Dtg Should Extend The Length Of The Upcoming Harlem Line To Southeast.

I really hope we can see that as well. I really liked the night-lighting on BRD, and it would fit really well on this route, especially once you get into NYC around the Wakefield Station.

 

Honestly I think perhaps the hudson line would've been more feasible looking at the excuse that was given. If they can't make a full route that's outside their scope, it's better not to do it to be honest

 

Most of the P32AC-DM services run north of southeast since that part of the line isn't electrified. You would mostly see P32s run south of Southeast to/from grand central during peak times and even then that isn't a ton of services.

The trains that terminate at North White Plains are less frequent local services hence why I don't agree with having the route end at North White Plains. It's like how lirr terminates at Hicksville. Just doesn't make sense.

 

That’s easy to explain. The planning of these routes takes a long time. So in the future it may change but for routes already planned it’s not so easy to change.

 

The difference between this and Hamburg-Lübeck is that there some of the rolling stock wasn’t even realistic (low entry dosto) but on the Harlem line these two MUs are correct

 

Check the weekend schedule and on Weekdays you're going to see the pattern of express M7A 8 cars M3A 8-12 cars to southeast locals to NWP

 

If this is recycled units or units looking 89% identical other than a number I may swerve this unfortunately

 

The M units are great though, so if they actually fix the issues the LIRR ones have, then it can be a nice drive.

 

Oh and I forgot to mention - alongside the number of scenery assets and trains physics - perhaps the most important area where things have been lacking so far in US releases: signalling.

I hope DTG will ensure that signalling on this route works as it should, please no more crawling at 30 mph when you arrive at Providence or non working in cab signals like Sherman Hill.

 

Definitely. Not only light aspect signalling and ATC, but physical signage as well. Talking about things like speed boars, whistle boards and stopping markers. Somehow something is always off about them. It's either whistle boards totally missing (LIRR, Clinchfield), speed boards totally or partially missing (LIRR and Clinchfield again) or stopping point boards being in the wrong location (NEC and Peninsula Corridor at a few places).

Sherman Hill was quite good in this regard, we actually have speed limit and whistle boards alongside the route. Though someone has mentioned that not all speed reductions have adverse warning signs placed before them. But overall it's pretty good.

Other US routes should get up to this standard as well. I've been whining for whistle boards for LIRR for ages, then Clinchfiels also released without any whistle boards.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I don't believe there's many whistle boards on the Harlem Line, if any at all. The line is 100% grade separated south of North White Plains Station with only a handful beyond it.
Regardless of this however, I believe Metro North trains always blow their horns when entering a platform, but there won't be a dedicated board for it. That doesn't mean the route is absent of other various markers however.

Another minor tidbit: from videos I've seen online and from my own real life experience, Metro North trains on the Harlem Line definitely do crawl along slowly, particularly in track sections north of the Bronx. Speeds of around 15 MPH, I reckon. This is speculation on my part, but I believe there's been extensive track work being done on the line as of recently.
Whether or not DTG will model this, I'm somewhat doubtful, but keep in mind that you won't be traveling along at speed for much of the journey anyways.

 

Joe. Let me just thank you again, for the extremely awesome job with regards to the BML timetable. #BasedJoe.

To answer your question, no. It wouldn't be appropriate for the M7A or M3A, to sub in for M8 or M2 services. Here's why:

Third-rail only trains like the M7A and M3A, do not go down the New Haven line, due to the fact that there is no third rail electrification, past Mount Vernon East station. This is also the same station, where the OHLE begins, for trains like the Dual-mode M8s and M2s. They switch from third rail DC, to the AC wiring overhead for power, before proceeding down the NHL.

 

Yes. We know they aren’t the correct train but if they make the tracks busier with extra AI then it will improve the route for most players. Nobody wants a dead route like LIRR again.

 

Im conflicted on this myself Joe as a regular commuter on the line. Here are my pros and cons:

Pros:
-Adds much more traffic to the route where the New Haven Line joins and will make the route truly come alive.
-The EMUs on the New Haven generally resemble the ones used on the Harlem and Hudson. M8 was designed directly off the M7 so it resembles it somewhat closely. The older M2 New Haven units look almost identical to the M3As as well even though the M2s have just been retired from the line.

Cons:
-As mentioned above, the trains used on the New Haven have pantographs and third rail is only in place for a mile or 2 once it leaves the Harlem line.
-The color scheme of the New Haven is red and the train liveries reflect that in real life. Instead of the blue stripe on the M3As, there is a red stripe on the M2s. Same thing for the M8s which are even more red inside and out.

 

They're just gonna have to make an M8 too. Three sort-of recycled trains on 24 miles of track seems like a decent DLC.

 

You mean the American answer to 387/2 High Speed Class 395 because it can do OHLE Third Rail. M8 max out 100 mph 160 kmh but 387/2 110 mph 180 kmh.

 

I don't see the point in making a M2 or M8 dlc. The only stations the new haven line trains stop at is Harlem-125 Street and Fordham before going express splitting off the Harlem line at Woodlawn to Mount Vernon East bypassing Harlem line stations along the way. It wouldn't be worth it in my opinion

 

Well you can really only work with what you have. The main reason why lirr was so dead in the first place was because dtg modelled the ATC signaling system incorrectly. I don't want to see M7As and M3As running as New Haven line trains as that would be a huge immersion killer for me since I use the line quite often

 

As Stujoy said, even though they are the incorrect units, I think it would still be a good idea to put them in, mainly because they will increase the number of services the player sees. Without them (even if the Hudson Line services are added in), the portion of the route between Harlem - 125 St and Woodlawn would feel very empty and void of life. It's not like we would see an M8 DLC for this route anyways, as the route is focused on the Harlem Line, and doesn't include a big portion of the New Haven Line that has OHLE.

I'd add them in, and if a New Haven Line route was created in the future, which included the M2/M4/M6/M8 I'd layer those onto those services in place of the M7A's.

I do appreciate you asking some of us in the community what would be the best option for this though. This type of communication will always be appreciated.

 

Exactly, I echoed this in the other thread. This is a commuter line so it needs traffic and something to populate GCT. Now we have Rush Hour, we can't go back to whatever we had before.

Well, the choice, as I said, is between a busy approach to GCT or the dead zone. DTG are not going to model M2's or M8's just for AI traffic so they'll have to fake it. Some will accept that and some won't. Of course, we have no indication that DTG will continue Rush Hour with this route, but if they don't, I might have to use the avoiding line.

 

Exactly. If no New Haven Line services are added to the route, we would be stuck with only Harlem/Hudson Line services, and while that would mean that we get maybe 300 Services, it would still lead to an empty Southern section around GCT.

 

Well faking things as a compromise in my opinion doesn't make sense. DTG are making the Harlem line, not the New Haven line. I see what you are saying but it doesn't make sense to add fake trains to a route just to add more services to make something feel busier and in my opinion isn't needed. Sure it might be "less busy" but it certainly won't be dead compared to lirr if Hudson line services are added. By your logic, that's like saying that DTG should've added a 377 on the Bakerloo line as overground services or fake trains on the west coast mainline to make the Bakerloo more busy. I thought this was supposed to be a simulator.

I think a best solution would be for DTG to possibly make a New Haven Line dlc in the future with the M8 and then have that be a layer on the Harlem line. Sure it would probably be years for thay but if something doesn't exist, it doesn't make sense to add something fake just to have it.

 

On the topic of the New Haven trains, here's another way of viewing things:

How would you be able to tell an M7 bound for New Haven apart from one on the Harlem Line?
If you're driving from your cab, you wouldn't.
The split off only occurs beyond Woodlawn Station, and thus if you're not really paying attention on this one minor detail, then I'd say no....subbing M7's onto the New Haven line would not look out of place. It would look like just another train traveling down the same line as you.
You'll be creating the illusion of having a busy timetable without it looking too weird.
How many people even noticed the detail about Milton Keynes Central services on the BML?
I believe it will be the same case here. The trade-off for a more busier timetable will be worth it in my opinion.

 

If your not familiar with the route then sure it may seem normal, but if you are then it kills immersion for some. Also if you were driving from the cab seeing the trains split off or come on to the Harlem line would be easily visible as trains heading to Grand Central crosses through a bridge directly above the Harlem line tracks near Woodlawn station while turning to connect on the harlem line and trains heading towards Mount Vernon East turn right after passing Woodlawn

 

While this is true, I believe it would be fine to overlook this detail especially since once you travel south of Woodlawn, these two lines share the same tracks.
The illusion only breaks if you see them turning off of the mainline and heading east toward Mount Vernon, but at all other times its something you wouldn't even notice.
Of course the perfect solution would be just to create the proper M8 units instead, but if we could sacrifice a little authenticity for a more robust and busier timetable....I'd prefer the busier timetable.

 

If think that if the New Haven services were added, it would be nicer to just use the M3A for those services. It would feel a bit more natural as:
- M3As look very similar to M2s, which used to run on the New Haven line
- The M7A has destination boards that would clearly tell you where it’s going. I don’t think the M3A has destination boards such as these, which makes it look more natural when sitting at GCT.

 

So... Once again, another piece of Route DLC that would have been served better in TS. And this is the problem with TSW... Content made for it, especially on the American side of things, gets shafted. Typical. But I guess it's a win for those who are more invested in this one.

I don't know how to feel about this, other than being more disappointed than excited. The constant shafting that American commuter-based routes get is clearly evident. Seems that the Pennisula Corridor was like the peak of respect for American Pax routes...

It would have probably made more sense to have done the Hudson to Croton-Harmon instead, as I think someone else mentioned, though you'd be missing P32's along with that. Unless those are being done as separate DLC to supplement the routes for either line.

But as a person who is a bit familiar with this line, substitution isn't going to cut it. You'd be missing more than half of what actually utilizes the line... So this really will be another mostly underutilized route unless another loco DLC is coming for it. For the most part, the line Below Mott Haven junction could still be visually the busiest portion because of the Hudson services, but it will largely be a quiet route from that point north.

Respectfully, for anyone who has no experience/familiarity with the route, I don't see how they can make a valid case for unrealistic movements, especially when I'm sure there would be some protest with any route that is dear to them lacking most of the respective stock/equipment for them. LIRR has been out 3yrs now.. and only one DLC was made for it, and that took nearly a year and a half for that to come.. So, I'm not hopeful about the Harlem line being anything different than the LIRR in that regard.

This is why I say it's a shame that these routes are only aesthetically attractive, but largely giving low replay vibes, as with the case with most TSW content I have to say. I say again, this would have served better for TS20xx as it would have largely filled in gaps that are seemingly and intentionally left unfilled in order to get folks to migrate over to the glossier, but less immersive title. I mean, look, I get people are trying to move on. But a lot of what I'm seeing in this sim is a lot of side-stepping, and most routes that are almost as entertaining as a figure 8 trainset.

Just upsetting to see this company, as much as I support it, give what's been asked for it to be partially done, and for a sim that will not serve it well from an immersion standpoint.

For years, asked for an Amtrak Ex metroliner cab car... we get it for a route and game that can only utilize for half a route that had probably the worst endpoints in the history across any train sim. When it would have better served in its spiritual predecessor. And now look.. it's mostly useless unless one still has TSW2020 installed.
LIRR... yet another route and resident missing from every TS route that utilizes Penn station... Only to be given in a game that doesn't serve it well. Even with a secondary loco dlc.

This was basically all just a long version of saying that I'm keeping my expectations low. As it seems to be the best way to avoid as much disappointment as possible. And even then, it's hard when it comes to the content (especially American-based).

 

You’re basically saying no to the extra movements but criticising the route without them in the rest of your post, saying it’s underrepresented.

The real stock for the other movements isn’t coming because that isn’t the route being made, so it’s the only way to get a busier experience for the parts that do overlap. London Commuter was made all the better for the unrealistic movements added to it for its overlapping sections and that’s a well loved UK route. Those services used the wrong stock from the route and stock already available in the sim, nothing new, and with no backlash. US train fans can have their empty route if they would prefer but it really only affects those who both know the route well and/or have unrealistic expectations of what they can expect from TSW. The substituting train is almost identical from the side view and that’s why it wouldn’t be a bad idea to also use it for AI services to make the route appear busier. The real train for those services isn’t coming and empty tracks would be worse.

You don’t have to be a New Yorker to have an opinion about this, we all get to pay our money and drive the route. If there’s something that will make it better value then I’m all for it. If they must have two versions of the timetable, an empty one for the purists and a busier one for the majority, then that could please everyone, but that’s unlikely. It wouldn’t please the purists anyway though because they want all the services, with all the trains, all included in a much longer route, which is out of reach I’m afraid.

 

Why can't an M8 that can only be AI driven be made? A train that maybe isn't as detailed as what we have at our disposal. It can have a very low poly interior to not interfere with memory, but let the exterior clearly be an M8. Something like this was done in the TS version of London-Brighton, where AI 455s (I think?!) were seen around Clapham Junction, but weren't driveable.

 

I think an M3 reskinned into red livery to represent the New Haven line would be good enough.

 

Does this mean you are doing the Harlem timetable, Joe?

 

I dont think its the miles thats the problem,its the number of stations combined with miles. Matt has said that stations take up a lot of work and theres already something like 16 or 17 stations to be modelled (excluding closed stations which IMO should still be modelled if they are there in real life).

 

I think this is your cash gift horse if it's implemented correct. I know there's the route vs content debate which I'm on board with but on a selfish note when I play the game I like to feel like I've been on a journey somewhere or part of a wider far busier network as opposed to popping to the shops stuck in traffic. Some routes just seem to do this better respective of mileage (Dresden, Brighton, Sherman)

 

Seriously, why not take the M3 model, reskin it and put a pantograph on it? Just a low unoperable pantograph and use the train as an AI service? That solves all the problem with trafic on the line.

Besides, most of the diesel service stop at Harlem 125th, White Plains and North Plains so there is scope for improvement in the future. (Would also be nice to see the switch between 3rd rail and diesel with the new simugraph tools.

 

Is there a way to add in an extra loco to the game, called an M2, which is actually just an M3 with a new, red paint job and is AI only. Like the 465 on BML.

Then, if/when time permits or we get a route where the M2 would run properly, update that model into a proper M2 with the pantograph and new interior and then swap that back in to the AI services on this route, replacing the dummy M2. Even if that never happens, we'd at least have AI trains in the right colour.

 

I really do not have a dog in this fight since either situation of realistic timetable with the provided trains, or substituted schedule would be fine for me, BUT it is a no win situation for DTG either way seeing that they can’t please everyone.

On the subject of an AI only M8, again a no win situation because as soon as it would be released, people would complain that they couldn’t drive it and why doesn’t DTG just do a little more work and make it drivable.

 

Understandable, but we've been told time and time again of the complexity of simugraph, and we also have a decent idea of how long it takes to properly develop a train. So I don't think there would be any sort of uproar against it, especially as it benefits the route in terms of how busy it will be, and last gen consoles (most likely) won't miss out too.

 

Well you have more faith in the community than I, I am feel confident there will be an uproar no matter what they choose to do

 

To me, even as a New Yorker, I think it would still be the best option to add in the services. Yes, it might feel a bit unrealistic to some players who may have ridden the line IRL, but in order to have a busy route, we're gonna have to sacrifice that little bit of realism. The portion of the route from 125 St to Woodlawn would just feel empty without these extra AI New Haven Line services, and everyone knows that there will be complaints because of that at release.

The M3 could be placed on those services, possibly with the New Haven Line Livery, or not, but being that the M3 more closely resembles the M2, than the M7A does with the M8, it wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

Not really. Yes the m3a and the M2 have a similar looking body, but the m2 has a larger roof for the Pantograph compared to the M3a

 

Funny how 30 stations are in London Commuter though. Also there aren't any abandoned stations on this line

 

That and the fact that a M2 and M8 would stop at 2 stations, Harlem 125th and Fordham

 

It does seem like a difficult decision for a timetable creator, I'm sure that if you do create the timetable for this route, you will choose the right option, whichever you might see it being. I'm really impressed with the BML Timetable, and I know that this route will turn out well if you also create the timetable for this route.

Good luck with it!

 

I would like the solution, but with how fickle DTG are about including more than one livery with any of their products in TSW I frankly think this is just as unlikely as them including a P32, or extending the route.

 

I don't see dtg doing that. That would mean they would have to make a thrid train. It's not as simple as slapping a pantograph in anyway

 

Do you think repainting the M3A into red for the New Haven AI services would be possible, or not something that DTG would make?

 

And this is why DTG are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they don't include the New Haven traffic, they'll be attacked. If they do the New Haven traffic with a subbed train, they'll be attacked. (and, no, there is no Option C: DTG are not going to develop an M2 just to run as a nondrivable background train)