Dtg's "policy" On Only Modern Content

Hi Matt,

Might be going a little off-topic here but wanted to ask a question that sort of relates to this;

Is there a reason for repeatedly using modified British PIS on new North American passenger routes? such as time constraints, not enough references, etc?

I understand the first iteration of the modified British PIS was for the Long Island RR Preservation Crew update, which is completely fine in my opinion. But something like Boston Sprinter or Harlem Line which were both new releases, both kept that same modified British PIS. I just don't think it's right to do, it's inaccurate.

The TGV route got authentic PIS even though that was pretty much just a one-off DLC for France. Will we see some authentic PIS for American routes in the future?

Thanks.

 

The comments from Matt in this thread are music to my ears. I exclusively enjoy modern era content (some of the stuff from DTG's catalog are becoming more historic by the day since certain trains like the upcoming Acela, and even the Class 323 will be phased out shortly with newer trains). I hope Dovetail will continue to put maximum effort into where the money is, and continue to develop and do research on present day content. That's not to say they should abandon older period content, after all, my wallet needs a break from time to time, but glad to hear that this trend will continue.

 

I’m actually quite surprised to read that there’s more demand for the modern stuff and wonder where that feedback is coming from and whether there’s a particular demographic driving it.

I have most of the available content and definitely find the older locos more interesting to drive, listen to and look at - I’ve really enjoyed getting to grips with the BR 110 and n- Wagen, for instance. The BR diesels are also great - they have so much more character than the more generic modern locos and offer a more challenging driving experience.

 

i feel like it’s because TSW 3 at least from a british standpoint has modern locos, but doesn’t have any of the more iconic ones like the 91, or the 390 or say the 800(even though controversial) the demand would change if to say we got these trains over time.

 

This is taken from my previous comment on the matter earlier in the thread:

Regarding the apparent lack of demand for BR Blue despite many on the forums clamoring for it, It's important to remember that not everyone that plays TSW is on these forums. I think that the people on these forums are more serious railway enthusiasts that care more about classic traction, while the average joe who bought TSW because it might be fun to drive a train will be more interested in modern add ons as they may contain trains or routes they actually recognize.

There's also the annual survey to consider, where people's opinions are more anonymous.

I think there are two ways to satisfy both crowds:

1. Have more routes based on closed lines, or routes that have changed significantly in recent decades. I'd buy a Woodhead route in a heartbeat, same goes for a route that included Lincoln St Marks or any other major closed station.

2. Have more routes set in transition periods. It may be more difficult negotiating licenses for defunct operators, but it would absolutely be worth the trouble. I'd love a present day WCML, but I'd love an early 2000s WCML with both Pendolinos and Class 87s and 90s even more.

 

People will not ask what they do not know. I think here some education may be helpful to show people how much more interesting it is to drive the old stuff instead of new present day routes. I think for German routes we now have so many similar modern routes that people like to have a change. Can we do something like that? Just showing what these old diesels, but also electric engines or steam engines can do for us? I think TSC has a lot of very good old stuff routes.Showing them again might help to open some minds.

 

I lived through the 80s and 90s in the UK and much of the "old stuff" wasn't interesting then and isn't now.
Faulty, claggy, noisy locos that break down and can't pull their own weight let alone much else might interest those who only look back with rose tinted specs

I guess the best thing about older locos and assets would be the variation in what they actually did, given the sheer amount of freight calling points and shunting that went on compared to today, but for passenger runs it would be much the same, just with a big blue box at the ffront going half the speed and unable to get up steep hills...

 

I agree with this, I had the opposite view, that modern trains were boring, I didn't drive them much in TSC but have done more so in TSW, as there hasn't been much choice really.

I still find some of these EMU's with one handle are nowhere near as engaging as driving a class 101 or a class 47, or even something like a class 314. However I find I do enjoy the experience, as long as the route and sounds are set up nicely.

However if all we get are more of the same then it will get boring, even those who love modern trains are wanting to see a change.

I do wish though, that some users would remember there are others who have other interests who also use TSW and not want everthing as they would like it.

Surely the more diversity of the content and users can only be good for the hobby in the long term.

 

I would say you are wrong, we all have our own different interests, just because you grew up in that era and have no interest in the trains of that era doesn't mean everyone else feels the same.

I don't think that the days of British Rail were some long since vanished utopia. However grew up with those trains, loved the sounds, the smells, the variety. You might also find a lot of those diesels apparently couldn't pull their own weight were still being used on express passenger services still 20 years ago.

Many people love steam trains but most would agree that they shouldn't be used in this day and age on regular revenue earning services!

If you want to talk about breakdowns, my experience of the class 172's on the Snow Hill lines is hardly one of uninterupted service. They are regularly late or cancelled due to a train fault!

 

The sounds were inefficient engines...
The smells I'm not sure about but possibly leaking oil
The variety just points to the inefficiency of the network and how the government failed to organise the system in a proper way

And I think the only classes really "used on express passenger services 20 years ago" were class 37s and 47 derivatives. That leaves a heck of a lot of classes that failed or got withdrawn because of said inefficiencies either in design or organisation - as an example the Deltics were initially withdrawn from passenger service because their main route got electrified, but then there weren't enough of them in service to keep making the parts so they got canned...

I'm all for differences and having things that work, but to say that "educating people on what happened decades ago might make them want it" isn't necessarily going to work

Many people want fast, often local, often what they know. Anything else is a curiosity

 

Conflict makes things interesting. In reality a train that's simple to drive is probably a good thing, but in a simulator it's less fun.

 

Surely that means modern trains are less fun. Older trains had a lot more controls and things to monitor than new ones, even if you had more time to monitor them because they tended to be slower overall?

 

And what on earth does that matter when making DLC for a simulator?

Next time I see a model of a GWR branch line at an exhibition, I shall "educate" the builder by saying how steam engines were inefficient and really you should be modelling the line as it is now or would be now with a modern multiple unit. Just because everyone obviously wants to see what they can see at their local station.

 

Yes, that's what I said. You're agreeing with me.

 

Because DTG want to sell stuff? and if more people are buying DLC representing newer trains how is educating those people that older trains might "provide more variety" help them decide that what they really want is a load of blue boxes failing and being towed back to depot by a class 37?

I'm perfectly happy to drive a dirty diesel myself, but it was the "reeducation" post above I was addressing

 

So should anything that's not reliable never be reproduced in a simulator? Unsure what your point is here other than you don't like BR era locos?



BR was organisation expected to run a railway on a shoestring. Locos that hauled quite important engineering work were often plucked out of sidings from warm store all week and expected to go (Bescot and 31s for one). It got kicked by the media non stop so that when privatisation occurred the emperor new clothes got put on and the likes of Virgin would make everything great. I don't want to take the thread off on a tangent but saying stuff broke down then when on today's railway the towel flies in at light speed is a touch odd. Yes 66s are generally more reliable than 47s but where did I see that we are playing train sim reliability world. Better axe all the steam stuff too while we are at it. Clinical 100% availability Sim only from now on.

 

Well I have never seen anyone say I don't want to drive a class 47 because they used to leak oil in 1990!

Also, you are totally misrepresenting the reliability of those trains as they were regularly having to replace the brand new Sprinters etc due to faults. Many first generation DMU's had an extended life due to the unreliability of the trains which were supposed to replace them.

Yes the Virgin cross country class 47's were starting to be unreliable towards the end but they were forty years old!

 

I could write a book on subs, partly down to newer train unreliability, unsuitability and not enough units in the first place. Not to mention NSE taking RRs remainder of 158s to get rid of LHCS on the Waterloo Exeter....

 

The problem with the modern trains in all three TSW countries is that they are too easy to drive and don't ask anything of the player. They are " wash and wear" basically with combined power/ brake handles, easy acceleration, immune to steep grades and largely silent in operation.

BML is among the best constructed routes in the game and I like to drive it, but I often find myself drifting off because of the electrostar type traction.

Unfortunately, DTG and its partners seem to have settled into a repetitive and monotonous pattern of this kind of dlc with the recent releases.

Clearly, it's demographically driven and that's understandable. But the older players who have stuck with DTG for the last 15 years or so need to be catered to and their tastes will tend towards the more traditional loco hauled trains.

Will the US be the last bastion of the loco hauled passenger and freight locomotive?

 

It would be interesting to know what the demographics for model railways/simulators are. I am middle aged but have left model railways behind, mainly due to expense, space, time and I find train simulators are more immersive, but that is just me.

However I do enjoy seeing model railways and have seen often young people operating older period layouts at exhibitions, maybe they are their parents/uncles etc layouts and just enjoy running the trains.

 

I have to say that ‘Re-Education’ is quite the term.

It’s that sort of attitude I often address in these threads, there are people spending a lot of energy trying to convince people of how great older stock is, but how far do you think you’re going to get with that kind of attitude?

Maybe people who don’t know anything about the BR era just aren’t interested? Maybe some are educated but remain uninterested?

I could go either way with the era’s, if it’s interesting I’m all for it, if not then I’ll give it a miss - ECW for example is pretty boring for me, the only interest I ever had in that route, was that at the time it was the UK’s first real modern DLC for TSW, BML on the other hand keeps me coming back, because the route just feels more alive.

TVL I find interesting because of the route, I like the industrial feel & diversity of services, but the 101 pains me on that route, would rather see a pacer.

All things considered if you offered me an electric mainline set in 2010+, or, a sprinter/loco hauled diesel route set in the 80’s/90’s, I’d pick the latter on rolling stock alone - but if you then told me the sprinters come on something like the WCL DLC, I’d take the modern electrics over it. I think the route matters more than the train, an interesting train on a boring route is a non starter for me - this is the biggest issue with SoS for me.

 

Good comments Matt, although a 60 is getting on for 34 years on the Railway. Not the newest kid on the block by any means. I am one of the rare folk who dabbles in sims and modelling. The cost of modelling is huge too but I would say there is quite a demand for stuff such as mk5s as some manufacturers have produced them. Some of the more modern units haven't been seen yet and I suspect some licensing issue maybe with some.

 

Yes I agree with this, I wouldn't expect DTG to abandon its business model. But surely one route out of say five or six being set in the past isn't going to hurt. I find it hard to believe that DTG didn't at least make a profit with the likes of NTP, but obviously I don't know.

I do enjoy the German routes by and large, but I haven't bought many recent routes as they don't offer enough difference as the trains seem largely the same. However, the new route which is being developed will be a day one purchase as it is quite different both in the route and the traction.

 

It's good that enthusiasts are interested in modern stuff it means the hobby has a future. Everyone has a different opinion on what they like and a lot of fans of older stuff are simply saying throw us a bone here. Could be a transition era route doesn't have to be pure BR blue. A lot of fans of older stuff would have picked up Edinburgh to Glasgow on day one if it came with another train and perhaps a branch or two. A lot of criticism may have got jumbled as many of us said if it had been set in an older time it could have had more trains. Not saying that new is bad and old good as such. We just want a railway simulated not a 28 days later feature game.

 

Realistically the player base majority is now on xbox or ps and in the age range of teens upto late 20s? So obviously they want trains from thier generation. OK I get that, so for us older player base that sunk 1000s into ts, we are basically getting told by dtg f'you old lot moneys more important to us, your not having an editor either, so you can't even try and make your own.

Even corporations ain't that narrow minded! Take ford for example. The fiesta is probably one of their best selling models, they still produce other models to cater for people that don't want a fiesta.

 

Well brand new trains are always having to bed in, but the main thing for me is over their lifetime and if you look at anything outside of maybe the deltics in full service which had decent reliability, much of the rest didn't

But either way I don't think you're going to convince the people who want things they see and ride every day that going back to old slow things with extra levers is necessarily going to be a good thing

 

I am not trying to convince anyone to differ from their interests and I would never try to.

I merely would like a simulator which represents as broad as possible different users interests and different parts of railway history, something TSC has managed fairly well, something MSTS managed, something TSW seemed to veer towards at the beginning but has swung away from.

Also I think you will find both the class 37 and 47 were considered to be reliable maids of all work, I don't recall the class 52's being considered unreliable either nor many other classes come to think of it. Obviously as anything mechanical gets older it does tend to develop problems.

 

That's Hornby's opinion. Other manufacturers have different views.

 

Which means we're not addressing the same point...

Only on the loco asset level. I don't see many routes set in the 60s or 70s released by DTG. I know 3rd parties have done backdated routes but that couldn't happen in TSW so the comparrison is moot

From what I've read loads of older classes were ruled out either because of reliability or issues getting parts because they were small batch. Much easier to keep parts going when there's 200 of a unit running around than 20 or 50, and it did help that the 37 and 47 were and are fairly good units anyway for what they do

Either way, again, we're not addressing the same point.

 

UK modern EMU, after EMU after EMU is getting a bit monotonous for me. In the UK there are many second generation DMUs such as the 156,158 etc etc. There are many older locomotives as well such as the Deltic, 25, 60 etc plus the WCML electrics, if it's all the same newer stock DTG are going to alienate those who like older stock. They need to get the right balance.

 

If I read about the early days of the railways, I am surprised to see how technical advanced some stuff was. A steam engine is technically very sophisticated, especially if you consider the overall state of technology when these engines were developed. One of the things I discovered was that round 1913 the first Electric trains were riding in the Netherlands. Before WWII the Dutch railways were well on their way to introduce streamline diesel trains as well as electric trains. This is not the important point. In a ll its clumsiness, it worked and had a major impact on the economic development of the regions were trains were running. The whole operations process was fascinating and very complex. I love railway history and it is far more interesting than driving an ICE with LZB at high speed. The only thing you need to do is acknowledge SIFA, so boring after a while when you are used to the high speeds.

 

When it comes down to it, most of us like to have the possibility to drive the trains that we experienced when we were young. However it's also good to try more modern or even older offerings because the simple fact is we love trains. DTG should (and have done to a certain degree in the past) offer a variety of eras and rolling stock when selecting a route for development to appeal to all enthusiasts. It's interesting to note how one particular DLC will attract someone to the game, who will then be hooked and buy more, even if it's not their principal era or region of interest.

I don't understand why DTG are not churning out a couple of loco/stock DLCs every month to layer on to existing routes, thus enriching the game for all. Problem with branding? Leave the logos off but keep the colours; people would rather do without the branding if it means getting their favourite loco/coach/wagon in the game.

 

And do you think that educating the people who want to slam their trains around at 300kmh about those old kettles with their barely high pressure steam (darn you Boulton and Watt) or early diesels would make the "plastic train brigade" change their mind and look to the past for fun?

 

Speaking for myself, if the E-G had come with a 170 and, perhaps, a Class 37 and been set just a few years ago, I would likely have snapped it up on day one.

Of course, it might still have had similar issues to those it has now, but I'm pretty sure I would have chanced it.

 

I think it best if DTG try and cater for all tastes. I mean yes I do get some fun out of driving the modern stuff but let's face it, if I want to run on London to Brighton there's not much choice but to do it on an Electrostar. Much rather do it with a 4CIG or a 4VEP. As the post above notes if E-G had come with some more vintage traction in an earlier period, I might have swallowed my aversion to Rivet and picked it up on Day 1. I bought the Bremen to Oldenburg route for the 110 and N-wagons. If that had come with another variation on the 146 and Dostos, I likely wouldn't have bothered.

I'm currently really enjoying getting back into SoS (which typing this is now delaying) and I'm eagerly hoping for more steam traction and routes in the game as well as early vintage diesel stuff.

One of the reasons I don't use MSFS very much, is apart from the A310, there are no vintage jetliners. Back in the day when we were taking foreign holidays, we flew on Tristars, DC10's, MD11's and various smaller jets such as 727's, DC9's, 757's etc. all of which I have to wrestle with FS9 or FSX if I want to fly them.

 

And right on cue. Here I am sitting in the cold on Langley Green station as one of these reliable modern trains has broken down and the train cancelled.........again!

Give me a rattly class 116 any day of the week!

 

It's more than just the rolling stock, It's about the size of the railways too! Today most of it is gone. A lot less possibilities on a modern route than a historic route.

 

That awkward moment when the example you picked, the Fiesta, was discontinued last year after a dramatic (and incredibly quick) fall from grace.

 

That’s an interesting point there. It’s been a long time since the older old era routes have been used in a let’s play stream. So maybe dtg are leading their statistics a bit…

 

just do some older routes with Deltic, 25, 60 id pay for these any day of the week. give me BR blue any day

 

It's still a example. You can still buy them, it's only because the countries where it sells best are banning petrol an diesel vehicles in the near future, that they are shifting to the puma. Currently a hybrid and soon to be fully electric.

For a car that's outlived the capri, cortina, sierra, granada, escort, orion, mondeo, and I'm sure there's more! I'd say it's a best seller.

 

To be pedantic, the Deltics* were replaced on the ECML by HSTs in the late 70s, electrification came along a decade or so later.

* mine (and many others') favourite BR diesel loco. I used to go down to the station at Hartlepool to stand by the one a day we used to see as it was setting off. The sound of a high-revving 3,300hp (actually 2x1,650hp) diesel engine is not soon forgotten.

 

Also, Deltics saw regular service across the Trans pennine route in their later years.

 

The 757 is coming later this year.

 

Well it makes sense. Model railways are an expensive hobby. For the price of a TSW route you can't even get a proper model train set. So modelling is mostly for those who can afford it, grown ups with disposable income, while simulators are more affordable for young gamers. Of course, there will always be exceptions and overlap, but the basic demogrsphics are there.

Though I don't know if it really affects taste. I would imagine most railfans prefer older stuff, especially because they will feel more familiar, as many old rolling stock will remain in service for 30, 40 even 50 years after they have been built.

 

I gave my 14 year old son access to my pc to give TSW3 a go. Firstly I got him to drive the modern stuff. A couple of the German emu's (one being the ICE), London Commuter then SEHS's 395. After I had him try the Tees Valley 37, 101 and the 08. Finally I put him on SoS driving the Jubilee.
I then asked him what loco's he preferred.
1.The 395 was his favourite
2 London Commuter 377 and 387
3. The German emu's
4. It was a joint 4th with the 37 and the 08
5. The 101
6. the Jubilee.

When I asked him why he made these choices he said.. The 395 and the London Commuter loco's it was more like playing a computer game. The controls are simple and easy to operate. The German loco's are a bit more complicated especially the ICE as they take more to set up to get them to work.
The 37 and the 08 are ok but feel a bit clunky and slow. and the breaks are rubbish.
The 101 is to fiddley the way you have to change gear is stupid! and the breaks are also stupid because you just get up speed then you have to start stopping again for the next station! Stupid design! His words Lol!
The steam train is the worst. It's to slow and it has to many levers to pull and turn, they are all over the place!
So I asked him which one would he spend his pocket many on..
The 395 route and the London Commuter followed by the German trains.
I then asked him why those..
Because driving them is more like playing a game. Once you get used to setting them up, you can just get in them and go, and they can go fast and still stop where you want them to. Not like the others, they are to old!

That the view of my 14 year old son, who only plays Fortnite and Batman games on his PS4.
Though he does love real live steam loco's. He's one of those that DTG Matt mentions in his post! Loves steam but not in a game. What a Traitor!

 

The 101 was often negatively commented on when released. Unsure if that was being it layered in a few places or that it was a bit involved on the driving side. I guess we have stepped into the gamers world now with easier controlled required. I guess that rules out an autumn freight on the West Highland with a type 2 being popular with the younger crowd. Was why I was so put out that Glasgow to Edinburgh was modern day. Its one that could have been a lot more involving but hey there's TMS and some lifts.

 

Probably because of people trying to get used to lapped brakes when they'd been used to stepped brakes until then