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Engine Upgrade And Preserved Collection

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by dreampage, Jun 16, 2021.

  1. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Really, I can think of plenty where it is, as one example Auran Trainz (sorry N3V, it'll always be Auran to me) breaks 3rd party content all the time forcing it to get rebuilt or abandoned or live only in a particular version of Trainz.

    Paul
     
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  2. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    There is no evidence they didn't write a wrapper for the engine. Using a wrapper only insulates you from library or API changes in the engine, it doesn't mean you don't have to recompile everything!

    Paul
     
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  3. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'm sure most of the new bugs that remain in TSW2 preserved collection are there because DTG forgot to recompile and not because they need to manually make changes to each DLC.

    Seriously?
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2021
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  4. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    So here is what Natalie and Adam has said about this topic on tonight's stream:

    "No need to worry about sound"
    "Everything is coming out at the same time, we're not doing a staggered release this year"
    "The preserved collection is going through extensive testing"
    "The upgrade process should be seamless"
    "The only issue will be the download size"
    "We don't promise there won't be any obstacles"

    Let's hope it will all go smoothly - even though it still leaves the farther future in question.
     
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  5. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I will add one more thing. UE 4.26 changes how things work under the hood, so they need to re-think how to optimize the code so it runs as good as possible.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2021
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  6. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    They did reference this but I got the impression it’s still being evaluated
     
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  7. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Must admit I am still concerned this update will go as well as DTG says, of course I hope it goes without a hitch but we can only go by what has gone before.

    I think DTG would have a better time with DLC releases if they concentrated on the release and any bugs it has. Fix those bugs as best you can then move on to the next DLC instead of just letting all the bugs and errors and pile up. Now DTG are saying they will release all the bug fixes in one go, it might be just me but I'm not confident this will go well again I hope I'm proved wrong.

    Bigger games I have played in the past that needed engine fixes seemed to just 'Tweak the engine' and not have to redo all the DLC's like DTG are saying they have to do. Surely there is a better way no? If they had released the bug fixes for all the other DLC's would DTG have had to do as much work with the RH release?

    If DTG have to redo the DLC what happens with the third party DLC? DTG have said on stream they cannot fix or offer raildriver support in third party DLC's as it isn't their own software so how does the rewrite work?

    Lets say after the RH release a couple of third party DLC's get mucked up and are unplayable, where does that leave us who has forked out to pay for it?

    Let's hope it goes well but I think it is healthy to have doubts and concerns just in case something is overlooked.
     
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  8. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    Let's just say that I'm hopeful after all the assurance we got in the stream, but I will remain cautious until the big release happens. I wouldn't like to redownload all the content only to realize upon the first go how different things are - from sound mixing to possible bugs. Waiting so long for the LIRR and RT fixes, only to find bugs with them in the first five minutes was a staggering experience (the Talent 2 still hasn't got sound?).

    Also, this still leaves the farther future in question. This year's engine update is not that major, but what about going forward? Another upgrade for even more DLC by that time? What if there's a bigger jump? What if Unreal Engine 5 becomes a reality for DTG - will it mean a brand new product with no content/progress carried over? I can't help but feel that somehow this construction will lead to a dead-end sooner or later.
     
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  9. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I think the key thing to remember as much as the bug fixes annoy is that patches don’t pay the bills, excitement and trepidation over new features and routes does
     
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  10. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    If you do it right it can, there's lots of games where they largely make money just by keeping the game relevant by updating it. Even if you don't release paid content for it the fact it's still getting new content added means that new players are more likely to buy into the game years after launch. Free updates in this day and age are just as powerful as new paid content, this is why you see SCS add new content to previous releases, and Microsoft pushing Sim & World Updates every month or so.
     
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  11. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    That's why it's much better, both financially and regarding reputation, to release new content in a condition where you don't have to "balance pass" it several times over afterwards. Especially when a company is essentially forced to regularly release new DLC.
     
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  12. JackRyan

    JackRyan Member

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    Always the same wrong statement. If your products all have bad ratings in the steam store, that doesn't pay the bills as well.
    Having a bug free products increases the steam raitings and the sales of future DLCs
     
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  13. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    There won't be any excitement if people are expecting poor product quality and an unenjoyable experience, you can't divorce the two like that. Past experience influences future anticipation for new content. Its things like HMA and the DB101 that keep people's hopes up.

    The bug fixes need a higher priority where the content affected is really badly affected. In recent times it has been acknowledged that game breaking bugs should have this priority.

    Unfortunately game breaking seems to be quite a limited set of items and there are many annoyances which added up become pretty off-putting but individually are seen as small enough to be shuffled down the queue.
     
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  14. Yorkshirelad

    Yorkshirelad Member

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    imo DTG need to focus more on quality of life updates and actually fixing bugs, I've said many times on TSC that DTG should do open betas on steam, and bug bash, SCS do it, I understand they have financial commitments, but each update manages to fudge something up quite bad, also we need quality to be the same across the whole bar, can't be having one DLC being super good, then the next one bad, we need consistency, so we avoid a SEHS and Arosa again, not that SEHS was that bad, I think a lot of the issues with SEHS were exaggerated by some of the toxic members of this community.
     
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  15. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    I feel as if this post massively undermines the complexity of driving and flight simulators both graphically and simulation wise. From someone who comes from the flight simulator world, TSW barely holds a candle in the realm of simulation. It just happens to be the only main-stream one we have... so we give it a pass. Even those "basic" airports have a lot of detail injected, to the point where you could go and explore the surrounding environment and check if your house is the right colour :D And in terms of systems, some flight simulations go as far as replicating the computers and electrical impulses required to simulate electronic displays. Real-time blade element modelling. Actual cloud systems. Rendering for hundreds of miles out. All that on an average home computer.

    I could go on, but we'd be here all day.

    Actually flight simulators suffer from the same problem, but not quite as complicated as TSW (with each DLC acting as its own game, harder to future-proof rather than just referencing the core engine and libraries.)

    What I suspect the real arguments here are :

    a) How can DTG be more efficient in what they do?
    b) How can they be more profitable in what they do?

    Had DTG acted as more of a platform and opened up the tools... TSW would be looking a lot more vibrant than it does right now. Instead its seeking all the money now, and worry about the problems later or when they arrive.
     
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  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Do those games have completely different signalling systems in each DLC, or different controls in whatever it is you're controlling?
    Think about it, the systems in a UK DLC set in the 80s using a diesel electric with a separate brake handle are going to be different to the systems in a German modern electric which are different again from anything in the US, and then you have the track setups, signalling etc etc

    So it kind of makes sense that you don't have a central repository of stuff that then gets applied to a DLC, because most of those DLC wouldn't need a lot of things the core would then have.

    You also have to remember that things which were coded 5 years ago won't be coded the same way now. If each DLC is essentially a standalone then every time you change the engine of the game you would at least need to check that DLC aren't being orphaned.
     
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  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Your feelings are not my responsibility, but I assure you I am not "undermining" anything, but the complexity is different
    Flight sims don't have to be granular for the scenery. They may use mapping tech that is unavailable to DTG (certainly MSFS does) and the granularity generally wouldn't need to be there unless you can fly down to any street on the map and check it looks right. People DO do that on TSW

    Yep, that they do. DTG aren't at that level.
     
  18. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Range Rover….. constant moans about reliability yet people lap up all their new stuff, their legacy products are finitely supported. I don’t think they would thrive based on service parts.

    Apple. I believe an annual release cycle, people lap up, can’t wait to see and buy the new stuff, they do not thrive on replacing screens on an iPhone 4.

    Xbox…. Why am I not wanting to play on my old original 20 year old one. Simply because I’m a consumer and I want to see what’s next, what I can try more etc, rather than about a bug like freight exchange when I can play 200 new services on a new route. Bugs cost DTG a whole team of time and salary for less return than time on a new product

    Reviews are only part of the picture which rarely outweighs demand unless it’s catastrophic. Take Amazon and McDonald’s, year or two back they had awful reviews and they’ve grown exponentially. I don’t get this sit in a cave and click flint together approach, the only purpose it serves is reduce share prices to enable closures or buyouts.



    I do however agree things should be better and that is brought quality control, not upgrades and steam reviews
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2021
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  19. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    The core of their audience ain't buying a new one every year, they're biyearly at best, if not longer. And their products usually get at least five years of IOS upgrades, which is a big reason a lot of people go to them over many Android phones, many of the poor selling Android phones are lucky to get supported for two years. Also Apple customer support tends to be a ton better than support for Android based phones. Apple on the whole is actually a great example of a company who has a strong following in part because of their support after buying their product.
     
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  20. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    One reason EMD dominated the US diesel market for so long was their post-purchase product support network.
     
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  21. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I agree they offer good support but they still have strong new sales which would likely allow them to fund older support in the same way our buying of new dlc is likely paying Adams team. You just can't grow a business of an old product, at some point its obsolete or superseded or needs to evolve and compete.

    I think support for old products is lovely but it's not necessarily for any reason other than to protect new commercial ventures and reputation to enhance new sales. We all get the emails from Steam about the new stuff and from other manufacturers.

    Speaking of Steam , many of us don't jump on steam trains for work, as nice as it is to feel supported (offering a heritage railway) our money, train providers money is taken by new EMU's and fancy trains. You cant support the past forever
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2021
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  22. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Well, yes and no. Of course each loco is different, but at the same time you shouldn't have 4+ copies of the same Dostos that you need to update one by one.

    Also, it is true that different railways around the world have different signals, safety systems, etc ... but lets be honest here. TSW is focusing in 3 regions: US, DE and UK. The routes on each of these zones have many elements in common, so TSW should have a common trunk of code / assets relevant to each zone. Making changes in 3 spots is quite a different workload than making changes in 30 spots.

    It makes sense, because having something available doesn't mean that you have to load it all the time.

    They still need to do this anyway. It somewhat makes sense that they initially were changing how things were done with each DLC, but they should know the correct way to build routes in the 3 main zones by now (UK, DE, US). If they don't they have a huge problem.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2021
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  23. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Probably not the best example to use...
     
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  24. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There are a multiplicity of signage and signal systems in use in the US; and the UK involves several vintage routes that don't match up to modern practice. You just can't treat those areas like Germany
     
  25. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Oh agreed, but they've stuck themselves by sticking the locos / moving assets in with the routes, something they didn't do in TSC and which probably works much better the old way round

    Again yes. They could have each signalling system in a separate core area but this would mean that people who have no interest in the french high speed system would need to download that signalling system along with it's assets

    Agreed, but that's true of how they do it now anyway. Just because I have the NTP route doesn't mean it gets loaded when I use an asset from that route on another route, only the needed asset is loaded
     
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  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There is a technical reason which Matt addressed in one of the streams, why locos have to be tied to a "home" route and can't exist independently
     
  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I would be interested in how loose that term "home route" is... Could it be as loose as a 1 mile stretch of track designated "UK", "DE" or "US" with relevant assets in there?
     
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  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting idea!
     
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  29. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    It is happening anyway and I did not see anyone complain about it. If you only want UK content you still download the full SPG and SKA.
    It is true that if you don't want french content you would still download it, but keep in mind that you would save space with each UK, DE or US route because part of it would be re-used. In the long run you save space.

    In any case, I think most people would prefer to use more disk space in exchange for less bugs and faster fixes.

    Maybe I didn't understand what you wrote in your previous post correctly, but that seems to go against your point there.
     
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  30. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Which one, pls quote
     
  31. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    No they wouldn't, there's ways around needing everyone needing to have unnecessary assets. For example X-Plane 11 by default has a bare minimum rendition of the world, but you can download the regions you want completely free. So if you only fly in one region and don't want all your disk space being eaten up by the sim you can download what you want and not bother with the others. DTG could do something similar, they could make asset packs based on regions, and they could easily have them downloaded when you buy said routes. Not a idea DTG would be completely unfamiliar with either, as it's not that dissimilar to the old US & EU asset packs from the Rail Sim days.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2021
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  32. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    So everyone has that lower rendition even if they never go to that part of the world?

    From what I understand most of those assets came from Kuju, the predecessors of DTG so maybe not DTG's idea
     
  34. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Yup, I was going to mention this. Thank you.
     
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  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Difference is that I WANT that DLC, and I want other DLC that reference it, but I don't need it loaded all the time. I have zero use for anything German right now, so if the German signalling system was installed in the core by default (along with any assets) that would be wasted HDD space
     
  36. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Well, yep, but you already have the german signalling system that comes with SKA so it would not make much of a difference of space.

    Obviously the system they use with TS2021 is the best. You would have a FREE DLC called "Base german pack", and every german DLC would depend on it. If you do not use any german DLC you do not need to have the "Base german pack" installed. Same for all the world zones ("Base UK pack", "Base US pack").
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2021
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  37. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I would uninstall that if I could...
    A fair amount of how things are organised in TSC are very good
     
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  38. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but you can't. My point is that if you have lets say 5 UK routes (as an example) and those could share a common part of the code/assets you would be saving space (compared to what you are using now).
     
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  39. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Yes, because by default the world only contains water, so not like you're gonna be reducing file size much further from there.

    I've edited the post to make that more clear, as while what I said was technically true it's miss leading, sorry about that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2021
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  40. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Agreed
     
  41. tom.frame

    tom.frame Member

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    Does anyone have any info how large the download will be for stream I have all dlc about 240gb
    is it the same size or bigger? This will be + the new DLC as well is there anywhere to get the info?
    Thanks
     
  42. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    There is no official way of knowing. The size of the download will be less than the size of what you have installed, because it will be compressed by Steam.

    So, lets make an estimated download size for you. DLC install size usually goes between 6 GB and 14 GB, so I'm going with the worst case and assume Boston - Providence will be 14 GB. Your total install size would be 240 + 14 = 254 GB in that case.

    Now, how much does Steam compress TSW2 DLC data? From what I have tested, it has a compression ratio between 3:1 and 4:1.

    After doing the math, I expect your download size will be somewhere between 63 and 85 GB.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
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  43. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately... UE4.26 compression in itself is better than UE4.23 compression so the overall file size will be smaller, but this may offset any gain made by steam compression...
    In other words, we're still none the wiser
     
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  44. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    As I’m solely interested in Boston-Providence on day 1, I’ve taken other people’s advice to uninstall DLC before the update. Those routes and locos can be downloaded later once I get back to playing them.
     
  45. Haverknol

    Haverknol Member

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    I believe that the switch to 4.26 is happening on Tuesday, while Boston - Providence will release two days later on Thursday, so the huge download should not be a problem for playing Boston - Providence on day one :)
     
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  46. tom.frame

    tom.frame Member

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    Thanks for the info and that's true it's schedule for Tuesday the update on the core. However I just watch the Stream today and they we're saying about some depots and or timetable not being included in time for the launch for the Boston route (watch the stream I don't remember exactly what it was) I know they work hard on it but come on. then we get told don't complain
     
  47. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    4.26 is updated on Tuesday
     
  48. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    When I downloaded the Epic 4.26 version it was roughly half the size of the 4.23 version running on Steam based on the size of the PAK files on the drive. So your download will still be pretty big but not as bad as you're expecting.
     
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  49. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    The only thing I know is not included is the gantries and they've got a guy fixing those now for a post release update. The guy doing it was in the stream (look in the live chat).

    There was one station Forest Hills which is in the game but not in the map. They said its not used in the services, one person chat said there is one train on the line that starts there.

    Paul
     
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  50. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    That is the plan, but this should have been updated this past Tuesday. This way there is time to fix any issues that could potentially crop up and cause problems.
     
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