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End Train Simulator Development

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by matjamca, Sep 4, 2020.

?
  1. Yes

    69 vote(s)
    61.1%
  2. No

    44 vote(s)
    38.9%
  1. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    I know this post will be controversial, but if I were DTG, I’d completely end all further development of Train Simulator with immediate effect and focus all my development teams talent on Train Sim World.

    Think of the potential growth, development and evolution of TSW 2 and beyond if 100% attention was given to that game. It seems such a waste that so much energy still goes into Train Simulator, when in many ways, it is far inferior to Train Sim World and excludes console players, where extra money can be made.

    Given that console players are accounting for a larger % of players in Train Sim World, focusing all development on TSW would enable DTG to release more routes quicker, to look at expanding existing routes, to refine the UI, AI, Map, Controls and fix bugs quickly not to mention other things they could work on such as improved passengers, more immersive camera angles, improved livery designer, scenario planner or new features like consist editor etc. PC players will still benefit as they’ve got access to TSW too and will still have their existing TS content to enjoy going forward.

    It seems strange to me that with limited resources, the company is still working on two completely different games with different engines and different development directions. I’m not a PC player and I’m really quite jealous of all the goodies TS players get on PC. Longer routes and lots more of them, more locos etc.

    So, should DTG end development of TS and focus 100% on TSW?

    Please explain your vote and let’s get a conversation going :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
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  2. fabdiva

    fabdiva Active Member

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    I think that's already happening. I don't think there are going to be any more major updates to the TS Classic Core. You'll probably find the TS Classic team is just some content creators and 3rd party/customer support and the majority of DLC coming out is 3rd party. If the small team covers it's costs and TS and the 1st/3rd party content is still selling there is no reason to stop.
     
  3. keeganjohnson3

    keeganjohnson3 New Member

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    I agree
     
  4. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    Level pegging so far. Interesting.
     
  5. nwp1

    nwp1 Active Member

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    I think there is still money to be earned from developing new routes for TS2020 but think the game is as good as it could be. But what do we know if DTG have something better on the horizon. I voted Yes but could equally voted no or don’t know!!! I would love to see some routes from other parts of the world, especially Australian and African routes.
     
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  6. elarthur

    elarthur Well-Known Member

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    I do believe that the vast array of TS content should be converted to TSW. It has so much more variety as well as plenty of third party devs.
     
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  7. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Despite not having TS, and I never will have it due to a lack of hardware and endless pots of money, I think that while there is still an active player base and interest in it, they should continue to develop it, even if that development is mainly new DLC and maintenance. They are still releasing content and third parties are still releasing content so the demand is clearly still there.

    TSW isn’t a viable alternative to the functionality of TS due to some fundamental differences and lack of (excuse the language) an editor. Until you can build your own routes in TSW (unlikely ever to happen) TS is still as relevant today for train simmers as it has ever been. TSW is a different beast and lacks long routes, route extensions and community content. It can’t recreate how busy a real railway is due to its limitations. Third party content is only just becoming a thing and only from DTG’s development partners so far. It has things TS can’t offer too but nothing it has to offer makes TS obsolete. I think for the foreseeable future, DTG should continue to make sure TS doesn’t become obsolete.

    They should drop all that fish nonsense though and concentrate only on trains :o
     
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  8. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It can recreate a busy rail line.
     
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  9. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I doubt the people working on Train Simulator have the skills to work on Train Sim World, it's a completely different engine and a completely different editor. I don't think development on Train Simulator is holding development on TSW back. So I think it's incorrect to assume that stopping all development on Train Simulator will boost the rate at which new TSW content will be made.

    As long as Train Simulator still has a market and there's profit to be made, continuing development for Train Simulator actually gets DTG more resources to pour into TSW. I've also noticed that there's often a link between a new TS DLC and a new TSW DLC, so I think the research done on any of the two games is actually recycled for the other game.

    Personally I decided to stop investing more money into Train Simulator since I consider TSW to have a better future. I think slowly more people are making the same switch, but don't forget that Train Simulator has an editor, steam trains, and a huge selection of content.
     
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  10. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    The only reason I really still play TS is because it has steam trains, an actual scenario editor, and a route editor. Plus it has some really cool routes available.

    But I don't think development should be completely dropped on TS
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2020
  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    TSW is a game, TSx is a hobby. They're only related because they're published by the same company.

    It's already likely that DTG are focussing more on TSW, but I don't think they should drop TSx just because it's older anymore than they should drop TSW on PC because "console players are accounting for a larger % of players in Train Sim World"

    There's room in the world for both, and until DTG decide what they want to do, both should continue
     
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  12. Rail Runner

    Rail Runner Well-Known Member

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    Considering Train Simulator is open to 3rd Party, then surely DTG can take a back step for now, because TSW is only really made by DTG, Rivet and Skyhook.
    That’s my personal opinion though.
     
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  13. johnjohn190690

    johnjohn190690 Active Member

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    Haven't voted yet idk if I will cos I see both with a future whether TSxx will have a future with dtg I'm still not sure. Having third party devs who do Freeware routes help with dtg released routes. TSW2 is the future but also lacks in areas for it to be, content, graphically still needs improvement, immersion, weather improvements, scenario editor, route editor. From a PC player who has only played TSW2 not TSW its a step in a good direction road map, slightly longer routes than in TSW, High speed trains, open world.
    So my overall view is I do see TSW2 as the future and TSxx needs a core update dtg can cater for both in the future. Create slightly more longer routes, route extensions aswell, add more stock, timetable mode is good add more like weekend timetable it's vastly different to weekday. TSxx still has a future whether it is with dtg or not.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
  14. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    Very true. There are still people who just want to play, and not care about the realism of the game.


    If you don't like TS because it isn't as real as TSW, then don't play it, but don't stop other people's fun.
     
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  15. TSWx

    TSWx Active Member

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    I thought of this as well :), as I can think of there are 3 options
    1
    TS > continue work
    TSW > continue work
    2
    TS > Search for new TS successor cause its retro, but with lower realism and graphic resolution and longer routes
    TSW > continue work
    3
    TSW < preffered option
     
  16. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I agree. All development should be switched from TS to TSW. I think TSW would heavily benefit from it.

    If they do this, I think it should be a priority to bring most (if not all) routes from TS to TSW. It would add a lot to the collection of routes in TSW and increase DTG’s profit so they can continue improving on TSW.
     
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  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Given that they're done in completely different ways there isn't a path to bring TSx content into TSW
    Look at the problems they had bringing TSW1 content to TSW2...
    In other words they'd have to rebuild everything from scratch, and given TSx is over a decade old, you want to wait that long for TSW content?
     
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  18. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Wont happen...

    There is way too many technical issues that even begin when you think about converting that much content to a newer platform on a different game engine, not to mention no steam would be able to come until Dovetail can figure it out for TSW2 first, theres also all the DLC by 3rd party developers, and all the content that is still broken in one way or another. You want to wait 30 years for everything to be converted? (Not to mention any new TS DLC that comes out).
     
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  19. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Active Member

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    I think my point of disagreement is that if anything it is developing for console that holds up Train Sim World in the way you envisage it developing, not Train Simulator development, which is entirely separate. If TSW was PC only I daresay it would already be doing the things you mention here but of course it would also have half the audience and therefore its viability would be an issue. The compromise for the extra difficultly, cost/resources, more restrictive possibilities and poorer results of developing for console is a larger user base that justifies the additional effort and in turn more investment overall.

    I am a console player so I'm certainly not saying consoles should be abandoned, but I do think people should remember the fact that in general PC games are easier and cheaper to develop and can remain supported for longer, as well as having the option for far more functionality via mouse/keyboard and few of the software/hardware constraints that consoles have. I believe if DTG didn't have a specific policy of maintaining parity across platforms, they could probably do a lot more with TSW as-is on PC. This I bear in mind when wondering why there are not longer routes or more functionality within TSW, I know consoles are not easy to develop for, and that TSW's audience and gameplay is distinct from TS specifically because it is developed for console, which creates a lighter simulation experience but in turn is responsible for the user base widening up. I don't feel that your proposal would open up massive growth in users, other than to get some TS players into TSW, for console users in general I'd say it would create a slightly more formidable experience that would put-off people with a lighter interest in rail simulation and as I've said, I am skeptical consoles can do everything you want them to anyway.

    But also, this did make me chuckle a bit: "PC players will still benefit as they’ve got access to TSW too and will still have their existing TS content to enjoy going forward." - I mean come on! TSW players basically forced DTG to, in my opinion, mistakenly dedicate a huge amount of time and resources importing old routes into TSW2 rather than giving us new routes, so I do not think TS players would be content, when faced with a much worse situation for them as players, to just enjoy their existing content.
     
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  20. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    They’re already starting to convert DLC over. The thing is, it’s not like their porting it over, they have to rebuild the whole route, so most of the bugs that are in the TS version most likely won’t be in the TSW version.

    TGV - Former TS Route
    Península Corridor - Former TS Route
    Southeastern High Speed - Former TS Route
    Isle of Wight - Former TS Route
    And more

    If they’re already bringing a good amount of TS content over to TSW, they might as well cut all further development for TS, while keeping a small support team for the various bugs. They would bring most of the TS routes over and it’ll help the people who have consoles to be able to play these routes for the first time, add diversity in the amount of routes and locations there are in the game, and it’ll have players experience the route in “Stunning Detail” with the Unreal engine graphics.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
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  21. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    A lot of the upcoming routes are from TS because TS acts as the reference material for TSW2 development because of the pandemic. Plus, TS has so many different routes around the world, it is hard to find popular routes that aren't already on TS.
     
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  22. TSWx

    TSWx Active Member

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    At least they've already got the licences needed for those route sections, which I assume is also a hard work, to receive them. So why not do a little conversion? :)
     
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  23. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    They've got licenses for train simulator (if needed), that doesn't mean those licenses automatically extend to Train Sim World 2 which is completely different software.
     
  24. Alexandra

    Alexandra Active Member

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    My interest in Train Simulator began several years ago when I stumbled on a YouTube clip. Matt Peddlesden could sell ice cubes to
    Eskimoes and I was hooked, ending up with an ever-expanding Train Simulator collection and then later a Train Sim World collection.
    A lot of us began our journey to TSW2 beginning with Train Simulator, not only because TS has been around longer, but because TSW can seem daunting to a novice and the documentation, while improving steadily, is inadequate for beginners. Fabdiva and others make a good point that it's reasonable to assume that if the TS teams covers its costs and TS is still selling, there's no reason to stop. I agree. The more people who end up railroading in front of a screen, the more we all benefit.
     
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  25. TSWx

    TSWx Active Member

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    Ah ok I understand. But it would still be easier because you've once already got contact to the company, so easier than getting it from an completely different company. Ehm let me just say Heathrow Connect... that it's different software is not a problem because they are making some [DLCs] over, only shorter though. And I think they've researched the route [TS], so less effort.
     
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  26. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Active Member

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    For me they have to make a GOTY Edition of TS2020 , the last one and then focus the Team on TSW 2
     
  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think that's oversimplified... Just because a company made a licensing agreement ten years ago doesn't mean it's the same company, same contact etc now.
    Look at Northern. Ten years ago it was a different company entirely so the license would be with whoever that was, and though they may be able to get licensing for TSW for those liveries it wouldn't be as simple as "talking to the same people again", because those people aren't in the same company any more.
    For the more up to date routes, this maybe the case (hence why Southeastern STP - FAV makes sense). Same company so easy to go back to. But going back a few years would complicate things unless you go back before privatisation when things were all public domain anyway ie BR blue etc that you may not need a license for except from the DfT or ORR (not sure which)

    As a further to this, I did a freedom of information request earlier this year on TfW to see if DTG were in contact to get rights on the new Welsh stuff, and they are in contact for TSx and TSW licensing, so that's a thing...
     
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  28. TSWx

    TSWx Active Member

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    Its oversimplified yes, but I am in a forum and not writing a letter. Let's put it that way, new routes 100%, workload upgrading TS routes and locos/trains 90% workload. But thank you for the information about Tfw, could get interesting if received, I personally liked the Arriva Wales livery more ... But sounds alright.
     
  29. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think the new livery is boring but then I don't design train skins...
     
  30. johnjohn190690

    johnjohn190690 Active Member

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    That's interesting hoping we get a Welsh route for TSW2
     
  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I'm hoping for the non-mainline South Wales Metro routes, so all the Valley Lines.
    If they did it in the 80s/90s you could have sprinters, pacers, class 60s, 47s...
     
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  32. jack.a.varley04

    jack.a.varley04 Member

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    Well if they do the last would be train simulator 2021
     
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  33. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    There have been quite a few routes pulled from Steam because the company pulled the license. When the company changes hands, it is up to whoever owns the logo/name, whether that be the original owners, or the new owners.
     
  34. railway12

    railway12 Active Member

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    Very nice poll. It would though be interesting if this was posted in the TS forums too, then we could see the whole picture. Btw I think DTG should focus on one thing in its product portfolio: fishing and trains. Not having multiple games with similar features for the same catagory.
     
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  35. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    The more people that switch from TS production to TSW production, the more routes for us, the more money for them, so they can keep making routes.
     
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  36. no123

    no123 Member

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    Agreed. All of the TS versions are just number changes and if you buy the new version you would get some old DLCs. And make TSW2 more optimized so my laptop (not my main PC) would be able to run it. That's why I still play TS2020, because TSW2 isn't so optimized.
     
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  37. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    TSx is still based on a decade old version of DirectX and is about as optimised as a dead tree... It might run better because the core is closer to the age of your laptop than TSW2 is, but it's not optimised...


    Well, except for the change to 64 bit which was a fairly good "core update" even if it did also break a lot of things
     
  38. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Active Member

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    There's a distinct lack of business acumen in here.
    Firstly, you might as well say that DTG should stop doing the fishing games and concentrate on TSW2. The TSW and TS developers are separate teams, all you're doing is making one of them redundant.

    Second, it's really bad business practice to rely on one product, even if you're a boutique-sized games house like DTG. They have a loyal base of customers with large TS collections and a number of developers making new content.

    Even if a brand new Railway Simulator comes out Cities-Skylines-style that has better visuals than TSW2, the ability to edit and create and an emphasis on community-made content. TS would still chug along for a few years. TSW2 likely wouldn't. So while TSW2 is still building a market for itself, it would be a big risk for DTG to abandon TS. Hence TS2021.
     
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  39. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    I like this thread although, many will be up in arms about it; it makes sense. TS Classic is at it’s most stable, although still not 100% with a single run from Paddington to Penzance, it’ll dump after Plymouth. I think with the collectables and walking around, third parties could get quite imaginable.
     
  40. TSWx

    TSWx Active Member

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    Really I can't find it? Mr economy.
     
  41. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Active Member

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    So, er, you're agreeing or not?

    As for "collectables", that's the difference between TS and TSW target market. Most TS players couldn't give a stuff about "collectables", they want realistic content.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  42. TSWx

    TSWx Active Member

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    That's just inappropriate.
    TS players will surely find more realism in TSW, if they don't care about collectables they should just not do it or Dtg should make a don't care for collectables button. But if that's the only thing you're arguing then it's not a problem. I would NOT describe it as a target market. >I mean you're just saying collectables is THE difference between TS and TSW target market< ... Just think it through for yourself.
    Now my opinion, dump TS, convert routes to TSW and let's only go forward, I mean cmon just look at the TS graphics.
     
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  43. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Depends on your definition of "realism".
    If you mean "what looks more realistic", then neither do really.
    If it comes down to functionality and how things handle, then again both have flaws.
    So if it comes to content, what you can do with it and how many different ways you can play, TSx wins hands down (for now)

    Some of us spent hours of gametime on tetris on the original gameboy. Graphics aren't everything. Gameplay counts for more when it comes to returning to the game than the initial "yeah, it looks OK"
     
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  44. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    The pros to TS2020

    - Lengthy routes still built by DTG, but better with community input due to an editor.

    - Editor (Very versatile although the sound domes and portals are quite freaky looking)

    - Dedicated sound designers as a third party, Armstrong Powerhouse

    - Loads of third party support, much more loco variety, can drive a train anywhere.

    - Cool weather features; now thanks to AP.

    - Loads of DLC because it’s been around for a long time and has an editor.

    —-
    Cons to TS2020

    - Age of the engine.
    - Fixed to the train rather than the fluidity of properly changing ends like in TSW.


    Pros to TSW

    -Walking around and can properly set up a cab if changing ends on a service that has a return diagram.

    -Younger game engine; which is constantly being developed

    -DTGs so far strong point of route building

    -Can decide to just explore or drive a train.

    -More community involvement since TSW1

    ——
    Cons to TSW

    -No editor to allow TS2020 established / budding devs to create for this new game engine as Epic Games didn’t think of the community possibilities with Unreal

    -After a long time, Rivet Games are finally making a route for TSW and another dev (not a con but could of been sooner)

    -No involvement of Armstrong Powerhouse to develop sounds for the platform, or loads of other train aficionados and allow us to buy from AP or a split business plan with DTG.

    -You all will disagree with all of the above ;-)
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  45. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    AP has contributed sounds to the 377, and possibly others.
    And you can now drive any train, anywhere in TSW2.
     
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