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Dtg's Reasoning For The Wrong Dostos

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Aran, Apr 29, 2021.

  1. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    -Matt Peddlesten:
    "Fundementally, on the outside, the coach looks exactly the same.And you're sitting there looking at it thinking 'And why did that take a huge amount of time to do?'"

    Tiefeinstig Dosto.jpg

    So, firstly, they do not look the same. They are both red, yes. They are both double deck coaches, yes. But they are not the same, and most people will be able to see a clear difference.

    And secondly, the excuse just doesn't work given the rest of the rolling stock included, if both the 112 and the 182 would be new Locos and were built from scratch I would've accepted their reasoning and moved on. But in it's current state, both locos are reused and they couldn't even make a new passenger coach to make it accurate. That is just wrong and shows bad priorities.

    DTG's approach is nothing other than frustrating and annoying.
     
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  2. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    DTG helps the planet by recycling trains. I think it's a good thing overall ...
     
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  3. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    For me the appearance of the coaches isn't the most important aspect, it's the effects it has on the rest. In the preview stream we could see NPCs glitching out while exiting the coaches because the height of the exits was just plain wrong, and then, as cherry on top, Matt fell down the gap while exiting himself. If the lead developer himself experiences this kind of thing while exiting the coaches, I most definetly will too. The people at DTG, especially Matt, always come across as really driven and exited about their own game, yet they do not notice things like this don't and get annoyed by them?

    If the time would have gone into something new, like a unique and brand new loco, or freight rolling stock, I'd understand. However, the 182 is pretty much a reskin and the 112 is a modified 143 model. And the freight wagons are all ones we've seen before too, and it's not like German railways have a shortage of freight rolling stock variety in real life.

    All in all, Hamburg-Lübeck makes me feel not only dissapointed, but also afraid the devs have lost their passion for creating new things and are just choosing the easiest way.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  4. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    We need a Petition to change all The wrong stuff and included the high entry Dostos.
    Even the Windows are completely different.

    Also the Destination boards looks really off without the Line Number RE8, RE80 or RB81 and the 112 headlight is wrong and awful.
     
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  5. zappatime

    zappatime Member

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    I thought that, fundamentally, they were going for accuracy in their depiction of stock in the sim, but this is a cheap cop-out bodge that stands out like a sore thumb, come on DTG you can do better than this!
     
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  6. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Just remember the complete wrong Rolling material on Ruhr Sieg Nord.
    It was a Karlsruhe Steuerwagen with n-Wagen and the 143 Loco, there was Never Dostos to Siegen.
    586CEA7A-88F4-4579-BDAE-5F065BE87FBA.jpeg
     
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  7. mrcharliemiggins2.0

    mrcharliemiggins2.0 Well-Known Member

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    DTGs decision on this was defiantly a big mistake, surely they would know this much criticism would come from it? And then they just come out poor reasons like that.
     
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  8. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    Of course Matt notices them, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets annoyed by them aswell. But he wants to sell the game, so he makes out nothing is wrong with it. Wrong Coaches? Make out they're exactly the same. Passengers flying in the air? Look away.
    One thing that really shows that is his description of the new PIS, he makes out it's the best thing to have made it to TSW, saying it helps devs and shortens dev time. Yet it's pretty obviously a downgrade, it can't even show line numbers and none of the ICs on HRR show the correct off-world destination. Not to mention the fact that you can't change them yourself as you once could.
     
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  9. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    We can make as many petitions as we like, the people who have the power to make the decisions won't care. I'm sure a lot of the devs will, but they don't have a say.
     
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  10. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    DTG say it themselves: vote with your wallet, don't buy it if it isn't worth the price in your opinion.
     
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  11. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    The new PIS is awfull. It looks incorrect and takes away an interactive element. The old system wasn't perfect either, as the destinations were limited to the route the loco came with, but it was better in my opinion. Ideally the options on the old system would change depending on the route, but still require you to select them.
     
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  12. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    Imo it's a minor difference. Visibly different yes. Entirety different, not to me. If it meant rebuilding the entire coaches from scratch to have the doors moved up and to the left/right a bit then I don't see the point in doing it if tight on time which I think played a factor. It would be nice to have the the actual dostos used irl for this route at some point in the future.
     
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  13. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Just play the Benny Hill music and it sums it all up. Not paying for this.
     
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  14. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    The tightness on time did play a large factor in both this and the IC cab car not coming. However, that goes two ways. Yes DTG is allowed to reuse things to save time, but if less time and effort went into something, I'm not prepared to pay as much.

    It also wouldn't be as much of a problem to me if the low entry coaches didn't cause NPCs to glitch out and players to fall into the gap.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  15. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    That would be the best option, it's also what I though they were going for when they originally announced Dynamic PIS on the HMA stream. Give each route a list of destinations with all the associated flim-flam like via stops and train number. Then have each train on that route read the destinations from that list. That way, we would gain all the positive aspects without losing any of the negative ones. Sure, it would require more work, but it's worth having a decent system.
     
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  16. pacificorca#1435

    pacificorca#1435 Active Member

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    To my mind the really big issue here is the fact that the dostos' doors are not the same height as the platforms, that's something that even the most casual of players would notice. I know for myself I would have no clue if a headlight was the wrong size, but I would absolutely notice doors not being at platform height.

    Now if DTG is truly pressed for time with their development teams, presumably with the upcoming Rush Hour content, then it seems to me that they could have either delayed this route or promised (and then delivered on) the correct Dostos being added as an update after rush hour gets put out. That would be annoying initially but would at least afford them an opportunity to build trust and confidence with the community that they will delivery on their promises. I get that it may require time to redesign the door location and interior but isn't that literally why we pay for the routes? The cost of previous routes has already included the development time to design new rolling stock. This feels like a compounding unforced error from DTG and is a real shame because so much of the route's scenery looked absolutely fantastic on stream today.
     
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  17. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Of course. They should have included the correct Dostos but if they can't for whatever reason, at least use the same "artistic license" to change the platform height. It is unacceptable to release this route as it is.
     
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  18. Slowboystruggles

    Slowboystruggles New Member

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    On top of that, since the new loco is a re-used 143, it also seems to have the same sound issues that were introduced with tsw2. Might have been the stream volume, but I couldn't make out any FML sounds.
     
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  19. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    It seems like after the initial batch of TSW2 routes we have entered into an alternating great-bad cycle:

    Isle of Wight Bad
    Hauptstrecke München - Augsburg Great
    LGV Méditerranée: Marseille - Avignon Bad
    SE High Speed: London - Faversham Great
    Arosa Line Bad
    Clinchfield Railroad: Elkhorn - Dante Great
    Hauptstrecke Hamburg - Lübeck Bad

    I hope between now and HHL's release we see some changes/improvements; but I fear it may be too far into the dev cycle to radically change anything. The dosto in HHL is clearly not right for the route; even the most casual player would notice something was off.
     
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  20. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I think the majority of people would vote SEHS anything but great.

    Poor route building, laughable scenery and the 395 isn’t even worth a mention. The 465 saved the route but I feel like standards are slipping again. Not to mention to increasing amount of recycled DLC being used.
     
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  21. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    I probably should have prefaced that post with a big IMO. Apart from a few scenery issues I absoutely love SEHS...it's definately one of my favorite routes in TSW/TSW2...it just has a great mix of passenger/freight and high speed. I personally wouldn't say the 465 'saved' the route...but it definately enhanced it.
     
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  22. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    Not to get on the wrong Dostos bandwagon, but I think it definitely leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Its clear that they have noticed the dissatisfaction of the community but chose to actively ignore it. I am disappointed with Matt mentioning its a lot of work for nothing. Its a sim and people pay huge amounts of money for it so its not nothing. End of the day, its labor that is being paid for. If the BR112 is the only new loco and the BR 182 is a reskin, I am not sure why they wouldn't just make this Dostos as the routes usually come with 2 rolling stock. Disappointed. I am still going to buy it but hope they will fix it.
     
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  23. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    As far as we can tell, 182 is 99% copy/paste and 112 is 80%. The only ones who redo things from scratch are we who cannot save and therefore reuse a livery. Those are indeed redone from scratch.
     
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  24. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    They fixed only the lights and the Cab on the 112, the rest is always the 143 with all the Bugs from TSW 2
     
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  25. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    So why, in SPG, did they give us both the GP38-2 and SD40-2? Fundamentally, on the outside, the engine looks exactly the same (at least to casual observers, but not to the obsessive railfans/train geeks who make up TSW's core player base). Why go through the motions of differentiating the 375 and 377? Why put the 423 in HMA when they could have just recycled the incorrect 422 yet again? Why, for that matter, in Fishing Sim do they differentiate between brook trout and steelhead trout?
     
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  26. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    They seem to be constantly under-budgeting both in terms of time and money for the rolling stock recently.

    Not enough time to make the cabcar, not enough time to change the Dostos. 313 and 314 very similar, 375 and 377 very similar, a new 182, a familiar 112...Diesel legends with nothing new in rolling stock, out of era route etc and so on.

    As pointed out above it seems some projects get the full works, for me CRR and HMA are standouts, some of the others are less than stellar and some are very shonky. It was revealing when it was mentioned the excellent 101 had 10 weeks of work on it that DTG thought ought to have taken 4.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  27. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, that's not exactly the case. Maik posted that DTG paid him for 4 weeks, but he put in another 6 gratis because he wanted the loco to be outstanding.

    Having said that, between this and the QA bottleneck something has gone awry with DTG's project scheduling. COVID I am sure had played a role, but.....
     
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  28. Jalio

    Jalio Member

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    Absolutely agree. That route made me disappear from TSW for two months it was that ****. Terrible everything. The 465 did somewhat save it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    And since 2007 the RE16 and RB91 have been operated by Abellio, not DB, using Stadler Flirts, not Dostos or Silbelinge.
     
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  30. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Good point but Dovetail Games doesn't have the License for Dutch Railways NS to which Abellio NRW is part of. That's why RSN has DB Traffic red trains due to DTG lacking NS Abellio license. Had it been Arriva Trains easy to add their logo since it's part of Deutsche Bahn. The same way as Eurobahn in Onsabrück Bad Bentheim Captrain Netherlands is part of SNCF.
     
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  31. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    I was very disappointed with Matt’s response. Rightly or wrongly, I just took it as the team being lazy to meet a self-imposed deadline. It’s not really good enough.

    Edit: If this mindset continues within DTG, I will stop buying content, even if discounted and I’ve bought nearly everything so far for TSW 2020 and TSW 2.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  32. eire007

    eire007 Active Member

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    Sorry but I think you have too much time on your hands f this is a huge concern. Don’t buy it. Simple.
     
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  33. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    For me?
    I feel there have been numerous missed opportunities.
    Why?
    Because of Dovetail Games’ lazyiness and they love saving time so they can make more money because more things are being released.
    To me, this is utter stupidity. The person who made up this policy should be warned
    Oh wait... there’s more?
    Dovetail games have a history of rolling stock inaccuracies- rhur sieg nord, Hamburg lubeck and legends of gwe are only to name a few...
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  34. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    This route didn't need much to make it easier on the wallet.
    1 A new loco.
    2.A new passenger coach.
    3.A new freight car.
    Just 1 of these options would have given people something to be interested in to look forward to.but we are offered nothing so there not much to be excited about.
     
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  35. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, and matts reasoning behind all of this is utter stupidity and garbage. Clearly shows something murky is happening at dtg
     
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  36. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    I feel like this situation would be similar for us US players if Dovetail used a Budd High-level instead of a Pullman or Bombardier Superliner car for an Amtrak train, yeah they look similar, but there are not the same.
    amtrak_coach_baggage.jpg amt39901L.jpg
    1920px-Amtrak-Norman.jpg

    Do the content right, not lazy...
     
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  37. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    I think you’re missing the key point of the argument. Yes, we don’t have to buy it, but unless DTG hears this feedback loud and clear, nothing will change. It needs to understand why it’s customers are frustrated with this decision. I don’t think that is being unreasonable, especially when feedback is encouraged.
     
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  38. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed , it is quicker to reuse than start over , it would just be pointless
     
  39. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    When hearing that one line, the first thing that crossed my mind was; "these doors are placed at a different height for a reason, to match platform height, so it's a fundementally different thing, and things could fundementally go wrong, or fundamentally break immersion, when door height and platform height don't match..."

    I think it's a very lame excuse. Sure, creating new Dostos would take development time (and thus costs), but this is just silly.

    Ah well, Hamburg-Lübeck wasn't one of my favourite routes in Train Simulator anyways, I'm no fan of the BR182, and the rolling stock is very similar to what we already have, so I guess I could easily skip this route.
     
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  40. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if Dtg measure the complaints on here with the number of items sold and have an algorithm to judge their relevance.
    Being totally ignorant of the subtleties of German coaching stock I suspect I’m probably with the majority of players who wouldn’t have noticed the inaccuracies.

    Sadly anything can be made perfect if you have the time, and or money, but firms are subject to commercial reality.
    The chances of changes at the this stage are pretty remote regardless how much protest there is.
    Calling the devs “lazy” is just lazy thinking.
    They have to work to guidelines, restrictions and budgets like everyone else.
     
  41. Fitz

    Fitz Active Member

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    Looking at the stream last night, it looked like they made the platforms lower to match the wrong Dostos? Can anyone confirm.
     
  42. mrcharliemiggins2.0

    mrcharliemiggins2.0 Well-Known Member

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    That would not surprise me, but I’m not sure. At one station Matt did fall off of the train onto the track because of the higher platform than the doors. But knowing DTG that is probably the case, or at least they lowered them a small bit because of the dostos.
     
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  43. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think many are calling the devs "lazy", I'm certainly not, it's the decisions at higher (management) level where the lazy decisions are being made, sure the devs may have some input like being asked "How long would it take to create x,y,z" and if the management don't like the answer then it'll be, "oh bugger that, we'll use a,b,c instead to save time and get the route out there asap"
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  44. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Personally I looked at the route and just thought it’s too similar to others so not convinced it’s a day one for me. I like a couple routes in one country but we have what 5 or 6 for Germany now?

    id take another country now (I say as I sit on my hypocritical pedestal with loads of uk routes I might add :|:))
     
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  45. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Surely second to accuracy of a route, should be accuracy of stock?

    If it is wrong, it is wrong. For many it won't matter, I wouldn't know as I know little about German trains, just they seem to be mostly red! However, if you know the route intimately or are a particular enthusiast of German railways you will notice. For many the incorrect stock, no matter how trivial the difference to the lay person, is enough to put them off. For some accuracy in what is supposed to be a simulator is paramount. For many it doesn't matter a jot and that is fine. But being criticised for being enthusiastic about accuracy is a bit out of order as it shows a passionate interest.

    If we are going to be hamstrung with what we can do in terms of making scenarios and with what stock comes with a route and is used in service mode, at least get the stock correct.

    Otherwise TSW will just end up being a simulator for those who just like trains, like simulators or have a vague interest in railways. Enthusiasts will end up going elsewhere or back to TS1 as I have mostly done.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  46. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Surely these could also be replaced by the Dostos, just one less door and a bit of shape difference, not worth the effort, just paint them silver :D
     
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  47. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    Exactly. They market is as a digital equivalent of a model train collection. They should make some effort to at least make it so. I am totally fine with paying a bit more if that's what it takes to get the right stuff. Compounding the problem is the fact that they have stated they are not going to release the Cab Car for BR101 as a separate DLC because its DLC for DLC. So it will never get made. That just drives me nuts.
     
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  48. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    This is where I sense a disconnection between DTG and the (vocal) player base.
    In cases like this, if they had maybe put up a poll, asking questions like "would you deem a control car mandatory for purchase" and "how much would you be willing to pay for a 101 with 2 wagons, how much for the complete set" (regardless of if a price change was ever an option, it is the data behind that that matters) lots of issues could have been avoided. And I mean either we might have received the complete train set or not at all.
    They must have known, same with the Dostos now. Maybe they did not expect as much controversy as we are having now, but they must have expected it and still decided against allocating time and resources to improve that.
    This should tell you who their target audience is...
     
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  49. Agent Qracle RUS

    Agent Qracle RUS Well-Known Member

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    It looks like the British (DTG) are completely off the ground - it seems my transition from TSW to Sim Rail 2021 will be faster than I expected)
     
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  50. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if they lowered the platforms a bit, but for sure it was not enough. In the following video you can see the NPC is stuck while trying to get on the platform. After that you can see how Matt falls while trying to get on the platform, then uses the keyboard shortcut to get back to the cab (can almost hear Sam yelling "Matt, everyone saw that!").



    Times:
    32:34 - NPC having problems to get to the platform.
    33:06 - Matt falls while trying to get to the platform.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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