the team of DEVs aka Liam did do a good job, things look good. the one steam scenario I ran was looking good everything ran smoothly. All in all, everything worked, but again it was done off the books ie; not paid to do the work, it was done because they wanted to and DTG was happy to let them work on their own time. -- But it also feels like they saw all the talk here and who knows where else, that many were and are not completely happy with the way Steam has been done up til now. The DEVs got together and said hey let us do something for the loyal base and got o work, and seeing that DTG laid zero salary and chose to do the FREE update/Re-Master Steam Gala 2023. -- Also for those with a Raildriver or anyone who would want to get one, it still does not work with the LMS Jubilee Crimson Festive edition. Just a side note...
In personal environment, things like this can happen. A friend, a family member can take over one's whatever it is and help make it better or break even when a difficult moment appears. This is how some great relationships are born. In a business, there are decisions that prevent this from happening. It rather dies than be given to a different party because it's bad for their image and it makes it look like admitting guilt and a failure which is not good for shares in the end. We were told by DTG that they are taking their sweet time with steam in order to make it right and we are where we are today. It's all a game of appeareances and nice words. There is no evolution from TSC in this area of the game which is what it was supposed to improve on. They talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
I got WSR given the steep sale on it, ok route, but man such a slow route really further highlights how simple the steamers are. They aren't great on Peak Forest or ECML, but the need to haul heavy freight and fast passenger trains meant you had to do something resembling steam management. Not realistic depiction of it by any means, but I did at least care about moving the cutoff to some extent. Here the speeds are so slow and the consists are so light that you basically have zero need to move your cutoff, really does make it feel like a diesel in steam clothing. Honestly makes me want to take out a actual diesel like the 40 or 31 out along it instead, or maybe even grab the Class 33 & 52.
WSR rework is an one time deal. There was a team meant to improve at least some parts of a route post release but they reallocated the resources so there is nobody to overhaul the longer routes. There are way higher chances for me to overtake Besos and Musk and become the richest person in the world than DTG reworking existing routes.
Yes, but that requires DTG being willing to pay someone for however long it takes for them to get to grips with TSW's core and someone who is capable of doing that being willing to accept what DTG's offering.
I think whichever developer "Fixes" steam and actually does it properly may be onto something in all honesty. Similarly the way we were told BR blue doesn't sell and JT blew everyones minds with BPO. DTG imo didn't have the care and attention to do it justice.
While exact sales figures aren't available, review numbers can give a rough indication of the proportion of sales between DLCs. Combining both the TSW3 and 4 version, Peak Forest has 29 reviews. Blackpool has 75 reviews. As to how many were actually sold I don't know, as I can't imagine how many times you'd need to multiply the review count to get the rough sales number for Steam, and then how much to multiply that by to account for all platforms. However I have no doubt that Blackpool Branches sold well, and certainly better than Peak Forest. However, we have also been lead to believe that Spirit of Steam did sell well, and combining all three of its versions we arrive at 172 reviews. The hype was real for that route.
I wasn't very encouraged by how Matt was speaking about PFR in dovetail direct. Talking about how if you're not convinced by the steam engines you can get some proper diesels on the route. And how steam has maybe challenged people? And so we can run it with diesels instead. Real shame that they had to leave the mess to a third party because I actually really love the route. I hope simtrack give us some running 4F services which again were alluded to but never materialised
People knew that when the brilliant Peak was released DTG STILL hadn’t fixed the steam physics and STILL haven’t - that will affect sales. By failing to address this or having a third party dev paid to do it they are cutting off their nose to spite their face, as sales will be lower on steam DLC as people know its not fixed. DTG then stating steam doesn’t sell as well is the most ridiculous market research data ever. Its like BMW leaving the front passenger seat out of the 1 Series and then complaining that no one wants to buy it !
Nothing on the Roadmap to give any assurance that further steam traction development hasn’t been put into hiatus. As said previously a Pannier and Hall pack with some GWR coaches and buffed physics would have gone perfectly with the WSR overhaul. Sadly looks like not to be.
LOL, yeah no, TSW has issues with tutorials, but I do actually think the ones for steam do a perfectly fine job explaining how to run them. And as far as it goes steam's easier to drive than anything with PZB enabled or even the Class 101. PZB really requires constant vigilance, and the 101 requires quick fingers and a good sense of timing to quickly get through gears and maintain the schedule. And considering they refer to the latter being similar to the 104 that's supposed to "solve" that problem that should be a tell they're way off base.
Reminiscent of the death of the "space sim" genre after Freespace 2 was a commercial flop, despite rave reviews in the gaming press. Nobody thought to examine why FS2's sales numbers were poor. It turned out that the publisher had neglected to do any significant marketing, so most potential customers didn't even know it existed! But because of that, it is a very rare studio which takes the risk of developing a "space sim" today. As for FS2 itself, it's still being actively developed (after the engine was open-sourced) and has a thriving mod community. Using the FSO engine, you can play both the FS1 and FS2 main campaigns with vastly upgraded graphics, a thoroughly remastered version of the Silent Threat add-on campaign for FS1, and literally dozens of high-quality non-canon campaigns, plus several "total conversions" set in different universes entirely. The quality of some of these works would give major studios such as Egosoft a run for their money.
Based on todays roadmap stream, its now been officially confirmed that DTG Steam development is now officially dead. Seems we will only ever see 3rd party work on this, if this ever happens. Can say again that I am extremely disappointed and will no longer be supporting TSW to the extent that I previously did.
Since DTG isn't doing it, it's up to the community to. I don't know if any TS steam developers are willing to jump on board - I suspect many have considered it but that's the furthest they went. To be honest if I was one of those developers I think I'd work with Dovetail to give it a shot. I am very interested in seeing good steam locos in TSW and so if DTG were to pay me £10.50 and sent me Matt Peddlesden's pink headphones I would take a look and work with the community to see what changes can be made to the steam simulation. As crazy as it sounds, this is a serious offer. The ball is in your court Dovetail.
They said "We are no longer working on Steam, or have any plans to work on steam." Just not in the 100% exact words.
Highly disappointing to hear that on the stream tonight. With this news, DTG no longer have the right to sell TSW as "the Evolution of Train Simulation", you need all types of traction to claim that, including steam locomotives. Basically, our only hope for proper steam physics now are these third parties which DTG implied tonight to be interested in making steam content. Question is, why would they be interested in making steamers using an incomplete and broken simulation? Surely DTG would have to make it worth their time and effort. If the game's going to fully lean in on majority of releases being modern electric releases, then TSW is going to stagnate extremely quickly.
Let's be honest here, and I mean totally honest, how many times have DTG said in the past that they have no plans currently for multiple popular requests or new versions of game while working on said requests or new game, so I wouldn't be surprised if they just don't want to make a song and dance about it.......
There's two ways of taking that though isn't there a) we have no intention of making steam content again or b) none of our current plans are steam content
