Enough Is Enough!!!

The other thing about UE5 is that although it looks fantastic in demo videos, could games with current hardware run games with acceptable FPS looking like that? It may be that we are another console generation away from seeing that at around 60 FPS.

 

Yeah it was better than it has been but there was stuttering. It was somewhat offset with profligate use of the freecam mode which was fair enough as it showed off the locomotive etc, but I stopped watching because I was so disappointed to see it there still.
Even JD provided a full explanation in the route FAQs.
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-4-–-what-you-need-to-know.73462/

 

Considering how much of a challenge ticking a 'volumetric fog' box was... TSW would NOT look this great in UE5.

 

Well, route launch was 16th of March, the patch for the missing water textures came out 7th of June. So, lightspeed for the common DTG tradition.

 

They were still trying to figure out the check box for volumetric lightning / fog in UE4 in the meantime.

Honestly, I remember when BRO was released and a day later we had a patch. I'm still sure that they just uploaded the wrong version so we got a lot of fixes in a short amount of time as the release was an older dev build.

Also Linke Rheinstrecke still has signal issues, I love this route, but I doubt it will ever be fixed, even if it is still the latest german content release, 6 month later not much happened on some of the issues reported on release day.

 

And now it's a legacy route from previous title, little hope you will see any update to signals even if you buy through the paywall.

 

I scrubbed through the live steam from yesterday and noticed that while they did give more physics to the trucks there are other parts of the train that have none. As in the image below.


And you can still get in the action with TSW3 there may be other sales, have not looked.

 

I have never in my life (and I've been around awhile) seen something 6 months old called "legacy" - but here we are.

 

It was I think, TSW2 that almost turned this to 11. The very original announcement was supposed to make all previously released content incompatible (because of the UE 4.16 to 4.23 move). Back then, if the community didn't lowkey riot, even a month-old content (the youngest DLC by that time was I think Class 20) would end up in a bin with absolutely no further support.

 

I think that was never going to happen, it was a classic say something awful and then when you backtrack a bit it will look fine. There are plenty of signs they were already working on moving the "preserved" content over. It was probably a mask for the dropping of NEC.

 

That's just sad. Remember when couplings, cables and gangways between carriages actually had animation to them in TSW?

It all started going downhill with TSW2 and Bakerloo Line, where the little rope thingies between the cars on the '72 stock were not animated in curves. Annoyed me since, but I assume they have never been fixed.

And with new releases it seems like it's not a priority at all, as this feature is forgotten altogether.

 

I was thinking about buying TSW 4 as all the new routes seem compelling to me, and even the Vectron and the updates Dresden line, which I don't have in TSW 3. But it only took a little effort to read through some of the "player feedback" threads to put me completely off from returning to this franchise (I haven't played in a while, I'm over at Flight Simulator). What a buggy mess! Broken lights, PIS boards, scenarios, sounds, services that don't register as completed, the list just goes on and on. Every other comment is a bug report. DTG has been doing this for many years now, and they put in so much effort into modeling the trains and the routes, and they just can't release a quality product. I remember how it is, I've been suffering from this many times in TSW Founders Edition, 2020, TSW 2, TSW 3. Purchased them all, bought new routes, and every single piece of content have had immediately noticeable, annoying, frustrating bugs every step of the way.

Another thing is that TSW 4 should've been an update to TSW 3, as it runs on the very same engine. Many of the new features were promised in TSW 3 anyway, and everything could've been implemented into that game, while the three new routes could've been sold as a new bundle, like the "Rush Hour" bundle was back in the day. Releasing it as a separate "new game" is purely a financial decision, which is appalling, given this is the same game. TSW would really benefit from not having numbering at all, and if it was treated like one unified platform, in which we could keep collecting routes and trains. But re-releasing it separately because it looks good on the quarterly report is counter-intuitive to how the game has been built in the first place. Being endlessly expandable is pointless if there's a new release every 1-2 years.

But the bigger problem is the sea of glitches and bugs, not to mention the "preservation" team's endless race to catch up and update old content, which only leads to even more bugs. This is unsustainable and unacceptable at this point. I feel DTG is operating with two halves. On one hand, the respective people pour their heart and soul into modeling the trains and environments, and creating the atmosphere. On the other, it just doesn't work. Features are broken, basic functions don't work or not as intended, the moment the game is available, the first users are flooding the forum with reports of annoying bugs. And the situation just doesn't seem to improve. We should be customers, not beta testers.

I would've been so happy to buy TSW 4, I was thinking about the Deluxe Edition no less, because I miss TSW and I have all my stats and routes there. But coming back to this forum and seeing all these problems and reports about the "new" game, it made me genuinely sad to realize nothing has changed. Big plans, big promises, cool looking content and then just bugs all over the place. Disappointing. Maybe TSW 5 next year...?

 

This thread is still going? Geez I've been too busy playing TSW4 to look.

And I'm enjoying it a hell of alot.

 

Still need 8 more pages

 

it will get there

 

I could do it. I could fill the next 8 pages with praise about TSW4. How well it is made and how DTG showed the critics that they are still the pinnacle of train simulators. Or I could fill 8 pages with rants on how I will never buy TSC if they don't become more like TSW.

Or we could just pretend this topic never happened. You just go buy TSW4 and I won't mock you for it. You don't have to wait an entire year until TSW5 comes out to start enjoying trains again.

 

TBH, it does feel like you've already made 8 pages worth of posts in this thread already, most of it borderline flamebaiting and it got old (at least for me) a long time ago already.

 

I know it would have been more fun if the launch was a disaster and I would be ranting and you could say "told you so". But that didn't happen so yes I understand the aggressive tone. I would be livid too

 

Only 8?

Why not more, more, more?

 

I'm not "livid", but thanks for proving my point. Maybe you should think which of us has an "aggressive tone" here. I mean, I'm no stranger to making snarky comments, but there's a limit.

For what it's worth, it's really good if the game's an improvement, that's much more important than some petty "told you so". Maybe I'll look into trying the game out when it's on sale (and assuming TSW5 doesn't happen before that, unironically). At least I'm happy I skipped TSW3.

 

Couldn’t agree more. He crossed the line into trolling a long time ago.

 

The first time you called me a troll for defending the TSW4 announcement was already crossing the line but now I'm not letting it pass. This ain't twitter so stop the aggressiveness towards people that don't line up with your view. Do not call me a troll!

 

I’m not being aggressive in any way, quite the opposite. As BlaringHorn said, it’s actually your tone that is often aggressive, remember how you gleefully said you were going to rub something in my face?

You’re constantly replying to people (in fact anyone that doesn’t kneel at your alter of TSW4) and deliberately trying to wind them up, it’s probably the reason this thread is still going. That is the definition of trolling, so if you don’t want to be called one then stop doing it.

 

Like everyone that does not kneel to declaring TSW a failure. You really need to take a deep look in the mirror.

You are on my ignore list. You will not bully me anymore

 

In slang, a troll is a person who posts or makes inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages online…with the intent of provoking others into displaying emotional responses

There’s your mirror.

 

wasn't this all about paying for fixes and locking them behind another version? so even if tsw4 was perfect the point still stands

 

The number of likes the Enough Is Enough!!! post above relative to counter views is getting is in itself informative for me. If I were a DTG strategist, I wouldn't be sitting in my office wiping sweat from my brow at the relatively smooth launch of TSW4 (why wouldn't it be smooth when its TSW3 2.0 by all but the narrowest of margins, but that's a separate conversation). I'd be sitting there asking myself why there's a number of people pressing the like button on a post like that. I'd be asking myself if there are lost sales as a result, and I'd be asking myself if the potential exists to carry the room as a whole for the long term with relatively little disruption to the company in the short term.

I said previously that if it goes quiet its either because the product is finally where it can be or because the fence sitters have left and the hard core brand loyalists are the only ones left. I count myself very firmly in the former camp and I've found myself hardly thrilled over the last few days. Not dismayed, just not bothered enough to buy in to the promise of better to come when that promise is rarely fulfilled. People are coming on the forums in general not to bash, but to offer suggestions to improve. In some cases those contributions are (or sound to me) incredibly knowledgeable. Its seldom resulted in any movement forward however, and it only continues for so long before people tune out. Its those people, the people who are on the fence and are yet to buy into TSW4, the people who are forum stalkers who rarely contribute but who nevertheless have purchasing power. I'd be thinking about them if I were sat in DTG's office tomorrow morning.

I certainly wouldn't be listening to the people who agree with me. If I wanted that, I would make use of that mirror that's so much in demand at the moment..

I'd be listening to people like Please Optimize Tsw4 Engine.ini and asking myself is this a view that has any mileage..

 

Same as AustraliaSD40, both trying their hardest to be picked as 'ambassadors' yet come across as arrogant and beggy and utter trolls

 

To be honest at this point we can divide into roughly 5 categories:

Those who bought the Deluxe edition and think nothing is wrong.
Those who bought the Deluxe edition and think it’s mostly great but some areas could be better.
Those waiting to buy a Standard edition next Tuesday.
The malcontents who will probably sneak in and buy it anyway.
The vociferous malcontents who will never buy it but seem to get a thrill out of posting their thoughts despite the majority just getting on with it and enjoying the game.

I sit firmly in the second category.

 

I said I wasn't going to buy it after the announcement, the streams didn't sway me either. However, after being given a code for the deluxe edition, apart from scotsman, its not as fantastic as others are making out. I guess that puts me half in cat 2 aswell.
I mean I don't want to see DTG fail, however, I want them to start doing better than they have since TSW 2

 

I don't see it as arbitrary as this. There are also the broadly indifferent who flit between simulators and genres as the mood takes them.
Malcontents is quite a loaded term, and majority is always relative.
Trying to achieve concensus on even this is unlikely given the almost instinctive apparent reaction amongst rail enthusiasts to disagree on everything..
That goes for me as well

 

No, it's just two categories.
(1) Those who thrive on telling people how wonderful the game is.
(2) Those who thrive on telling people how not wonderful the game is.

Mind you, there is a third, lesser used option.
Those who start in camp (2) then get a refund......and then rebuy the content so they can go into camp (1).
In the olden days these people were called hypocrites.

 

TSW 4 isn't bad, but seems poorly planned and received.

-Did the new updates really need a brand new game?
-Did it have to come 1 year after TSW3? Could it not wait another year?
-Do we really need a 3 route bundle on a yearly basis?
-Its is bad that DTG puts patches out for the newer game 1st before the older one (If the older one even gets it at all, like the now dead TSW 2 patches)

 

On your last point, I'll be watching closely in TSW3 to see if it receives those. I don't have TSW4 as I'm not interested.

 

To be honest my expectations are not high. The reason- we've seen a watering down of TSW4 wrt layers for gen 8 and 9 already, delays on features that will not now ship at launch and so on.
There's history on this and it's a poor look. It gives an impression of product being rushed out the door incomplete or lacking quality and my own view is its detrimental to the brand.

The infuriating thing is that from the outside, it doesn't have to be this way. Why the rush when there's a clearly loyal customer platform? Why the consistent and evidential lack of regard for resolving issues? Why in general is it not better, or indeed getting better except in incremental terms?
Is it a capability issue or a corporate issue?
All good questions that feed into my personal consumer choices. I've got money to spend (probably because in part that i try to be a discerning consumer but largely because I've been blessed with a fortuitous career path), and DTG could make a mint from someone like me.
But they consistently provide me with good reasons not to.

So please (as I stand up to pound the table dramatically) start cooking on gas and elevate the franchise to what it can be.

 

I wish I could give more than 1 like for this spot on comment.

 

My thought is that it's a corporate issue (I don't mean to pick and choose from your excellent reply here but this particular question stood out). Capability is certainly there - remember how excited we were in 2017-2018 when TSW first came out and it was like "well I'm getting 7 frames per second BUT it's trains!" And then the general improvement and new Routes for the pinnacle (and still record-holding for peak playership) version, TSW2. Even the potential disaster, Rush Hour, got fixed for the most part. So I don't think it's capability; it's corporate expectation - the wheel of "get more done in less time" and Quality suffers. This part is universal. Using the customer as beta testers has been long-standing, and most of us don't mind doing that - as long as we feel our feedback is being heard. Now we have the yearly release / subscription / paid update / or whatever one wants to call it, and that is corporate all the way. I don't blame DTG for that because I also work for a company that has been bought (twice); and as attributed to Prince about original music content, "If you don't own your masters, your Masters own you." We'll continue to see non-perfect, non-optimized content as long as the business model is "move it along out the door and get more people buying it." However if the numbers could be obtained, I'm not sure we would see that borne out.

 

Thanks for engaging and I like the thought you've put into your answer. I think you could be right. I'd love to be a fly on the wall inside DTG sometimes..

 

I don’t wish to be a stick in the mud but I can’t understand how people are saying that TSW4 is good.

if you’re enjoying it then that’s fine, please carry on. But fundamentally it is still fraught with countless problems and it’s still nothing close to being a simulator.

 

Could you perhaps elaborate or specify a little more? We know that it's TSW3 with new 3 new Routes and new features - but what makes a good simulator - what would make it good for you?

 

Obviously, we expected a train sim to come with full cabin, complete with controls and wrap-around monitors for windows. That's not too much to ask!

 

The amount of problems the porting over had to go through would still suggest they didn't want to do that at all. Some trains ended up with broken sounds that have never been fixed since.

 

If it's OK I'd like to jump in here briefly.

Basic attention to quality:
Reduction or elimination of stutters.
Reduction or elimination of flickering.
Better sound engineering.
A strategy for resolving bugs/quality shortfalls.
Comprehensive patch notes for the above.


That's where my purchasing threshold sits.

 

For me it would be all of those, plus better Raildriver support (or other external controller support), capability in the cab to zoom out enough to be able to see the track ahead and the controls at the same time, more realistic external environment (behavior of road traffic and passengers); and perhaps more realistic dynamic weather (TSW3 was a good start on that). Beyond that, a business model more like other notable game studios, with regular communication (not a blackout before release), and a new game which is actually a new game or major expansion at least (for example, Creative Assembly with the Total War series).

 

For a start, it would be good if you would actually be able to play a simulator with the HUD off.

As it is now in TSW, you cannot play with the HUD off, as you either:

• Can't see the in-cab display lights
• In-can display is not implemented at all or only partially
  
• Can't hear the audio alarms
• Trackside signalling and signage is obstructed
• Trackside signalling and signage is missing
• Trackside signalling and signage in incorrect

Let me also mention the countless examples where the timetable is incorrect, cannot be completed without delays or trains just get stuck altogether after a while, getting the whole railway system into a gridlock scenario.
There are also examples where the safety systems are incorrectly implemented or just buggy altogether, once again making prototypical driving impossible with the HUD off.

 

TBH I would have bought it already, but... it performs like TSW3 so, I can't.

 

(adding to what others have mentioned)

Actual dynamic dispatching, we're four iterations of TSW in and the game just can't handle pathing the train a different way. And it simply doesn't seem to be a burning problem for them. It is such an incredible limit for actual expansion of the game. You can't properly do busier single track routes, because the meeting points are very rigid. If you happen to have some hard coded way of picking junctions based on delays, the trains still take their relative tracks even if there's no other train. Fast trains can't force stoppers to take a siding if it's not in the timetable. This would help with so many of the red light issues, the game simply figuring out the situation.

 

How as this got 1,000+ replies.

 

I know one thing I ain't buying TSW4. I'm sick of dovetail making the same game over and over and over and calling it a new one when all they did was put in a few bug fixes.
Dovetail needs to go take lessons from Sean Murray at Hello Games who made no man's sky. You Don't See Hello Games going oh no man's Sky 2 no man's sky 3 no man's Sky 4 no man's Sky 5 no it's still no man's sky with an absolute ton of updates. Now am I a No Man's Sky lover sort of, I like my trains a bit better than I do no man's sky.
Dovetail would have more of my respect if they quit producing the same game over and over and over again year after year.

 

I will say after my foray into TSW3 tonight some of the bugs are just a nightmare so dropping support is very disappointing. Tonight I spent 15 minutes trying to spawn at the right station for a 66 service (starting it in journey sent me to a different station each time) and once I got the right station I wasn't even allowed to drive it (or it'd end my journey attempt) and I had to sit in the secondman seat until the AI completed the objectives for me.

Admittedly I had a few good runs on SOS, TVL and Other SEHS services with minimal difficulty. But I thought this spawning issue was meant to have been sorted ages ago?

I personally haven't got TSW4. The ECML doesn't really interest me so will be waiting for some kind of sale as the only reason to get it for me right now is for BPO which does look like a route which has had care, time and attention put into it.