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Other Dtg Negativity

Discussion in 'Technical Reports' started by matjamca, Jun 19, 2020.

  1. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    Being relatively new to TSW 2020 and DTG, it is disheartening to see so much negativity about DTG and the communities view that not a lot of effort is being put in to the games?

    Has this always been the case? Or, is it something that started happening from a specific point in time?

    Why do you think DTG is not listening to its fans about features and bugs? The fans are the people DTG serve and if DTG can’t be bothered listening does it have a future?

    From a personal level and looking at this from the perspective of my job (I investigate energy complaints where a consumer and supplier cannot agree a resolution in order to make a fair and impartial decision), the single biggest breakdown of a consumer/business relationship is a clear lack of communication and a breakdown in quality, reliable service.

    Now energy suppliers are not train simulator developers by any stretch of the imagination, but the same principals exist. Treat your consumers as a number, rather than engaging with them and working to deliver what they want and need and things start to go badly wrong. Plenty of energy suppliers have gone bust as consumers turned their backs on them.

    Some of the comments I’m seeing in the forums, particularly around bugs, lack
    of quality content, people feeling ripped off etc are proving that a toxic mess is brewing within the fan base. You could argue the loyaler fans are always the more vocal - so I think it’s important that DTG really does double down on listening to its fans and to show that they care about the content they are producing and making their fans happy to spend lots of money.

    I hope DTG read this and take the points I’m making onboard. I know they say they want to work closer with the fans/community, but they really need to prove this. And maybe quite quickly - especially seeing as TSW2 is due soon and it’s causing quite a bit of upset in the community.
     
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  2. xpert2036

    xpert2036 Guest

    I
    I have only been on this forum for 2 months & it's been very toxic because of TSW2.They use the forums to annoy the people that love the game calling them fanboy's & DTG protecters.Some of the people that do this only use the forums to look at threads that harass DTG & only talk trash about them.DTG does make mistakes but only the people that are die hard fans of TS only care about the little glitches & expect everything to be free.
     
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  3. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    The expecting everything to be free business is really bizarre.
     
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  4. xpert2036

    xpert2036 Guest

    Only free things in games are horrible
     
  5. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    You make some very good points and you appear to have a very good insight into how many people are currently feeling.
    There are some that may have expectations but I think the majority of those who have voiced their disappointment with the current situation would have been more than happy to pay for new routes and even the new game engine itself, if their current DLC's had been compatible.

    I will now get my popcorn, sit back, watch and wait for the usual suspects to arrive, and begin accusing anyone who dare have a different opinion to them, question or disagree with anything DTG says or announces, of being toxic, talking trash or harassing them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  6. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I really liked your whole post, but I thought I would just extract the above bit and say that I think that the tension had built up a long time before TSW 2 was announced. The shocker with TSW 2 (for many), is that it represents even more bad news. It doesn't have to, but it does.

    DTG have an opportunity to start from a clean slate, and be transparent. But as we have seen in the last few days, even the freshest breath of fresh air soon turns stale, and begins to conform with the traditional DTG approach of vague deflection and bluster, followed by smoke and mirrors and then a tsunami of hype. They are not even prepared to explicitly state whether or not they will fix existing bugs in TSW 2020.

    After a while, people just get sick of it. But they still love trains, so many will continue to buy DTG's stuff.
     
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  7. Gabriel12499

    Gabriel12499 Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - despite warnings, user has failed to curb their use of inflammatory language]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2020
  8. xpert2036

    xpert2036 Guest

    DTG to be honest has dug there own grave I enjoy TSW but DTG is just digging there own grave because the editor & many other of the features.Also DTG protagonist has free of speech so I don't think he will delete the post.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2020
  9. SamBruce

    SamBruce New Member

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    As on today -
    Train Sim World - ABANDONED WITH BUGS
    Fishing Sim World - ABANDONED WITH BUGS
    Euro Fishing - ABANDONED WITH BUGS
    Flight Sim World - ABANDONED WITH BUGS

    New games -
    The Catch - replace fishing sim world

    Train Sim World 2 - replace Train Sim World
    [​IMG]

    This company is joke
     
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  10. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Certainly appears to be a pattern developing!
     
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  11. SamBruce

    SamBruce New Member

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    if ("make a game") then
    elseif ("make promises")
    else ("if fails, make a new game")
    end
    [​IMG]

    Typical DTG Loop
     
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  12. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    It does seem to be a worrying trend.
     
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  13. railway12

    railway12 Active Member

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    The Real DTG
    In kind of Python
    _________________________________________
    DTG.py

    Import DTG
    DTG.init()
    money=1000000
    reputation=100

    def file_bankruptcy():
    DTG.end()
    file=DTG.py
    file.close()

    def new_game():
    #make game
    money---=$€£
    #convince customers
    DTG.game.release()
    money+=$€£
    game = True

    While game = True:
    DTG.game.DLC.release()
    money+=$€£
    #Bugs reportet
    #Ignore reportet bugs
    #Community getting angry
    community angry = True
    IF community angry = True:
    reputation-=2
    pass
    ELIF money < 0:
    game = False
    new_game()
    ELIF money AND reputation < 0:
    file_bankruptcy()

    #run
    new_game()
    _________________________________________
    I've tried keeping it simple but I think that's a good example code. Of course there are more factors like loans, third parties, employees who love working for DTG putting in their effort and ehm the management... yes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
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  14. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    I don't expect TSW to be free, indeed I know it isn't free because I paid for it a few months ago, but neither did I expect to asked to pay for it twice or presumably more. Yeah- you know we've been promising steam loco's in TSW since day one? Well they're coming... in TSW3. Multiplayer? Guess what! That is what has my back up and I said so fairly calmly and rationally I hope and without presuming to speak for anyone other than myself though it seems I'm not alone.
    Certainly (again speaking only for myself though I doubt I'm alone in this) the way I budget there's a certain amount of money I spend on train simulation so if I get TSW2 that would be money that won't be spent on routes and other DLC- no extra income for Dovetail. Others will buy TSW2 for the routes but would have done that if it was released as TSW2021- again no gain. Some people will buy everything in sight but enough to off-set the ill will and lost income from users who don't want to be caught out again?
     
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  15. InspectorTiger

    InspectorTiger Active Member

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    If you could boil down all the complaints about DTG to a single phrase, it would be "over-promising and under-delivering".

    And there's some truth in that. The marketing copy is always something like "Take part in hundreds of fun activities on and around the railway!" and the corresponding reality is "Put up posters". Or "Drive hundreds of fascinating and varied services across a realistic rail network", and the reality is "Drive either a stopping or a non-stop service from Paddington to Reading and back."

    The under-delivery also extends to bugs. Every DLC has hundreds of bugs, most trivial, but many serious, and while occasionally some are fixed, perhaps months after release, the general attitude that comes across is something like "Well, we've got your money. What would be the incentive for us to fix bugs?"

    That said, the criticism of DTG in the forums is often overblown, and weakens its own case by being too bombastic. Some railfans also have a slightly unrealistic idea of what's possible or practical in computer simulations. ("My immersive experience was RUINED by the fact that passengers didn't have realistic, opening luggage. Also, I want a 300-mile fully-detailed route for £11.99, and I want it this week.")

    So what's the explanation? Are DTG simply evil? No doubt. Every morning MattP wakes up, twirls his moustache, and laughs maniacally to himself as he decides how best to criminally defraud stout-hearted railfans that particular day.

    But, thinking into a bit more deeply, we might wonder how it is that DTG and TSW exist at all. It's fair to say that train simulation is a tiny market. It's a niche of a niche. I don't often play flight simulators, but I know they exist. I never even knew train simulation was a thing until I saw a preview of TSW. So how is it possible that such a product is commercially viable at all? It's hard enough to make money selling even mass-market games, unless you have colossal resources to put into them.

    Without having seen the numbers, my best guess would be that TSW's business is desperately marginal. It may quite well be that from month to month, the options are along the lines of:

    1. Fix bugs in existing DLCs, go out of business.
    2. Release new DLC, keep the lights on for another month.

    I don't think anyone's rolling around in piles of cash; it's highly likely that everyone working at DTG could earn better money elsewhere, developing new levels for Candy Crush, or whatever, but chooses to work on something they're passionate about instead.

    I imagine there are tremendous pressures within the company to focus on revenue-generating activities, and equally strong pushback from those who want to put out more reliable, higher-quality products, with more variety, scope, and detail. That's quite normal in any business, and that argument goes back and forth all the time. What we see as consumers is the compromise result; it's not as good as some in the company would have wished, and it doesn't make as much money as others would have liked. But we have something. That's a great deal preferable to nothing.
     
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  16. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    You have hit the nail squarely on the head!

    The thing is how they choose to move forward with this but having chosen a third party engine, like Unreal, it appears to me that DTG have taken themselves down a path which is one way only and there's no turning back. So for them to continue making TSW compatible with the most current UE, I think there will be repeats of what we are seeing now every couple of years.
     
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  17. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    Is this a technical report?
     
  18. railway12

    railway12 Active Member

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    It's not a classic technical report. But i've tried keeping it kind of techy as it's there. Besides with the new forum structure it's not really easy where to post stuff. So yea it kind of fits.
     
  19. Stockton Rails

    Stockton Rails Well-Known Member

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    Wow, thumbs-up from me on this post. The phrase ‘voice of reason’ comes to mind here- acknowledging some of DTG’s shortcomings, but also acknowledging some of the forces at work inside the company that might be contributing to some of the train sim issues we have to deal with. That said, I hope we all see significant improvements in the coming Train Sim World 2 product vs, what we’ve had to live with in TSW 2020. I remain hopeful... and hope they do a much better job this time with the new features they’ve promised, as well as delivering a cleaner, as bug-free as possible product.

    Very insightful post... thank you for speaking for me and I’m sure for a lot of other folks in these forums.
     
  20. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    It depends how long the list of excuses grows. Most people (I suspect) would not want it to slide into....

    1a. Fix bugs in existing DLCs, go out of business.
    1b. Test for bugs in new DLCs, go out of business.
    1c. Knock up a manual for new DLCs, go out of business.
    1d. Make loco DLCs like the Class 52 work on more than one 25mph route, go out of business.
    1e. Make new DLC with slightly more than nearly zero content, go out of business.

    2. Release new untested, empty, broken, featureless, undocumented DLC.......... keep the lights on for another month.
     
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  21. TrainSim_Fan

    TrainSim_Fan Well-Known Member

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    The people themselves at DTG are fine and care about the products (Sam and Matt). But the effort and care often doesn't show through such as the M3, Class 20, LIRR HRR, GWE, Class 166, Class 43 and RSN. Your issue is valid and is bought up often will it change................ ............no.
     
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  22. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    They could have released the three new routes on TSW for a total of $90. Yet we are getting an updated version of the game engine, with adhesion physics and other upgrades. Scenario editor and livery editor and those three routes for $30 and a better foundation to build future dlc on. I can go play TSW and enjoy the routes I own now, things like getting stuck at a red light seem to always get fixed. If a bug isn’t constantly causing my game to crash or extremely hindering my experience then I technically have no right to complain. Am I going to get upset because a bridge is to low for the 204 and clips when I drive by, no I am not because it’s really something small that doesn’t impact by game what so ever. I know what I’m getting when paying $30 for a route on TSW and it’s always delivered what I expected. Your TSW library isn’t being replaced even if it isn’t in TSW2.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
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  23. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Active Member

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    The biggest thing working against all of us and for dtg is no real competition for them,leaving all of us stuck with whatever they decide to release to sell us,broken or bugged,as long as we foolishly still buy it.dtg will keep pumping it out.
     
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  24. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't agree more. The absence of competition lowers the need for good products, which TSW is not. Still enjoyable? Yes.
     
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  25. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    To be fair to DTG, it does seem to still be fixing issues with TSW 2020 and is trying to commit to be being more open.
     
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  26. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    On the other hand, the bug fix was issued by Rivet, but DTG apparently sat on it for a while. And as for being more open, they are actually telling us less because they are only answering yes to stuff already announced and no to everything else.
     
  27. SaddingtonPlush

    SaddingtonPlush Member

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    It's true there was considerable lag from Rivet giving DTG the patch and it becoming available. I suspect the delay was because the console platforms don't make it easy to push out patches, unless you're one of their exclusive developer stables. A patch goes into their queue for approval. I noticed that when DTG released the PC patch the PS4 users got it within the same 24 hour period. If DTG wanted the patch to be available for all users across all platforms at the same time, that might explain it.
     
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  28. edward.gregg

    edward.gregg New Member

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    DTG have the potential and with TSW they have improved the simulator environment from "TS2020 Classic" also with more accurate scenery. It has a fantastic future but for some reason operational accuracy has taken a dive since TS2020.

    Lets take British Railways (Not the company, but railway operations of this country) NTP/TVL/GWR where is the guard? You drive the train the guard is responsible for the doors (lights in the passenger area). If you can have an AI guard in TS2020 why not in TSW? This is also a missed opportunity in TSW to be the Guard/ Ticket Inspector. (Look at OMSI2 and how the driver collects fares) In our case the Guard/Ticket inspector would do the same.

    Talking to the signaler. On the NTP and TVL routes, if you need to contact the signalman you stop at the signal and use the phone. (The dialogue could be done in the way it is on FSX when talking to the control tower). In the GWR and ECW routes via the GSMR system. However we must hit TAB and hit a button.

    When you take over a service from another driver he or she will advice you of the load and any issues (Again this could be done via a dialogue box similar to FSX (Flight Sim X). Also when coupling to a train you would walk around making sure every vehicle was coupled correctly and all handbrakes released and a tail lamp on the rear where appropriate.

    I could go on. And some may think this is going too far but, is the simulator not supposed to be educational?

    As for "Customer Service", I get their side they have people asking all the time for this and that! and to that person its valid, and a perspective needs to be taken on what is beneficial for the platform as a whole and someones personal unique wants Like a particular route or locomotive etc. Unfortunately DTG has a history of ignoring all of its customers and having zero empathy "What they have done is epic, and anyone that criticizes are wrong".

    They ask for our views and in some cases while not responding to us take them onboard

    They have a good product (subject to improvement) but rubbish Customer service.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
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  29. dave from Cornwall

    dave from Cornwall Member

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    There is another way to look at it...

    There are lets say 20-30 vocal members of this board, of which 3 or 4 are the most critical of everything, yet still pay to play the game. There are 1 or 2 who are critical and rude at everyone else's thoughts of the game.

    DGT wont be making the game for the 20 loud ones, it will be making it for (lets hope for the financials) the thousands who buy it and play it happily or unhappily without coming on here and shouting on the pages here?

    They will be listening to the 20, and bringing updates and fixes along the way, that will assist the silent majority in their game play.

    All I hope for is that with this new wheel slippage difficulty thing that the timetable allows us to creep out of stations! I can envisage me being late and missing the stopping points as I cant get it going or stopping...hey ho...

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
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  30. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Active Member

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    The idea that if dtg doesn't have time to do it right before release or fix after release because they would go out of business,means they might as well just go out of business because this is a very stupid way to run a business,why would anyone defend this kind of system,we here would gladly spend are cash on a job well done either before or after release.Think of all the hours and days and weeks it took you to earn the money you spent on train sim world content,if only dtg cared about there work as much as you did taking some of your hard earned cash to spend on it.
     
  31. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but I disagree.

    If it was left to the silent majority, there would have been no delay and no using "preserved collection" in the scenario planner, DTG would have just gone ahead with releasing it as per their original intentions. At the time of the original announcement, all the older DLC's were incompatible with the new version. All of a sudden it's no longer incompatible it's just taking a couple more weeks work.

    I won't say it's only because people complained, but the fact that so many of the community weren't happy will have had some bearing on the decision to delay and the extra features announced for older DLC's.
     
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  32. dave from Cornwall

    dave from Cornwall Member

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    This is the problem with message boards...I did say "They will be listening to the 20, and bringing updates and fixes along the way, that will assist the silent majority in their game play."

    The complainers have a job to highlight issues. That is not a problem. All I was trying state is the game is built for the silent majority.

    D
     
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  33. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Apologies, I read it as there are 20 vocal members only 3 or 4 were critical.
     
  34. Louis-MTA NYCTA

    Louis-MTA NYCTA Well-Known Member

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    I feel the same way too. I would think DTG would have started off new with TSW 2 but what I'm currently seeing is glorified features from TS classic. My only main issue with DTG is some of their past TSW content has been pretty controversial within the community. TSW 2 could be the redemption that DTG needs to regain their trust and improve the overall environment of the community. But like many do say only time will tell. I love trains so it's pretty clear why I would buy TSW or TS classic I really don't mind the prices I just buy the routes/trains to drive trains it's a hobby that I'm guessing all of you have. But I don't buy it to immerse myself in the sim as it currently stands. Nevertheless I am happy DTG has not made any pay to win or other scummy business actions and I praise them for it.

    That paragraph might have sounded negative but I just want to show how I feel of DTG. But other than that, I am looking forward for TSW 2 and I am a little excited.
     
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  35. Tay95

    Tay95 Well-Known Member

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    For a small company I find them great. Plenty of other small companies out there which make shocking games and don't listen to any customers.
     
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  36. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    TSW2 is giving us many of the things we wanted in TSW, such as variable adhesion, better clouds, longer trains, creating scenarios, doing repaints, platform screens, and more information about your train, yet people are still unhappy. I don't get it.
     
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  37. edward.gregg

    edward.gregg New Member

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    Dont get me wrong, DTG are supplying a product that is overall good and I thank them for it. The problem is they release a new addon (fair enough, they are a business and need to make money)but they seem to fall down when addressing bugs/faults, and the way they deal with their customers in after sales.

    You cant ever release a piece of software bug free as something will always crop up that beta testers missed or never came across DTG can not be blamed for this unless there is clear evidence they do not carryout rigorous testing. (Unless someone from DTG comes forward and says "Yeah we dont care and just release a product without proper testing" then we must assume they are doing their job.)

    Unfortunately on the face of it you could jump to and lot do that DTG doesn't care about its customer base. I dont think this is the case, or hope not. But from day one it comes across that way, due to lack of communication with their customers when it comes to issues. Its not often you see a DTG rep say "Thank you for letting us know about this we will look into that and keep you updated".

    If you report an issued they must take it onboard i'm sure, but why not tell us they have and if they cant fix it easy why not? Be open and honest and I think most of the negativity would disappear. Its all about communication.

    They need to take a real look at their Customer Service and After Sales approach. which to me is the crux of the matter.
     
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  38. edward.gregg

    edward.gregg New Member

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    I believe it was because most of this was promised with the original launch of TSW back in 1800 and frozen stiff.
     
  39. kylel2036

    kylel2036 Active Member

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    I think it's the part were you have to pay $30 for a new game with new features & routes like the horror
     
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  40. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think there are a small minority who want to keep the argument going. I think most have moved on now and will look to the future.

    It comes down to the basic fact, as ever, it is your money and if you don't like what is on offer no-one is forcing you to buy into it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
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  41. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, I've not seen many complaints recently about TSW2 as a whole. I think most agree that £25 is good value for three new routes. Obviously at first there was a lot of disappointment in the preserved content being mothballed as opposed to preserved, but now that they've changed their plans this is no longer an upset. (Although I feel slightly sorry for anyone that actually likes NEC, as they'll have to to have two games installed if they want to continue playing).

    Only quoted the last sentence of your post to save this being an essay, however you've hit the nail on the head. There would be so much less complaints if the information flow was better. Things like:

    - Announcing preorder and discount for PC players, but leaving Console players in the dark. Then using a stream (not even a TSW2 stream) to mention there won't be preorder for console. This sort of information should be in a news article, or on the forum in the announcement section.

    - Numerous bugs that are never acknowledged or fixed. Sometimes it isn't possible to fix bugs within the limitation of the game. I understand this, but threads go ignored. The memory dumps on NTP is my main nag. For some console players, this route is totally unplayable, as the game will crash at Miles Platting. This has never been fixed, and no public statement for this either. People (like me) have ended up with £35 of unusable DLC (the route and heavy freight pack). That's not a small amount of money...

    - The fire and forget approach to DLC release. DLC is released and the bugs never fixed. The M3 and Class 20 are unlikely to see an update, and both have bugs. The 31 has an unplayable scenario as a result of the class 20 being released, and this is sadly also unlikely to be fixed. I've never complained about the price of TSW DLC, but I do resent paying so much for a product that has zero support and after sales.

    - Lack of manuals. TSW is billed as a simulation game with advanced features. Advanced features require documentation. (This is especially true when the tutorial mentions a manual, but there isn't one - class 20 I'm looking at you).

    If DTG can fix the communication issues (and they have been getting better, but there's still a long way to go), then this will do a great deal to calm the community and reduce the moaning.
     
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  42. 4-COR

    4-COR Active Member

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    The 33 doesn't have a manual either, or does it?
     

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