Edinburgh-glasgow Preview Stream Feedback Thread

A good point, and that makes sense, I agree !

That's a different problem I think, that has only partially to do with how accurate or reasonable the criticism is. Again, I am only asking for sources, what DTG does with them is another topic.

What they do with it is another topic. But, while on it, if the source is provided and the community agrees, and sticks together, changes can be done. If it wouldn't be for the consistend complain about the 150, the Arosa Line and the BR 187, I'm sure we'd have not seen a single change or patch by now.

And all I'm asking for is to give that complain, critcism and suggestions a bit more substance and credibility.

 

Given Rivet's history with rolling stock physics, I would definitely trust almost anyone else but them. Remember when physics on Arosa frequently caused violent derailments because of extremely broken values inside them, yet Rivet found no issue?

 

If there is one thing the internet has brought us, that is a whole raft of experts, experts on everything, experts everywhere.

 

The main problem here is we definitely know this will NOT be fixed for tomorrow's release. Why? Because preview streams got moved so close to the release, no feedback can be implemented in time. And it seems it's not just the streams since it was Monday when a serious issue for PS was found. Can't you rework the timeframe so that this testing and previews happen and then there's a, let's say, two-week gap before the release itself? If the feedback is great, no worries, focus on the next project in the meantime. If problems are found... which... they usually are... you have time to fix it before release. This current approach is disastrous, it completely ruined the BRO release, it causes extreme damage here, and it seems to me BCC was only spared because Daisy was with it throughout the whole process (shoutout to her!).

 

As long as the route is a reasonable representation of driving a Class 385 from Edinburgh to Glasgow then I'm in on Day One. I suspect the silent majority of the community are the same, if they can afford the route at full price
If the route turns out to be rubbish I'll drive other trains the I enjoy using scenario planner.
All projects have budgets, compromises have to be made, and there needs to be a return on investment. Nothing is perfect. So long as DTG and Rivet satisfy enough customers to make a profit then they have done their job.
The forums are great for feedback and sharing opinions, but keep it positive!

 

The premise of this DLC is fantastic, but unfortunately Rivet are displaying their usual weaknesses when it comes to doing the rolling stock, overall the 385 looks good, but physics/sounds are subpar, the physics being the main offender.

A couple of things are getting me more so, why have rivet taken it upon themselves to mess around with pianos, lifts etc which overall aren’t adding much to the reason the majority of people play TSW? On its own it’s still a weird thing, but then we don’t have things such as GSMR, TSW3 snow & platforms? The biggest miss here is the OLE downgrade. New ‘features’ should only be added after you get the current ones in there, not a pick n mix of some old, some new and some completely missing - is this a Rivet thing or is this an issue with the partner programme? DTG not sharing etc. We’ve seen how closely rivet & DTG can work so it doesn’t make sense. This for me is the biggest issue I had, never going to use the pianos, I’m never going to use the lifts - but GSMR I would setup every single run I do? I don’t think I’m alone here.

The second point is why are we having a recurring issue with AI light setups? This seems to be every other release it’s happening, is it a simple forgetful dev error or something wrong with TSW 3?

Finally, AI timetables need to go, especially when step 3 brakes are as bad as they have been displayed, I wonder what the community punctuality will be like on this route.

 

I don't know if this is an issue with eye adaptation feature or light baking but it looks horrendous, don't understand how can that make it to release.

 

The screenshot doesn't really do justice to how bad that moment looked in the stream

 

In an ideal world I would have liked for this release to be delayed, with the main offending issues to be sorted out as a priority.

Talking of which, the main priorities should have been making sure the train sounds and physics are up to standard, as well as making sure the route is shipped with all the main TSW 3 features, such as wet platforms and new snow visuals. The fact that this was bypassed is beyond me. It should come as default when making any new route for TSW 3.

The ‘nice to have’ things such as pianos and moths should have been swapped for working on the above issues. I think Rivet needs to re-prioritise their main tasks.

Also, it seems the platform ends at Edinburgh Waverley are in complete darkness. Clearly this wasn’t tested thoroughly during night time, which is a common issue within TSW. (Also, notice those horrible looking signal flares)

 

I liked what I saw and am no expert in train physics, so that probably wouldn’t bother me. Looks like a nice add on that I’d probably enjoy. I like that Rivet try to put in new features that we didn’t see before.

I.won’t be buying it though. Rivet’s previous DLC (Luzern) has had broken services for almost 4 months now in TSW3. They acknowledged the issue and there has been no fix. I just don’t feel like supporting this anymore. I may change my mind if a fix arrives and this new DLC turns out to be good. But for now I’ll be waiting.

 

Welcome to TSW3 lighting.
It's the main thing that puts me off buying any new TSW3 route.

 

It's not the era that's the issue, many of us fans of older stuff accept modern stuff sells, fine no problem. What is an issue is one train routes, Green light runs, no layers (and no sign of any either for future). Once you add bugs, poor sounds, and then sprinkle gimmicks like lifts, moths, pianos over the top then commenting on it positively is difficult regardless of taste.

I just played Koln to Aachen new journeys. Great run, checked down into Koln HBF saw various different types of train en route and felt like I could go back to the route time and time again.

Frustrated with E and G because its an iconic route and in my eyes despite what other have said could have been a lot better with one more train and the few miles via Grahamston included. I wasnt asking for the moon here just comparible to some of the German DLC.

I did suggest a while back this route could have been done in the late 80s beause we would have needed one new rolling stock item (DBSO) the rest just need buffers adding and interiors changing (Mk3s) and the 47 reskinning and setting up for TDM as a 47/7. The 101 would layer in already as would normal Mk2s and hey presto a seriously busy route.

Even the 90s would have been better as 158 would have been kickstarting layers elsewhere for future UK routes.

 

Thanks for the input Matt, it's gratefully appreciated, I'm sure I'll enjoy the route when I get it though, glad to hear you are reviewing the criticism with Rivet

 

I'm currently only about 1/3 of the way through the preview stream. One thing that's already troubling me is operating the TMS screen. Don't get me wrong, adding this operational screen is a very good idea. But for console users I fear that operating the screen will be very fidgety. Moving the cursor about with a controller is not as easy as using a mouse. If operating this screen with a controller turns out to be as difficult as it is using the in game 3d map, I fear players will not bother with using it that much

 

Well I actually work on the railway and know enough to say that they’ve gotten some stuff very wrong.

 

It should have been automatic and you can switch it on or off. I'm not going to bother selecting what I want to hear as I approach the station and I'm on ps5. And isn't she the same voice that's on the Cathcart stations.

 

I'm in favour of a 10 in 10 to promote the route and potentially interest me. But, I really think these should be actual stuff that relates to gameplay or the trains itself - like: 1. Here's our authentic, busy timetable of the route, 2. Here's what other rolling stock from existing UK content can be used 3. TMS (this was actually included and, as it was related to the 385 at least, that deserved being in the list) etc. Basically, moths to lights, elevators and pianos aren't going to be a deciding factor - they are nice (and should still be included), but they are very small, extra features that don't enhance gameplay at all thus I don't think this warrants taking up valued time of the preview stream - especially when the stream is just two days before...

 

It stuck out like a sore thumb. It was horrifically bad. When Matt was at a red waiting for the train to come out of the tunnel, each car suddenly lit up too. There wasn’t a gradual lighting.

 

personally i’d rather have waited a few extra weeks/ a month for proper train sounds and tsw3 features to be added in and other basic things to be implemented. i feel like we’ve got an uncompleted route which could’ve had so much potential

 

That, right there, is TSW in a nutshell sadly.

 

i know, my main question is how can you not manage to record proper train sounds when they’re literally on your door step irl

 

I mean when sehs came out for tsw2 originally, the route was plagued with sound inaccuracies despite the route being on dtg's doorstep

 

This is one heck of a thread - terrific reading!

 

As soon as I read about the piano, my eyebrows hit the ceiling.

Fine, yes, if everything else is tip top, why not but really this is Rivet with a still quite horrendous back catalogue of unfixed issues particularly relating to sound. The proof will be in the consumption obviously but I have to say the choice of train, the era and gimmicks relegate this almost instantly to a 50% off sale purchase and that's before any other problems get picked up by the Day One buyers.

 

I find it a bit funny that people were praising the route before it was shown and there were some that were shutting down criticism of some screenshots but now that the route was shown, the reception of the route has flipped like a switch.

Then some wonder why Rivet have the mixed reputation they have in TSW.

I do like things like the piano and the other interactives but considering the issues this route has, I do wonder if those additions were necessary. Unless your exploring the route on foot, you aren't gonna use them alot.

I guess since the route was gonna have bugs, it's interesting that they decided to add bugs to the route. A nice touch in my opinion

 

What I find really galling is the admission that the sounds aren’t up to it but they’re ‘speaking to Scotrail about it’. That’s more of the politician style BS that DTG have become known for, along the same lines of ‘we’ve ripped the lighting up and started again’. It will doubtless be instantly forgotten about in a few days time when the cycle moves on to speculation for the next predictable disappointment. I don’t believe they have any intention of ever fixing the sounds but if they by some miracle are able to source proper recordings, then it bloody well should have been done BEFORE the release of the route, not after. You’re asking people to pay £30 for this so it’s absolutely no good talking to Scotrail about it now, it’s too damn late! It is not ok to keep doing this.

I also thought the blasé attitude shown from all on that stream last night was really disgusting. Rivet’s community manager couldn’t answer even the most basic questions about his own product (‘where did the sounds come from? Er, I don’t know’), and the guys from DTG were just laughing off fairly major and obvious problems, not only with the route/DLC, but with the game itself.

Also, I’ll keep raising this until they either do something about it or I’m blue in the face; what are the people responsible for testing this game playing at?! How in the actual hell did this issue with the TMS and the Playstation only come to light in the last few days? How many more times are we going to have to go through this farce?

 

Agree should have been done before release.. and in a few weeks everyone is hyped for the next dlc and the sounds are forgotten..

 

Agreed, if they were talking with ScotRail about it, then ScotRail could have arranged plans for a sound recording day where Rivet would have access to a 385 for recording purposes, I know it isn't as simple as that but that could be a solution for the sound issues

 

Normally I go easy on the criticism but I agree with what you're saying here. This DLC shouldn't have got out the gate in this state. This is Rivets 5th route so why another buggy offering?

 

Further to my earlier comment about the brakes being far too weak, even a real life driver who had commented in a DTG article, which he said ‘The units are very light on their feet compared to the DMUs and you feel this when doing brake tests’ which translates to the unit having good brakes/being able to slow it down quickly.

Clearly Rivet have got it wrong but don’t want to admit it. Their 385 slows down like it is a ship or something…

 

That is probably tightly related to the game's core because trains light up car after car on basically all routes. Like there's one brightness value for each car with no gradient, and it is hideously unrealistic. Most recently it can be seen with trains leaving/arriving in Birmingham.

 

Will wait on reviews and possible mods for this one before deciding wether to buy or not.

There are some nice additions to the route that are not a usual sight on others, but as mentioned earlier, the basics seem to be lacking. Most questionable is the sound of the train again, especially the running sounds and the clacks when going over track joints. The train physics also look sketchy... especially when starting the train, it feels more like starting a tram or something. These are the very least that I want them to be somewhat correct in the final product and they don't seem to be, especially compared to other routes. I would much rather the devs focused on core simulation first and only adding novelties after getting the essentials right.

 

I know I've been ostracized by the SimRail community for my forthright comments concerning that product, but I have to give the developers of that game due credit - other than the contentious save game/single player issues - they do appear to be working flat out to address bugs and concerns. We know from Arosa, the 1938 stock and West Cornwall exactly where this will end up - Jasper promising to look at it, nothing much happens, a few more platitudes, then in a month or two the route has made its sales target and will be shuffled off the the "fired and forgotten" corner along with all the rest.

 

The classic Rivet jerky start, I guess? The RhB electric loco had it as does the 484 on IOW. They never learn.

 

If they can't get basics right like correct ballast colour, correct OHLE, PIS colouring & placements then there's cat in hells chance the train physics are going to be correct

 

The most annoying thing to me about the piano is that it’s in the completely wrong position at Queen Street. It should be against the wall next to the ticket hall not plonked at the end of the platform. I also don’t believe there is one at Edinburgh.

Would certainly have rather had the the rain on the platforms and tsw3 snow.

 

Seeing as Rivet have made such a big deal of their new neutral section feature, it’s ironic they haven’t included ANY of the line side signage for it.

 

Yep, the TSW3 features have been left out, hope they get added in at some point as it is being sold like a TSW2 route with a couple of TSW3 features on it

 

And it can be all yours for $40

 

Well £30 for me

 

I have pre-ordered but my interest is cooling off a bit on the basis of the stream. I'm going to give it a go for a couple of hours on Thursday night and see how it goes but I could see this being a refund unfortunately (which I haven't done in a very long time!).

There's some to like here too - detailed stations (especially termini), trams, excellent 385 modelling as usual, and the ability to wander a little further from the stations in the usual Rivet fashion is nice.

My personal areas of disappointment:

- Once again, the choice of route and train is questionable. It doesn't look that busy, there aren't any significant layers to speak of, and the route isn't extensive enough to justify the addition of a second unit (for instance Stirling being included would have at least justified the addition of the HST to add some gameplay variety). I've got no doubt that Rivet have modelled this stretch of railway accurately and with the vast majority of the realistic stopping stock (pretty much solely the 385), it's just seemingly not a particularly gripping route (it's not very busy, hilly or scenic once you're outside of the termini, and the motive power isn't especially exciting either).

(Having said that, if Rivet build on this release with a series of further ScotRail DLC with more rolling stock and layers etc, this route would be a great starting point for that given that the termini are now built and can be populated with 385s. Long-term planning to use the layering system properly would be fantastic!)

- I agree with those who have pointed out that the 385's brakes do seem too weak, and physics is an area where Rivet have historically struggled so there is some reason to be concerned.

- I can't believe we're still getting AI-generated timetables in TSW3 - this needs to be sorted out for the variety of reasons I've expended enough ink on before and is my winner of 'most frustrating issue that should have been solved by now'

- TBH it's really bizarre that in-train announcements are included without being automated. Feels like something that should have been prototyped in a totally separate build until it was fully working and only then implemented. TMS comes across as unfinished at the moment and it does leave Rivet open to accusations of poor prioritisation (although I'm personally a bit more circumspect on that latter point as I doubt the folk who implement TMS are the same ones who are doing the timetable or night lighting etc)

- Am I right in thinking there is no approach control implemented here? I guess this and BCC were in development simultaneously so it's kind of understandable but still a little disappointing. Certainly it should be expected in the next UK Rivet release. I'm guessing it may also be missing from the forthcoming mystery Skyhook route.

- Missing TSW3 features (snow piling, wet platforms etc)

- Some outstanding night lighting issues which are documented elsewhere

I'm happy to give it a whirl regardless to see if my perception improves, but these are my feelings from having watched the stream.

 

Honestly at this point I think their testers are a bunch of yes men who won't say no or point out clear errors to keep getting free content. Do these testers not have a checklist? A checklist should include things like does the route have rush hour passengers? Does it have all the tsw3 features. Is the sound accurate? Is the breaking close to accurate based on real world feedback? Does the route have proper signage and so on and so forth? It's like these people don't have a checklist and will approve anything regardless of condition despite DTG trying to say that isn't the case

 

I did wonder where they were on the stream, but assumed they had been removed IRL because the driver doesn't have to do anything about the neutral section when the yellow blocks do it all for you.

 

Thanks for the answer that means I can display 385 to Neilston/Mount Florida on Cathcart Circle route

 

*You might be able to*

 

That's a good sum up of what this route is missing unfortunately, like I've said in many replies, I really do hope Rivet do something about this as it is their release, not DTGs so can't wait to see the ideas Rivet have, if any

 

They need permission to record. The tocs have a busy schedule they need to stick to and it's not always possible to lend out a train to rivet to record for an entire day. Then you really can't record with people inside so the whole timetable gets messed up. Dtg or the devs simply can't go out to record every train. Tocs rarely have time or rules are really strict or stuff happens.

 

Testing wise I am not surprised. Testing is a pretty low wage but high skill requirement job within the industry, hard to hire for in house, and all signs point to DTG mostly outsourcing it, which basically is money thrown out the window to another company promising everything for a paycheck. Not sure if you read about the Cyberpunk QA debacle, my feeling is TSW, or any other game for that matter is not in any better in this regard.

We never had a gameplay tester/lead live on a preview stream facing the scrutiny of the highly critical audience. Auto testing will never catch most of issues the community is complaining about. Neither will an uninterested, bored or tired and overworked human, executing the same thing for a hundredth time.

The solution is there, with a public Open Beta program, a practice easily achieved on some of the platforms. If feedback can be taken seriously and responded to in a transparent manner. Otherwise its just another name for early access, and will be treated as such, with the risk of impact on final sales numbers (maybe this is what they worry about? )

Looking at the DLC itself, there are clearly positives and firsts included, the TMS, neutral sections, elevators and trams to name a few. For me the texture quality was striking on the scenery, looking too blurry compared to other routes.
Lighting has the same old bugs from TSW2 and some new. Cannot comment on the sound or livery, I might be fine even with some computer generated ones, since I have never seen or heard the vehicles in real life.

For the price at least the gameplay should be on point, that is what keeps me going on a route, much less how the train looks or sounds. But the misplaced stop markers, wrongly setup lights, buggy services, low effort timetable and small service variety kill the excitement. And we have all of this in the package for Edinburgh - Glasgow. Since I do not have the luck of having routes from my country, I can choose not to buy such a route without being sentimental about it.

 

Worth noting that QA will not be looking for things like "misplaced stop markers, wrongly setup lights, buggy services, low effort timetable and small service variety" - that's the domain of beta testers. QA is for (among other things) trying to make the game crash and documenting how it was done, making sure controls work as they should (train not move when push go) and related apocrypha. No QA tester is going to know (or be expected to know) if the train brakes are too harsh or too lax

 

It's called project management. Way back on Day 1 when this DLC went up on the whiteboard at Rivet HQ, the bullet points should have included TOC co-operation and arrangements to access the prototype for sound recording and physics evaluation. Without that in place it should perhaps not have been green lighted. Sorry to disagree but this is software at a professional level and (now) on the expensive side of the market to buyers. You get it right. It's not freeware where an alias to something else will do.

The only chance DTG/Rivet will sell this route to me is if they do a salvage job with a retro "alternate" timetable BR Blue as happened with WCL, albeit it will be harder to disguise with the OHL etc. in place.