Dtg, Quality Policy

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by breblimator, May 14, 2021.

?
  1. yes

    139 vote(s)
    84.2%
  2. no

    26 vote(s)
    15.8%
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  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I just hope DTG respond to at least one of the various threads highlighting their issues and failures tomorrow, instead of pretending everything is fine and staying silent.
     
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  2. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Matt just can't promise to fix things. However, I think steps can be made in transperancy, saying "we do know this bugs a lot of you, and understand why, and we'll try to fix it", and after that, give insight to what is going. Explain to players why issues are present, why you decided to release the product regardless, and what you are or aren't currently doing to fix these issues. That still means no promises, but the truth about what's currently happening, and transperancy about decisions. Sometimes, that might result in things the playerbase doesn't want to hear ("we tried out best, but that bug is too deeply routed to fix, we are sorry about that"), but it would be better than the same mantra of "we know that's wrong, but give us money now and who knows, we might fix it, we might not, not promising anything, or you know what, don't buy it if that's an issue for you".

    The biggest thing that bugged me is Matt saying: "PZB is great! It adds so much depth, you can't go back to playing without it!" (Roughly paraphrasing) on a route on which he knew PZB wasn't even close to working correctly. Saying such a thing makes new players (that might not immeadiately note the severity of the PZB issues from a release stream where they are intentionally played down) think there is a lot of PZB fun to be had on that route, and then when they buy it, they discover it isn't fun at all, because it's broken as hell.
     
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  3. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Sam mentioned the next roadmap stream tuesday is going to be about fixes. Knowing Sam, I have good hopes he'll directly adress the issues. Sam is more than willing to ask hard questions usually.
     
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  4. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    +1 on this

    I agree. To release a route with completely broken PZB when they should have a ton of experience now is pretty much unacceptable. If such a thing can go through QA, then something must be going seriously wrong behind the scenes.

    I hope so. The patch and Hamburg - Lübeck both in one week was rough, to say the least. Sam's my hope for getting some answers.
     
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  5. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Also they already have competition, Trainz has a decent player base, and there's many other smaller games that already exist as well. And you've had many third parties in TS Classic that have been able at least partially outdo DTG for years.
     
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  6. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Yes BUT all those are on pc,dtg has ZERO competition on console so we on console have only TSW2 or nothing else currently!
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well on console, that's not the case
     
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  8. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    The sad truth is the blame goes both ways...

    Dovetails Games is to blame for there shoddy work that never get better only worse...
    But...
    Sadly it's player base is also at fault more the less because more then less of us keep buying every new dlc without fail...
    So by doing this it give no incentive for dtg to change for the better,when players will buy there work even if they know it's going to come pre broken.(And before you ask how would i know it will come broken,well dtg track record hasn't given me any reason to think differently and at this point i just might never will).
    But this is a video games industries wide problem nearly every major and minior studio has released there games unfinished or broken because people will buy it right away even if it doesn't work or work right,hoping the game maker will fix it later.
    BTW I have seen a few people suggesting they might go play the mass effect trilogy,i hate to burst your bubble but reviews say that games a hot mess too.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  9. nockwurst

    nockwurst Well-Known Member

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    Mannnnnn, I just want to drive trains. Working trains without bugs, is that too much to ask? Sigh.
     
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  10. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Not to much to ask at all but unfortunately it's just to much for dtg to deliver.
     
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  11. JeffFromTheIRS

    JeffFromTheIRS Member

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    Have you tried the ol' "Three $60 games for the price of one" route? ;)
     
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  12. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    We don't need transparency or statements but people working on this to be solved. It's clear that game quality has been worsen or no posts like this would exist. There are DLCs still without any user manuals at all, the patches break things that worked well before, errors are put in the list for months to the point of being forgotten, the preservation update is still partial and without a clear deadline for completion and new releases just add more errors to the existing list.

    Cheers
     
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  13. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    yes they may be trivial things to one person but really important for another. I don’t care much whether a signpost or station name board on a route is slightly too far down the platform etc, really doesn’t bother me but to some people that’s a really important thing to get fixed and for some people’s issues to be ignored and others fixed is where I start to get annoyed.
     
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  14. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    It´s not only the game they are doing a poor job with, their website is pretty poorly managed too, it seems almost forgotten.
    10 day after the last sale (which ended on May 7), there is still a banner saying "Spring sale" on https://store.dovetailgames.com/eu/es/sale
    I was checking this page back when I was playing T.S. as they used to make weekly offers separate from Steam.

    There is another bug, each time I sign in to Dovetail live, instead of my own username I would see one belonging to another user together with their avatar image too as if I was hacking into one's account.
    Sale.jpg
     
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  15. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    Good morning everyone.

    Your feedback has definitely been noticed. Proving this to you however is a different matter.

    It's not possible for me to physically show you the discussions we have had because of your feedback. But they are happening.

    We don't want to provide you with content you aren't satisfied with, and on occasion we will recommend you hold off on a purchase, if based on your comments we think you won't enjoy the route.
    I do understand why some of you do not appreciate this response as you would rather see updates over holding off on a purchase.

    As you know, no route will ever be completely perfect. We could spend years focussed on one DLC and still find areas that need working on. The importance of some issues will always be more important for some than others. And what one person may consider a small issue, another user will consider to be a large issue. We take note of all feedback you give us.

    In some cases problems have slipped the net that shouldn't have. Such as the PZB issue on Hamburg and the S6 issue with the LIRR patch. This is an error, and we are investigating how this wasn't noticed sooner.

    I understand why there is the feeling of disappointment, and you feel like we have let you down. We have dropped the ball a with a few of our more recent releases, and we do need to make changes to regain your faith.

    I will continue to ensure you are heard internally. I understand it can feel like that might not be happening at the moment, but you are being heard.
     
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  16. Task

    Task Well-Known Member

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    I think at this point you really have to do some things to prove this to us. Maybe don’t instantly hand over the new route (and RT) to the Preservation Crew for the next iteration of fixes in 1-2 years. Maybe even consider using parts of the main teams to correct the most pressing issues about the latest releases. Also things like Matt’s statement „I‘ll look into the missing line numbers on the PIS but I can‘t promise you it will be changed.“ When you downgrade a feature (unwillingly it seems) at least make sure the problem gets resolved as soon as possible and don’t make us hope that maybe someday in a year the preservation crew will fix the issue.

    If you want TSW to be a successful product in the feature you can’t keep disappointing the community every other release. It can’t be in your interest that statements like „Ah it’s DTG, it won’t get fixed short to mid term anyway“ on major things are even thought of. When something like the S6 or PZB issues or even the scenario designer problems occur, most games would have gotten a hotfix a few days later (maybe even on a weekend if necessary). With TSW we would be lucky when it’s fixed with the next release two to three (or even more) weeks later. But even that isn’t guaranteed.

    And in what I said here the smaller, non-gamebreaking but certainly immersion-breaking or fun taking issues aren't even considered. With them we can't even hope for a fix ever. And especially in your latest releases there aren't only a few in them.

    Please change or TSW doesn’t really have a bright future or a future at all.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  17. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    DTG Natster Thanks for the response.

    As you’ve mentioned, some of the latest releases really aren’t acceptable and shouldn’t have passed quality assurance. This has happened quite a few times now, only to be “fixed” in a post update. I put fix in quotation marks because a lot of these fixes mentioned in the change log really aren’t there.

    Something really needs to change because the way DTG have been going really isn’t acceptable. The Steam reviews of the latest German DLC reflect this. To us players, it seems more and more like a ‘Don’t like it? Don’t buy it’ policy, with less and less care and empathy for both us are players and the DLC.

    Standards have been slacking and are continuing to fall. This isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact. Several players from this community will back this up.

    Something NEEDS to change, before players loose the little faith we have left with DTG...

    Also, no disrespect to you, but I feel like we’ve had several of these messages before. Apologising and saying improvements will be made, yet DTG constantly make the same mistakes time and time again.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  18. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Please be upfront when there are issues. I cannot believe that someone with HBL downloaded on their system weeks before release. Wouldn't have touched a new loco (112). Not noticed it had no brake and the route had dodgy PZB. These were not going to be mentioned at all, but for people with early regional releases hitting the chat.
     
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  19. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I really appreciate your response Natalie. This is no reflection on you whatsoever, but actions speak much louder than words. With all due respect, we’ve had lots of words. Not a lot of action.

    I really love TSW 2 and this is why I’m so frustrated. DTG can clearly do a superb job. It has demonstrated this on many occasions, which is why silly repeat mistakes etc are so annoying.

    The community is clearly getting fed up and as the community are arguably the most loyal and passionate customers, it really must be heard and immediate actions must be taken to show this.
     
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  20. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    I can see why the PZB and S6 problems feel like a failure of QA. On this occasion it was a case of human error where they didn't get noticed soon enough.

    Anything on the list of updates for LIRR and RT will get double checked by Adam to ensure they are all working as intended. If some of the fixes haven't worked, we will investigate.

    I understand why you feel the way you do and I agree there has been a lot of talk. I will be working alongside our teams internally to help make positive changes going forward. It is unfortunately a slow process.
     
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  21. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    How about fixing the DB BR 112 Headlights and the terrible Sounds from the 112/143 or Rapid Transit Talent 2?
     
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  22. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    It is fantastic that you are aware of the current status of the project, Natalie. The next steps, which a responsible company would take, are to prove that it cares and stands by its official statements.

    The purpose of a preview stream is commercial, right? It's meant to convince the audience to buy it, yet the audience is told to hold off if it doesn't like the product because of its errors.

    The focus should be to get people to buy, isn't that why you built it? So, instead of "hold off" maybe use "hold on" and look into the issues to make the product appealing to as many as possible. Don't choose the approach with less effort because if we hold off on this one and on the next 3 to 5 routes you won't like how the quarterly reports will look like and then the financial impact will be higher than you think or expect.

    With this in mind, it makes me wonder if there is long term plan for the game or the business goes in small steps as the wind blows!?
     
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  23. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    Suggesting they were noticed, but released broken anyway?
     
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  24. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    For full disclosure.

    The S6 issue we were made aware of on the morning of the update. We made the decision to give you the update instead of delaying it further. The fix is now in the works.

    The PZB error we were not aware of until the community brought it to our attention.
     
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  25. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    But according to the official statement from the patch notes the patch has not even been completely applied, only partially? Do we know when the remainders of said patch will be shipped? It might fix some issues already.

    Of course I don't know the reason why, but please don't split patches in imaginary halves. We get a list of fixes and improvements and then are being told that actually not all of that has been included, without any information as to what has actually been included, and when or even if there is a second patch coming.
     
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  26. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    :)
     
  27. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    This really does question the testing policy sadly. Do the testers run with PZB on? It takes just one run with PZB to identify.

    If you're wanting some testers who use safety systems then please get in touch. We all want the product to be the best it can be, but an omission of this size is really unacceptable...
     
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  28. Fitz

    Fitz Well-Known Member

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    So basically the play testers played this route without the safety systems on? It just feels like we are paying to play test new releases. Maybe a move to free early access is a way to play test going forward?
     
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  29. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    The exact details of how they test I do not have to hand.

    But as explained above, we are currently investigating how this was missed.
     
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  30. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Easily remedied... two weeks before release get Matt and Sam to do an intro video and then let the community "have at it". I'm sure the users here will give you full and frank feedback and so long as those issues are fixed, will be much happier
    And then the pedants will fill you in on the remainder of the issues

    It does sound as if your "testers" are following some sort of script as to what to test, rather than driving as a user would
     
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  31. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Let’s not take this out on Nat, as she is only the messenger.

    As ever, it’s the failures and incompetences of the internal management within this company that allow things like this to happen. As long as the money keeps on rolling in, they are unlikely to change anything.
     
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  32. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Unbelievable. We have to wait for months of internal testing and it can't even spot such GIANT issues. This is embarrassing.
     
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  33. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    DTG Natster
    What is this for a Bug on Xbox with the White Stripes?
    It happen all the time, it comes and go Lirr. 3C183D60-D0DA-41CA-B11D-A93694A995A1.jpg
     
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  34. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Viewed from an external perspective, the complete non-functionality of a large chunk of the content does not feel like a failure of QA. It looks like there is no QA....... None at all. It looks like an "Oakville" cut and shut.

    The evidence for no (effective/robust) QA process can be seen in the final product, by everyone, within a few minutes of using it (or demonstrating it on a livestream). It is clearly not a case of problems "slipping through the net", it's not even a broken net.... it's a case of the ship finding itself miles out to sea having left its nets on the dock-side, completely unused.

    The quality of the shipped product indicates that no process of Quality Assurance has been implemented. Such a process would (almost always) prevent "human error", because a product would not be released unless it had been checked (QC). Or the product could be allowed to pass through unchecked within a system that is proven to capture/prevent issues making it into the final product (QA) - this could, for example, be an extremely effective change management process (which, shockingly for a software company, I am not sure DTG actually have....).... but to rely on that, the development process itself would have to be robustly tested - and I'd be fairly sure that doesn't happen, given the way the range of products is released.

    I personally think that DTG needs to implement (and refine/develop for its own needs) a process of QA, including detailed QC (testing against a specific check-list of criteria) before product release, backed up with a company wide project to create a culture of TQM in every part of the organisation - particularly in sales and customer service, always asking yourself if you are doing the right thing and what can be done to improve.

    An example of QC, say, for the DB BR 101, would have been to load the candidate shipping build DLC into a PS4 DevKit, within game memory emulation, and just try and switch everything on. A ten minute check would have picked up that the PZB lights did not work (now fixed - thanks... ;-) ).. This simple check (as part of a set of checks that could take, maybe, a couple of hours) did not originally happen. I would expect it to happen. You get no assurance (for PS4) from a working example of PZB lights on a PC build - and DTG must already know this, because it has happened before, again and again. So you do have to test the PS4 build on a DevKit, before you release it for sale. This includes the DLCs developed by third parties, but published by yourselves.

    Hopefully the new QA person will be able to implement something for you guys. This would make future purchase decsions at full price more likely for many players, leading to:

    More QA = More Money

    It's really good to pay the full asking price, to support one of your favourite developers - but it is a quid pro quo - you have to earn the reputation that deserves a pre-order, and/or full price purchase........ or any purchase at all.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  35. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    Whilst something is failing in the testing process at DTG as said elsewhere if people keep buying it then no incentive to iron out the defects in a route/loco. Some folk appear to need to have everything and buy it nonetheless. Then rant and rave if issues are present. This has been going on long before TSW appeared. Some DLC for TS2*** has been very dubious in quality and that isnt just DTGs own content. Also some has been great. It isnt all bad and that is maybe what is frustrating that the bar can be set high sometimes also.

    I am at the point now where my interest in train simming is low, I must point out that is not to do with quality but more the lack of stuff that excites me personally, I am starting to get very bored with the same runs on the same routes in the same stock with nothing changing.

    Were does all this go now...?
     
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  36. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Just something to be mindful of , if you follow dtg on LinkedIn they’ve just employed 4 QA people
     
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  37. Glazier

    Glazier Member

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    Then we can probably expect a quality products start flowing in about 18-24 month... >_>
     
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  38. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    There are a good amount of positive reviews on Steam about HHL that are pretty funny.

    They are like: "Yes, the route is full of bugs, the loco is recycled, dostos are recycled, PZB doesn't work, sounds are crap, but I still recommend it"

    :D:D:D
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  39. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    quality control and quality assurance, continuous improvement, total quality management, ISO, etc.

    My main employer (by time factor) was a long-time family business based on passion, intuition, and heart. It turned out that it was not enough. The implementation of ISO quickly brought remarkable results (not without mishaps) and led to record turnover. The number of complaints in certain key areas for the end customer has dropped to zero (annually). Reporting is very important. I was not a big proponent of an issues reporting system that I found overwhelmed with complexity, but the data that could be extracted from it was at a premium at times. After some time it became unimaginable to repeat the same mistake twice, because each time the appropriate improvement actions led to a tightening of the relevant procedures, and sometimes (paradoxically) also to their simplification. Quality management is not just Preservation Team Fixes. This is the question of the genesis. I have no doubts, DTG employs appropriately competent people. This mostly worries me. Potential premeditation. I am not suggesting a conspiracy or malice. I am afraid it is cheap and good enough from the DTG perspective.
     
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  40. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this - this is exremely useful. I have two suggestions, in relation to the S6, given that DTG knew it was broken beforehand....

    1. DTG could have decided to delay the release of the update, given the sheer scope of the funtionality lost with the S6 services becoming broken - it might be the favourite bit for a lot of people....? I can't imagine how you could justify releasing it, with such a major known (new) problem.

    2. DTG could have provided an advisory note in the patch notes making it clear that you are aware of the S6 services becoming broken, explaining why you are releasing the game-breaking update anyway, and providing an assessed timescale for when the update would be patched, so as to not waste the time of customers.

    Why would DTG leave the S6 issue to be discovered by customers.... and leave the control of the communications about it to the Community over a full weekend...? It doesn't make sense, as a decision. Not your issue (personally), of course - I think that you and Jamie have always done an absolutely great job for the Community (and professionally for DTG), despite the circumstances they put you in.
     
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  41. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Recently, an investigation led to a network of 200.000 people posting fake positive reviews for money on Amazon all over the world. I will bet all my belongings that Steam has its own, along with any other big platform.
     
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  42. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    Regarding this kind of niche products, I don't think it's the case
     
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  43. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    At least all the employees of DTG have left a positive review for the addon :D

    Oh wait there are just 10 employees by DTG :D
     
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  44. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I'll raise you 142 as a minimum....

    Capture.PNG
     
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  45. Task

    Task Well-Known Member

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    I would say releasing it still was the right decision as it didn't break anything that we had before but only made something new (we got for free) not playable, while the rest was perfectly useable. But as you said a note in the patch notes with a timescale etc would have been the least they could do. But best would have been when the QA team would have played one of the services one single time. The issue would have surfaced when you try to finish the services in the direction of Markleeberg or right when you start the service in the direction of Leipzig. I don't think it's much to ask that every major type of playable service should at least be finished once (plus everything in the journey maybe), ideally with safety systems on. When one or two special depot services don't work: Okay, so be it. But when all services of one type / line don't work, your QA is definitely flawed.
     
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  46. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    The community would have lost the plot.

    We’ve got another thread on here, asking why do patches and big fixes, take so long?

    Even the collective community doesn’t know what it wants at times!
     
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  47. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    In the ever-increasing digital world that we live in, reviews are a make or break for a business or a product. I recommend searching for some reports, researches, investigations, and stories of the ones involved.

    There is also the opposite of positive reviews for money, that target competition with negative reviews. There are too many legitimate businesses that shut down when such an avalanche of reviews hit them. On multiple instances, even when they tried to join the market again.

    Remember that such campaigns, negative or positive, can be way more affordable than any advertising campaign for one's product(s). this is why this dirty world exists.
     
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  48. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    100% agree with all of this. DTG clearly has an amazing group of talented software engineers, creatives and artists, with some enthusiasttic and deeply invested developers. And this has grown out of a small organic team (of maybe seven people..?) to something twenty times bigger (about 150...?). Such small teams know each other's work in a great deal of depth, frequently update each other, and have a chance to work cohesively to a jointly desired outcome. "Processes" are not needed - everyone knows what they are doing, individually, and as a team.

    As soon as any team becomes larger than about 12 members, a completely different system of organisational management becomes necessary, to ensure that the workflow is being directed, and to ensure everything (that is valuable) is communicated, to co-ordinate the work, keep it on track, and deliver the quality that you want. To ensure this is sustainable, you need to back it up with agreed and documented processes, including a documented and agreed QA process (however the assurance is achieved).

    This is where DTG fails - management and organisation. And it is understandable, having grown so quickly from such a small team. But this does now need to be fixed - it is DTG's management processes that need to get the next update/patch, or indeed.... be created for the first time..... ;-O.

    It's a right royal Facebooking Pain in the Amazon to write a bunch of processes and quality management documents, and get everyone to agree them - but this is the step that DTG needs to take, given the scale that it has acquired. Full ISO accreditation/certification is usually considered a step too far (unless you need want/need to demonstrate to partners/investors that you take internal management seriously) .....but some exposure to Quality principles.... just a few people in DTG reading about it and talking about it, would be a great first step.

    Culture change takes a long time, but there is hope, because the core talent in DTG is truly fantastic.

    All the Community needs to see is the results. - working versions of the routes and locos we all love to immerse ourselves in. Made by DTG, please.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  49. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    They have lost my Trust after the wrong Headlights on the 112 with the terrible sounds plus not giving us the High Entry Dostos.
    Or that still the Rapid Transit Talent 2 has the awful sound.

    Also the new PIS System is a Downgrade.
     
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  50. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    They only just lost your trust now?

    Surprising since you come here to complain about at least 3 things per day.
     
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