East Coast Main Line South: London–peterborough

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by WonterRail, Jul 31, 2021.

?
  1. BR Class 43 HST, BR Class 365, BR Class 313 & BR Class 387

    6.3%
  2. BR Class 43 HST, BR Class 365, BR Class 313 & BR Class 91

    41.1%
  3. BR Class 43 HST, BR Class 365, BR Class 313 & BR Class 800/801

    52.6%
  1. WonterRail

    WonterRail Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2018
    Messages:
    621
    Likes Received:
    2,779
    So it's time to talk about another route that feature in that poll of which 'Rush Hour' style routes would you most like to see in TSW2. This time we are going to tackle the second most voted on route in that poll and a route that seems to feature quite heavily in the most suggested TSW2 routes out there and what I am referring to is the East Coast Main Line, or more specifically, the section between London King's Cross and Peterborough. But first, a reminder of what I said last time.

    What he said in that post

    Click the link here if you want to see all the other routes that featured in that thread and also vote in the poll if you haven't already:

    So with that out the way, lets get into talking about this route in more depth.

    The Route Itself

    When it comes to discussions about what is among the most suggested TSW2 routes, this route always is at the top or somewhere near the top, and for good reason. This route is one of the most recognisable railway lines in the UK, if not the world as it is one of two principle main lines that heads between London and Scotland (the other being of course of West Coast Main Line) and in Train Simulator terms, this route has been adapted multiple times. Probably one of the more recognisable is the section between York and Newcastle which was available way back when Rail Simulator launch back in 2009, before that game when on to become Railworks and eventually into the TS Classic that we all know today. There was even a third-party adaptation in 2018 made by Creative Rail that kinda joined that section to the section that I will getting into very shortly.

    But for this suggestion, I am going to be focusing on what I believe is the most promising section when it comes to the discussion of busy 'Rush Hour' style routes and that is the section out of London heading as far as Peterborough, the version of it over on TS Classic being a route that I have great fondness over as it was one of the first route I've played with when I first got that game for Christmas in 2014.

    Just like the last route I did, I have create a map of what I think this route would look like in TSW2. So without further ado, here it is:

    Map of the Whole Route:
    East Coast Main Line South 1.PNG
    Section between King's Cross/St Pancras & Alexandra Palace (With Northern City Line to Moorgate)
    East Coast Main Line South 2.PNG
    Section between Alexandra Palace & Stevenage (With Hertford Loop Line)
    East Coast Main Line South 3.PNG
    Section around Peterborough
    East Coast Main Line South 4.PNG
    Keys:

    Black Line=Route
    Blue Dots=Stations
    Green Dots=Depots
    Red Dots=Sidings

    So once again to go over some facts, the total length of the route shown in the map is 104.7 miles (168.5 km). To break it down, that length includes the main East Coast Main Line between London and Peterborough (76.4 miles or 123 km), The Hertford Loop Line that runs between Alexandra Palace and Stevenage via Hertford North (22.5 miles or 36.2 km), The Northern City Line down to Moorgate from Finsbury Park (3.2 miles or 5.1 km), the small section that runs down to the Thameslink platforms at St Pancras International (0.83 miles or 1.34 km) and an additional 1.7 miles (2.8 km) that make up the various depots and sidings along this route. Speaking of which, the route also has a total of 41 stations, 3 depots (Hornsey EMU Depot, Bound Green TMD and Peterborough Maintenance Depot with the later being used for freight locomotives) and 2 normal sidings (both around Peterborough.

    I know that the total length of this route is longer than 100 miles when I said that I would be sticking to route shorter than that, but to be honest, I'm alright with this being slightly longer. Partly because I have since learnt that this game is capable is routes longer than 100 miles, it's just that a route of that long would take quite a long time to make, but mainly because if you wanted to have a route be the first to break that milestone, this wouldn't be too bad of a shout. The reason I say this is because this route isn't just a 100 mile A to B route, but rather it is spread out over two paths between Alexandra Palace and Stevenage and also has two underground branches to Moorgate and the Thameslink platforms at St Pancras. Plus, this route would also have quite a bit of traffic running on it with a large diversity of locos coming with it, with would also offer a wide variety of gameplay on this route from fast express services to slower commuter services to rapid transit metro style services of those that serve the Northern City Line.

    Another thing that I would also like to add there is that this route would be set during 2019. During the time when most of the old rolling stock that ran to Moorgate was being replace and also after the opening of the Canal tunnels that connected the East Coast Main Line up to Thameslink, which allowed them to run and take over many of the Great Northern services on this route.

    So with all that said, lets move on to some real-life pictures

    Pictures of the route in real-life

    London King's Cross
    [​IMG]
    London St. Pancras Thameslink
    [​IMG]
    Finsbury Park
    [​IMG]
    Drayton Park
    [​IMG]
    Moorgate
    [​IMG]
    Alexandra Palace[​IMG]
    Welwyn Garden City
    [​IMG]
    Hertford North
    [​IMG]
    Stevenage
    [​IMG]
    Hitchin
    [​IMG]
    St. Neots
    [​IMG]

    Peterborough
    [​IMG]
    Available Locos

    Now we come to the fun part, the locos that would be available with this route. The reason for this is because I think this route has the potential to come with 5 locos, 1 would be new and the other 5 would be reused from other routes from the TSW2 loco roster in either a different livery or with minor revisions. These 5 locos would be...

    LNER BR Class 800/801
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Probably what would be the star loco of this route, both of these units were brought in as part of the Intercity Express Program to replace the existing high-speed stock on both the Great Western Main Line and the East Coast Main Line. The units brought into service here were given the name Azuma and are made up of 23 Class 800's which are Bi-Mode units capable of running on both Diesel and Electric power and 42 Class 801's which solely run in electric mode and both formed of either 5 or 9 car formations. These units would take charge of the high-speed express services between London and Peterborough. Some run between the two stations non-stop, some make a stop at Stevenage on the way out, some stop at Stevenage but then run all the way out without making a stop at Peterborough and some even run the whole line without stopping anywhere other than King's Cross.

    LNER BR Class 43 HST+BR Mark 3 Coaches[​IMG]
    Since this route is set just before they were retired from this route, we can have a HST come with this route. I mean, what would this route be without it? But in all seriousness, this loco would be pretty much be the loco currently available with Great Western Express, but in LNER livery and maybe with a couple of upgrades. But regardless, these would support the Azuma's on this route by adding a second layer of High Speed services between London and Peterborough, pretty much doing the same as the previous loco I have just mentioned

    Great Northern BR Class 365
    [​IMG]
    What were once the staple of many commuter services out of King's Cross, this unit is part of the Networker family, just like the Class 465 that we currently have now. However, these unit have a lot of differences. One being the fact that they are powered by an overhead pantograph (although the first 16 of them were fitted with third-rail shoes when they operated on the Southeastern network before being transferred to the Great Northern where they would have their shoes removed) but the major difference is the front end which was modified around 2001/02 in order to accommodate a new air conditioning unit in the drivers cab. These units would operate commuter services between London and Peterborough as well as operating some services that don't stop anywhere other than King's Cross that turn off at Hitchin towards Peterborough.

    Great Northern BR Class 387/1
    [​IMG]
    These were originally introduced on the Thameslink routes as kinda a stopgap measure for the Class 700's in order to allow the 319 which ran on those routes at the time to cascade to other railway routes in the UK. After the 700 were eventually introduced, they were cascaded over to Great Northern to support and eventually replace the 365's that ran on this route. These units would substitute into the 365 services running between London and Peterborough and between London and Hitchin before turning off towards Cambridge/Ely and King's Lynn. But these units would also add Thameslink services running out of London St Pancras towards either Hitchin (before turning off towards Cambridge) or Peterborough and also at peak towards Welwyn Garden City.

    Great Northern BR Class 313
    [​IMG]
    Like with the HST earlier, as this route would be set just before they were retired, we can have the loco that formerly served the Northern City Line section of this route. These locos are basically the same as the 314 available with Cathcart Circle and the 313 that's coming to East Coastway with an overhead pantograph. They are painted in the old First Capital Connect livery with Great Northern logos and like I said earlier, would serve the Northern City Line out of Moorgate towards either Hertford North, Welwyn Garden City or Stevenage.

    What would freight be like on this route?

    Now I have had a couple of ideas about how freight could be implemented onto this route, but I feel the best way to tackle freight on this route for the time being is to make it an additional using three other UK routes in TSW2. Two of these routes would add freight services, which would be:
    • East Coastway: This would add services using the EWS Class 66 and JNA wagons available with the route.
    • Great Western Express: This would add two types of freight services. One would be using the FKA Container wagons and another using the HKA Hopper waongs. Both of these services would use the DB/EWS Class 66's available with that route.
    Either way, freight services on this route would operate between Finsbury Park and Peterborough, with services coming into/out of Finsbury Park from the North London Line via either Copenhagen Junction from Camden Town or from Canonbury via Drayton Park and would also make use of the Maintenance Depot up at Peterborough.

    The third route is actually a little bonus surprise. It is Southeastern High Speed and this involves using the Class 395 'Javelin' running over the lines heading into/out of King's Cross as it enter's/exits St Pancras via HS1. Not something that would impact the traffic on the main route, but just some fun little thing to look out for while coming into/going out off King's Cross.

    Future Loco Add-Ons

    I'm sure there are many ideas for locos that could be added to this route in the future, but for the case of this suggestion and for keeping it to within the timeframe that this route is set in, I am going to focus on two in particular

    LNER BR Class 91+BR Mark 4 Coaches & DVT
    [​IMG]
    Also known as the Intercity 225, these trains are made up of a Class 91, a rake of 9 Mark 4 coaches with a Driving Van Trailer at the back and where, like the HST, the mainstay of East Coast Main Line for many years and some are still running with LNER even to this day. These would sub into the Class 801 services running high-speed services that would basically do the same as the two main express locos that come with this route.


    Great Northern BR Class 717
    [​IMG]
    These are the locos that eventually replaced the 313's on the Northern City Line section of the route. They are similar to the Class 700 that serve Thameslink and the 707 that operated for South Western Railway, but with major differences. These units are only 6 cars, the same as the Class 707 and shorter than the 8/12 cars of the 700's. But these units also feature emergency fold-down doors on either end of the train which are used should these trains get stuck on one of the tunnel on the section down to Moorgate. These units, like I said, would substitute into the existing 313 services on the route operating down the Northern City Line section down to Moorgate and out towards either Hertford North/Welwyn Garden City or Stevenage.

    Conclusion

    I get the feeling that the discussion of whether East Coast Main Line will ever come to TSW2 is a case of not if, but when. Whether it would be this segment or a different segment of route, it will still be a landmark moment in this games history to see a section of one of the UK's most iconic main line railways be adapted for TSW2, and from going by what we have just gone through here, this would be the most promising section to adapt. This section of the route kinda bares resemblance to the likes of Great Western Express and Hauptstrecke München – Augsburg (two of my favourite routes in TSW2) as they all busy main lines that come out of a large, central, iconic station. This route however would have a couple of thing up it's sleeve to help it stand out from those two as it would have two different paths to take between Alexandra Palace and Stevenage, have a bonus branch down to Moorgate and could have a large diversity of trains come with it, even if most of them were reused from other routes, all helping to create what could be the largest, busiest and most diverse route in all of TSW2.

    If you have any ideas for this route or you feel like there's something that can be done differently with this route, feel free to let me know in the replies below.

    That's all from me and I'll see you all for the next route.

    EDIT 29/8/2022: But what, there's more! Click here to take you to part 2 of this suggestion, where I talk about possibly extending this route suggestion to Cambridge.

    Image Sources:
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2022
    • Like Like x 23
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  2. 59321747

    59321747 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2020
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    284
    Support, the route can be extended to Edinburgh
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2021
    Messages:
    6,528
    Likes Received:
    3,790
    For the Train Sim 21 version of London to Peterbrough you get class 801 as standard why not make that and HST as Standard along with Class 387/1. However the catch with this is that Class 387/1 will be a reskin of BML Class 387/2 . North American routes are susceptible to the reskinning now they're going to give the same treatment to the British routes.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2020
    Messages:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    1,285
    I would include the Class 387, 717 and 801 as standard, then follow on with the Class 91, 313 and 365 as an expansion pack.

    Also it would probably be more sensible to either include a longer route to Peterborough but without branches, or a shorter route to Stevenage with branches. Including all would likely take too long to produce, unless they increase the price to compensate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2021
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  5. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2021
    Messages:
    710
    Likes Received:
    1,683
    A good detailed suggestion, would be a fantastic route.

    If the licence was available, I'd like a Thameslink Class 700s for the journey to Peterborough. Then, at the same time, this DLC could be used to benefit BML. For example, you could drive most of the Peterborough-Horsham service i.e. as far as Finsbury Park on the ECML, then on the BML route you could drive the same service between East Croydon-Three Bridges. Then, you've got TL Cambridge services too etc.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2021
    Messages:
    6,528
    Likes Received:
    3,790
    The missing section between the two is Thameslink core which has ETCS ATO Level 2. Therefore it plays like Haputstrecke München Augsburg S-Bahn LZB. Depot Run for Class 700 is BML. ECML depot runs are for class 800/801 out of Bounds Green
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. kenobi#1878

    kenobi#1878 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2021
    Messages:
    304
    Likes Received:
    297
    As stated, it’s not if but when.
    I personally think that as a standard we should have the:
    225 sets (idk about anyone else but when I think about the ecml it’s the 225s that come to mind)
    365 (it’s a real classic. And if it’s in the intercity days we can have the original front end)
    And the 313/1 ( it’s the OG Moorgate train, innit)
     
    • Like Like x 4
  8. WonterRail

    WonterRail Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2018
    Messages:
    621
    Likes Received:
    2,779
    As a result of the poll I did (since there was a clear winner by far) I have decided to make some changes to my suggestion
    • The Class 800/801 is now included as part of the locos that would be available with this route to give this at least route one (or two) new loco(s). The Class 91 meanwhile would come later as a loco add-on.
    • Since I don't want to leave this loco out and given the fact that making a loco add-on out of it would be pointless and a waste of time, I have decided to add the 387/1 as one of the locos available with this route, which would take the total number of locos available with this route up to 5 (or 6).
    • Since this route would now be set in 2019, when many of the stock feature here would either being withdrawn or being brought into service, I have decided to add the branch down to St Pancras Thameslink in order to add Thameslink services and give them a decent place to start.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2021
    • Like Like x 4
  9. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2021
    Messages:
    6,528
    Likes Received:
    3,790
    Good idea and if you are wondering you can also try adding in Brighton Main Line Class 387/2 because in some cases Brighton Lovers Walk TMD lack to the facility to do major overhaul therefore they have to be sent up to Hornsey TMD or Bounds Green Depot
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. trainsimgaming1001

    trainsimgaming1001 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2021
    Messages:
    436
    Likes Received:
    524
    That would never happen. Even the TS Classic London to Edinburgh is not Official, it is just a merge of 4 Routes. Dovetail would have to make about 8 Routes separately for that to work. Plus, the size, even with compression, would be astronomicial
     
  11. WonterRail

    WonterRail Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2018
    Messages:
    621
    Likes Received:
    2,779
    Oh.. hey there, been a while since I've been here. But there's a good reason for me to return. I have just done a small update regarding a potential layer for this route, but the real reason for coming back here is that I want to propose a little extension for this route suggestion, inspired by the updated Southeastern High Speed for TSW3 that's been extended to Ashford and Dartford.

    I know there are plenty of directions you could extend the route in, but I have for you is one that I feel would complete the route quite nicely, as well as solve one of the biggest problems I have with the original route suggestion. I should say that this is not something that would come with the route at release, but rather something that would add later down the road as a possible extension. Hence the whole point of this.

    So without further ado, let's talk about the possible Cambridge extension to ECML South, and I've updated my map of the original route suggestion, to show it all off in more depth.

    Map of the Extension (Marked in purple)
    ECML Cambridge Extension 1.PNG
    Section between Hitchin & Daldock
    ECML Cambridge Extension 2.PNG
    Section between Shepreth & Cambridge (With Freight branch to CEMEX Barrington)
    ECML Cambridge Extension 3.PNG

    So this extension would add another 30.2 Miles (48.5 km) to the route, which includes the main route between Hitchin and Cambridge (28 Miles or 45.1 km), along with the 1.8 Mile (2.8 km) freight branch to CEMEX Barrington. There are also 9 stations, 1 depot at Cambridge (Coldham Lane) and two sidings on the Barrington Branch and at Letchworth for passenger trains. This in all takes the total length up to 134.9 Miles (217.1 km) with 49 stations and 4 depots/sidings each.

    So the big question your probably asking here is, why extend the line to Cambridge? Well, it's simple, it's to solve the issue regarding the Great Northern services on this route. You see nowadays, Great Northern don't really run much up the main ECML portion to Peterborough, except for during peak-times, as they are now down by Thameslink. Most of the time now, they turn off at Hitchin and head towards Cambridge and then towards either Ely or Kings Lynn. Now thisn wouldn't be too much of problem... if it wasn't for the fact that these services don't stop at anywhere other than King's Cross while entering/exiting the route. Maybe they stop at some of the intermediate stations like Stevenage at peak times. But as far as I could tell, that's pretty much all they do on this route nowadays. This makes adding Great Northern services pretty difficult as, while you would get all the Moorgate services here, you wouldn't have much in terms of the longer-distant commuter trains as they don't stop anywhere meaningfull on there way too and from Cambridge, except for when doing the peak time Peterborough services. So they would have to be AI services and that's it.

    But extending the route to Cambridge solves that problem, so now you can have all the Great Northern services that come in and out of King's Cross, without having to make a large chunk of them AI only. Admittedly, I could have gone further to at least Ely at minimum, but I'll see how you all react first before making any further changes to this extension. Could there have been a better route to do tha this? Maybe. I could've doubled the existing route all the way to somewhere like Doncaster or York, but that part is already quite long as is, so I thought something like this might actually add some interesting and slightly different gameplay compared to the high-speed running you get on the main King's Cross-Peterborough part of the route, with a more commuter-orientated experience.

    As for locos, I would just use the Class 365 and 387/1 I suggested to come witht the route, which now makes you question how do you go about the task of adding these locos to this route. Do you put both of them in together? Or do you put one in with the route or save the other for the extension? I guess you can decide on that one. But this also might be a good excuse to throw a Thameslink loco into this extension. Maybe a Class 700, but I think that's best saved as a loco add-on for something like SEHS or London Commuter. But regardless of that situation, there would be some new rolling stock that would come with the extension and that would be the Class 66/7 in GBRF livery, which would operating on the freight line to CEMEX Barrington using a VTG liveried JNA wagon, as seen in the images below.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Funnily enough, these services are actually delivering spoil that has been excavated from the tunneling works of HS2, which will run two trains a day here until August 2025. The spoil delivered here will be used as part of a long-term plan to restore the area around the old quarry.

    So that's the Cambridge extension for ECML South. Let me know what you think in the replies below about whether this route could be extended further or any other ideas that I may have missed in either of these parts. Like I've said, I could extend this part to Ely at minimum, But I'll wait to see your reactions first before making the route even bigger than it is now. To end this off, I've leave down some images of what this extension looks like in real life. That's all for me for now, and without further ado, enjoy the images!

    Pictures of the extension in real life

    Letchworth Garden City
    [​IMG]
    Royston
    [​IMG]
    Foxton
    [​IMG]
    CEMEX Barrington Landfill
    [​IMG]
    Cambridge
    [​IMG]
    Coldham Lane Depot

    [​IMG]

    Images Sources
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2022
    • Like Like x 4
  12. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    3,872
    Likes Received:
    5,789
    Plus 1 to anything kgx to pbo
     
  13. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2021
    Messages:
    6,528
    Likes Received:
    3,790
    I agree but for DTG they should not do the mistake they did on class 700 for TSC which was Class 444 DC Class 395 AC. To reedem themselves from TSC Class 700 disaster use AP sounds for Class 700 on ECML South or Rush Hour Train Pack
     
  14. nepclassof84

    nepclassof84 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2022
    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    288
    I like this suggestion.
     
  15. smugstarlord#4202

    smugstarlord#4202 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2021
    Messages:
    435
    Likes Received:
    639
    Class 91 as standard though. Love this route IRL
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2020
    Messages:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    1,285
    If the route was set somewhere between 2018 and 2019 then a larger share of the commuter services were operated by Great Northern, so there should be less of an issue making services AI only (there would have been more semi-fast services between Hitchin/Stevenage and King's Cross operated by the Class 365 and Class 387 as far as I recall).

    Now the SEHS extension gives another use case for a Class 700, hopefully that will allow Thameslink layers on such a route here and provide the basis for the similar Class 717 to be included, should we ever see this route in-game (fingers crossed).
     
  17. d.heal

    d.heal Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2020
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    181
    With dtg doing longer route now the ECML is probably a good length to have
     
  18. martinv#5628

    martinv#5628 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2022
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    15
    It’s a yes from me!
     
  19. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2021
    Messages:
    6,528
    Likes Received:
    3,790
    Correct and there's another option for Class 700 to be in TSW 2 in addition to ECML South it's the Rush Hour Train Pack community suggestion NEC Acela Express ICE-T Riesa Dresden and BML Class 700.
     
  20. lancpudn

    lancpudn Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2019
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    36
    Absolutely a class 91 would be wonderful to see on DTG.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page