Enough Is Enough!!!

Back to the Desiroflirtostar conveyer belt on your 13 mile moth filled extravaganza

 

I see the "don't like it don't buy it" crowd is out in force for the 101, really getting sick of this useless argument. £30 for one bloody train and it only goes on two routes with the exact same timetable. Still no suspension btw

 

I find it funny how the pricing on a "Expert" level Loco DLC is what tears this forums apart in 2.

August is gonna be a fun month on here.

 

Oh I'm quite enjoying my Ge6/6 on the Engadin Line in TSC courtesy of the current sale. Lovely old electric loco. Might not be "Expert" level but it has more than a few switches in the cab including fan speed control that actually works. And the funny thing is, both the route and loco are by Rivet and both are quite superb. I also picked up the Surselvabahn so currently my UK Railrover in TSC has turned into a Swiss 5 day travel card.

 

Tsg is only a few people. It would be expensive to implement the expert 101 on every route where appropriate otherwise it would not release at all.

 

to be whats different between expert and a normal train?

 

I would usually agree but it is valid here, you aren't losing anything if you don't buy it, unlike the annual releases of the very same game!

 

but what is gonna happen on the other routes?
i don´t get it

 

And on future routes the new 101 is probably going to be the layer going forward for the 101.

So again paywall of some sort.

 

Especially if the layers are to use the cab car... old 101 becomes useless moving forward...

 

I’m confident this will be going for £15 come Xmas or at worst Easter Steam sale next year. Which still makes it more expensive than any other loco DLC, but a bit more pocket friendly. Or it will turn up as part of a completion bundle. Also gives time to wait and see how compatible it is with TSW5 and what support is forthcoming from TSG and DTG for any bugs that turn up. Remember, we still have a G6 Journey run that cannot be completed and both TSG and DTG seem to have washed their hands of that one!

 

There are at least two threads full of ire about the 101 pricing, the consequence of which will probably mean TSG will have no desire to do any more « expert » content due to DTG’s apparent policy of wanting to squeeze every last penny out of punters. A real shame for fans of German content.

 

The problem with going “Expert” so far as a train is concerned is that it largely amounts to a few procedural steps to set the cab up and get going. As I said earlier in another thread, you can do this in default SimRail if you do a single player scenario, for no extra cost. Once the train is moving, well a few tweaks to the physics and sound not, IMHO, worth £30. For flight simulation it’s slightly different as generally you are getting a much more authentic flight model, not just aliased to the default 737, Airbus or Cessna. Fuel management including cross flow to balance the weight rather than just one mass of kerosene. Dynamic faults, not confined to a scenario, which might test your skill flying with one engine shut down or doing a landing without ILS functional. With this 101 it looks as if faults and failures are not randomised on normal runs, just in scenarios with the reality being, if a loco suffers a serious mechanical or electrical fault out on the line, the driver brings the train to a stand, runs a check list. If that doesn’t sort it, ring the signaller, request an assisting loco and take a walk to put down detonator protection.

If this had been pitched at £20 or even £22, there would not have been this outcry all that will happen is that anyone with other than a fanatical interest in this product will wait for a sale or bundle, plus ensure it carries over okay into TSW5.

 

The 101 has a setup screen to adjust the RNG factor of the fault simulation. That seems like a pretty unlikely addition if the fault simulation were to be restricted to pre-scripted scenarios only.

 

Still, the point being in practice you wouldn’t sit blocking the main line for hours on end trying to fault find. You would declare the train a failure and request an assisting engine. Whereas with an aircraft you have no choice but to figure out how you’re going to land that broken 747 with 300 souls on board.

 

While I get that the entire point of this thread is to bash DTG, it's worth noting that the higher price for the 218 (£15 vs £13 normally) was a TSG decision, DTG wanted it kept at £13 but TSG felt they needed the higher price to cover their costs. The price for the 101 Expert will also have been set by TSG, not DTG.

And no, I am not suggesting TSG are being greedy, they are setting a price that makes building the product worthwhile to them, if they couldn't make a return then they wouldn't make the products.

 

Yeah like in International Rescue, oh Silly Me it is broken now and DTG is working hard to figure out how they can fix it now that they broke it.

 

Well, of course. While there are plently of smaller faults that can be troubleshooted and fixed on the fly, since a lot of it tends to be computer-related anyway nowadays, if the loco is FUBAR, there's not gonna be much that a driver can do aside from maybe limping it to the next station.

But all of that is way beyond the point I was trying to make. You said that you assume fault simulation is restricted to scenarios for some reason, but to me this seems quite unlikely, considering that there's an entire chaos factor setup for the fault simulation, which would be unnecessary if it's restricted to pre-scripted scenarios (and kinda defeat one of the main selling points of this loco). That's all.

 

Well, unlike DTG's, DLCs from 3rd parties usually don't get -50% discounts in the 1st year from the release (unless reviews are very poor, or there's some special event, not seasonal sale, then it may get to that point sooner). For example, I only recently got Horseshoe Curve, when it was -50% off for the first time, 2 years after its release.

 

So they're only paying the wages of a few people then

 

Complete tangent but I thought this appropriate atm both here on the forum and in the wider world.
Genius at work..

 

They already explained before the old 101 would be the main layer instead of the expert 101 because more players own it and they don't want players to be forced to buy the new 101. Duplicate timetables would be made with the expert if possible

 

Tsg as a team would want to be compensated fairly for the amount of work they put in which also funds other projects. They did say a while back that they don't earn enough for the amount of effort they put in. At the end of the day, they don't get much after you account for all the cuts to the publishers, platforms and game development costs

 

Now you're reaching. DTG can't even update timetable where necessary and all of a sudden they would make two at once whenever 101 is involved? They will either make them with the old 101 and Expert will only substitute, making the cab car useless (because of the ridiculously rigid system they have), or they will use the Expert one, putting those layers behind a hefty paywall. All because 3 years ago they wiggled their way out of making the cab car in the first place.

 

seeing the release stream of semmeringbahn where not everyone was aware on the dev team if there were or weren't more than 1 passenger coaches, if the mirrors worked or not. and the overall lack of a full timetable (missing services that are possible to put in with rolling stock existing in the game before release of the route) the missing catenary somewhere on all routes I would expect a "duplicate timetable" will be thrown to the "oh we had no time for it and will never come back to it if we have any time" section where the massive pile of bugs lies now. makes me think. does LZB work on the 1116 now or is that still not fixed since it released broken 3 months ago? would like to see that loco on the NJ services instead of the 101 now. since the 1116 drives them in germany.

 

DTG: suspension will be out by the end of july
end of july comes
not released, lol typical DTG, promise and undeliver

 

With a little help from Google Translate.
C'set La Vie Mon Cherie , Es ist das Leben, Schatz, 大切な人生だよ,
--
While I can speak it, writing it is another thing.
And Ez az élet drága = This Life is Expensive, roughly Translated.

 

We still have 3 hours and 59 minutes

 

The roadmap article did say end of July to beginning of August so there's still tomorrow and the coming days depending on how they define beginning

 

It would be an odd decision to release suspension imminently if (big if) TSW5 is just around the corner, given that support for the previous iteration ceases. One would think it would be more reasonable to expect it to be included in the next iteration to provide a justification/selling point and an opportunity for continued development/adjustment in a version that is still supported..

Just my idle thoughts. I have no idea how these things are decided..

Meanwhile back in TSW3 land, life is good

 

Oh, quit making excuses. I haven't been on this forum long but you seem to defend DTG for every little thing when they under-deliver

 

[Removed - DTG Alex: Insensitive]

 

Mmh sorry ?? That's quite offensive. You don't say that just because he doesn't agree with you

 

I thought better than that of you!

It isn't uncommon on here to see comments like fanboy, enabler, acolyte to try and discredit opinions, usually by people who have no other way of forming an argument. I didn't have you down as such a person, especially with a comment like that.

 

Please, there’s no need for that, especially on a forum which is dedicated to a hobby which has a number of neurodivergent people.

 

It wasn't intended to offend. It was however motivated by a desire to protect someone who might be vulnerable. That's all. If you check, you'll see I'm not the one throwing insults at him.

Suggestions on rewording can be edited in by myself.

BTW I personally find the term neurodivergent offensive. It implies there's a norm and if you're different you're diverging in some way. Differences should be celebrated if they are acknowledged at all, not treated as a source of offence, and we all bring something unique to the table, of deep inner value that is distinct from material possessions, career and the like. When people react without asking what the meaning is, checking for misunderstanding etc, and do so with extremes of righteousness, it makes me suspicious of the integrity of the response.

 

Will just throw my 2p in right here, because as someone well and truly on the aforementioned spectrum. I definitely hate being called vulnerable, I'm probably more mentally stronger than most here, my small chunks of autism in every bit of the scale pretty much have become my super power, people like myself don't want to be treated with kid gloves like we are made of fragile glass. Just bloody talk and treat us like the adults we are, I almost always want to just slap most of the population around the back of the head because they think I'm going to be slow and stupid when I tell them I'm autistic, but instead I drop a witty oneliner on them and prove that people like me are gods amongst the normal strain of humanity........

 

Anyhow back to the main event… In the Pricing thread a screen dump from another social media source purports to show the EP as stating he feels they should have been charging more not less for the “Expert” DB 101. What does that bode for the future of TSW? Discuss…

 

I have a pretty clear standpoint on this.

People do not value work and this will be a one-off experiment, showing that the willingness to pay for development that goes the extra mile is not there in the TSW playerbase. Economics will dictate that it was too much effort, leaving the devs sitting on their costs.

So this will be the first and last "Expert" loco. You cannot deliver this for people who don't want to pay.

And I don't think anyone at DTG is greedy. They are trying to make a living by producing stuff for a small market. Small market means higher price naturally, else you could just close down your business. Lowering prices and expecting to double the customers is not applicable in a train sim.

 

But surely part of the motivation for making this is the “labour of love”, too? No one really expects to get rich making train sim add ons certainly nowhere near enough to be viable as a full time occupation. When I became involved in the two payware projects for MSTS many years ago, I did it in my spare time and while the extra money at the end was nice (minus two years of having to declare extra income to the Inland Revenue) but my main motivation was working as part of a team of great people and seeing the finished product on a retail CD-ROM with my name in the credits. Financial gain was not my primary motivation nor was it thereafter when all my route building was directed into freeware production whether latter day MSTS, Railworks and Trainz. Though it’s currently a bit too hot to have the laptop on in the daytime blowing out warm air trying to run the TSC editor or Trainz Surveyor!

I don’t for one second suggest TSG, DTG and all the others who take a bite of the pie shouldn’t get a payday from their hard work but it needs to be at an affordable price which retains amity with the customer base. I mean, SimRail came in for a bit of criticism over their pricing of the ET22 pack which is comparable as it did come with some new wagons. But that seemed cheap by comparison with what we are being asked to pay for the Expert 101. Even the highly regarded Searchlight Simulation CP ES44 in TSC is only £26.99 (that one also earmarked by me as a sale item, tight fisted old git that I am).

 

Vern, you were working at the railway. It wasn't necessary to make money for you with your undoubtedly labour of love.

All I'm saying is in a market like train simming, demanding everything for a low price will inevitably lead to the market "closing" down someday, because you can't distribute the costs in a non existing million-players-market. Nobody will want to produce the stuff anymore except for freeware creators.

We're talking about prices that correspond to a good dinner (which gets flushed down the toilet the next day.) I have paid a good amount of money for TSC and got 8,000 hours of fun in return so far.

I've paid for the whole AP catalogue because it is my hobby and it makes me feel good, enjoying craftsmanship. You're not willing to pay expert devs, they'll disappear, leaving you with DTM style shovelware.

The market will dictate what DTG or TSG will be producing. Definitely no expert level anymore. Sad for the few like me, but has to be accepted.

If I were one of the EL101 devs, I'd already thrown out some rude insults to the "community" and called it a day, looking to get a job at a developer for FPS shooters to make a living with my UE skills.

I'm now waiting for the usual ad hominem attacks on me.

 

The output has changed from MSTS days, then we had some very dubious offerings from some payware outfits as well as some that knock it out the park (Making Tracks). Then in TSC we get similar although JT who gave us Blackpool in TSW didnt always deliver in the early days. MSTS and TSC came with a huge freeware community also some personnel had feet in both camps too.

Were we are now is shorter routes than the earlier platforms, the constant advice that its hard to develop for and we should be greatful for what we get etc. I am greatful for developers efforts payware or freeware but ultimately I buy most of my content in the sales (Just got Glossop for £4.80 on Greenman) because I dont feel its worth full whack. I think some agree and if this Expert loco doesnt sell well then that is that. I feel I could master the loco and happy to have random faults because I crave more realism but I already have a 101 and have paid for that also....

 

This is potentially where the cash cow limit lies. People may not feel the urge to pay for a dlc bundle/pay wall they dont want in order to buy the privilege of further buying a dlc they do want that already exhibits signs of issues in true to form style.
This may be labelled a lack of interest etc, but it may also be labelled a symptom of poor marketing practice by putting barriers to buying in place. Without data, either assumption is valid until proven true or false.

 

I'm a bit lost in this pricing discussion. Might be either my age or wrong medication pick this morning: How do we judge price worthiness of a mostly unknown product? Apart from some YT streams (the official being cancelled last night), nobody has enough details to grasp what has to be understood as "Expert Level" loco. No?!

Am I missing something?

TSG is always good for a (positive) surprise.
I don't mind a higher price tag for a more sophisticated product. What would rev me up, though, is the (strong) possibility to have all these features screwed up by DTG's legendarily ill-conceived "patches". Hell, the devs come already out by claiming to struggle with what must be caused by TSW Core's spaghetti code. BR101 Subbing in for Freight?

 

Well in the history of capitalism allied to consumerism, companies push their prices as far as they think they can get away with. They do it in increments, sometimes in larger jumps when there is a good excuse, such as the recent rising inflation and the Ukraine War.
DTG will look to see how this expert loco sells at their current price ranging, if it sells well then in the future they will be likely be more expensive, with the excuse of added features as is their way.
The beauty of having forums like this is aside from being a place for players to connect, it’s also a place for fanboys to dribble with anticipation and barely conceal their cult following of the companies products. Enough of these folk will open the door for ever increasing price hikes, assisted by the fact that there is no real competition out there, having the exclusive domain of SP train simulations puts DTG in a very strong place.

 

Brief tangent- did anything in TSW4 ever come of the request for the guards buzzer to sound when the passenger loading bar is complete, for those who enjoy playing hudless?

 

No. On some trains the guard’s buzzer is included as part of the door closing sequence. However, the buzzer will only sound when the doors have closed which the player still has to do themselves.

 

Thanks Stu. Maybe at some point it'll happen...

 

I am a now older adult on the spectrum wasnt diagnosed until my mid 40s and i grew up they didnt know as much about it like now its not easy for me to deal im not as high function as others that why its a spectrum because some have it severe others like me are middle of the road while higher function autisim can lead near normal lives ...I was playing trainz recently and found a easter egg in a locomotive DLC related to Autisim it was a hat on the top of the conductors side i zoomed in to read what said it read..Please be patient i have Autisim ..i kinda think that maybe the person or 1 of them who worked on that DLC could have it or someone close like family member

 

I'm in my mid 40's now, same with me growing up, everyone just assumed I was dum as rocks, they just couldn't understand that I was processing the world in a different way than them......