Enough Is Enough!!!

Have to correct you, according to Wikipedia Kuju did work on MSTS 2 initially.

Quote:
On May 7, 2003, Microsoft announced that it would be developing a sequel called Microsoft Train Simulator 2;[18] it was first demoed to the public at E3 on May 15.[19] Seemingly, its main improvements were the addition of people to the game (e.g. passengers waiting at the stations, people operating the new locomotive roster, etc.) and turntables. It was being developed by Kuju Entertainment, the original MSTS creators. Despite restructuring efforts at Kuju, the project was handed over to Microsoft Game Studios on August 18, 2003.[20]

This project was ultimately halted, as the following statement on April 24, 2004, from Microsoft confirmed:

Microsoft Game Studios has halted the Windows-based game "Train Simulator 2.0." The decision to halt "Train Simulator 2.0" was made some time ago and was based on a long, hard and difficult look at our business objectives and product offerings. We remain focused on the simulations category with successful, platform-driving franchises such as "Microsoft Flight Simulator."[21]

Kuju then finished their work with support by Fund4Games (logo still appears on the TSC splash) and publisher EA, before DTG came.

Fun fact: the MSTS blueprints all have a unique header... SIMIS. Jinx!

Code:

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( GP38
   Type ( Engine )
   WagonShape ( gp38.s )
   Size ( 3.1m 4.768m 18.879m )
   comment( 250000lbs US )
   Mass ( 113.4t )
   WheelRadius ( 20in )
   InertiaTensor ( Box (3.1m 4.8m 19.1m) )
   Coupling (
       Type ( Automatic )
       Spring (
           Stiffness ( 1e6N/m 5e6N/m )
           Damping ( 1e6N/m 1e6N/m )
           Break ( 1.1e7N 1.1e7N )
           r0 ( 20cm 30cm )

 

Y'all have really educated me on the roots of train sim games as a whole, it really is something when you look deep and see the roots of DTG, well at least how they got started til today. I never really got into sim games, for many years, but in 2022 I found TSW3 and started a deep dive, some might even say a crazy one But as I have said many times ya can't take it with ya. And while I got caught up in this thread and a few others, I did take time to make a few graphics but held off on posting them. I really should have posted them asap, and I honestly did not expect this to happen this quick.

I do understand this is no revelation to most if not all, except for those that are new Train Sim XX
But WoW did this move Fast...

For those that don't know open the image in a new tab to see the full image.

I posted this on Steam
TSW3 Sale On XBox_2023-08-30_19-55-23

to show the date I created it.

The one thing I forgot to add to it "So When Does This Happen To TSW3 & 4"

And here it is

 

So in a sense, they Jinxed themselves, right out of the train sim game

 

Running smoothly over here on TSW2

 

Well so far I'm hapily suprised by my recent upgrade to TSW3. I was afraid for the stutterfest so I waited a year and last time it was so cheap that I gave it a try. It runs actually the same and smooth as TSW2 . Playing on Xbox series S. No need for TSW4.

 

I hope there will never be updates for TSW3 (yes, I am also in the club of "non-buyers" of TSW4) when I read what new bugs there are for TSW3 content in TSW4. Content that previously worked reasonably well in TSW3 is now worse in TSW4 (TSW Compatible Content). Just to name a few examples: Rain in London Underground, Massive Stutters, Passenger behavior, OHLE looks terrible, etc.
I like to look at the threads for TSW4...just to gloat about how crappy this game actually is and how buyers have been fooled.
I hope they don't make TSW3 worse with their "Bug fixes".

 

Agreed. I'm left with the distinct feeling that staying with TSW3 is best for now.
One bit of advice, don't update it (if any updates arrive). Copy and rename your folder etc if you're on steam. It might take up a bit of space but if you pare it down to the core and your most played dlc it's straightforward enough.

PS- the irony of hoping for no updates to TSW3 is not lost on me..

 

My opinion;

TSW4 isn’t LOVE. I absolutely had/have issues with being forced (and yes, I mean forced because it’s either buy this or bow out) to purchase it, and I really don’t like the fact that fixes for TSW3 are only being brought forward to TSW4 and locked behind a paywall. I find that very cynical behaviour but that’s water under the bridge now. It is what it is.

However…the game itself isn’t LOVE and is better than, and a decent step forward from, TSW3. Like it or not that is fact. Sure there are bugs (whenever are there not?) and some less than carefully put together elements, but on the whole the new features are worthy additions and the new routes set a new benchmark. When they finally get it working the editor is going to be a good thing, it’s just going to have to be up to players to filter the wheat from the chaff.

So, in summary the game is good, at times it’s excellent. The way the game came about is questionable. If you’re not buying it on principle then good for you, but don’t not buy it because you think it’s rubbish, because it isn’t.

 

TSW4 is fine for me. The photomode and free roam features are fun to use, freeroam especially on old routes is tons of fun.
It's certainly not buggier, or more issue prone than TSW3. They're just different bugs.
TSW3 content is certainly not "worse" in TSW4, and I've played most of it.

No regrets, or being fooled whatsoever. Very, very happy with my purchase. Enjoying the new content, and loving the new features. TSW3 is uninstalled for good.

 

Raining in underground stations sounds pretty LOVE to me. Not being able to complete services sounds pretty LOVE too. The list is long, and hardly compelling. No principles required really.
Edited to remove sarcastic comment. Shouldn't have written it.

 

You’re absolutely right. Things that weren’t good enough in TSW2, TSW2:RH and TSW3 are still not good enough in TSW4. DSD’s going off in neutral, out of whack sound mixes, blue flashes in tunnels (I mean, seriously!), signals not working as designed, GSM-R’s going blank etc are simply not good enough, and indicative of the ‘less than careful’ work that I alluded to above. Carrying known and obvious bugs from one DLC to the next is bad enough, but carrying them to a new version of the game is almost unforgivable. To be clear I don’t mean on routes where these issues already exist, I mean carrying those same errors onto new TSW4 routes.

Is TSW4 worse than previous iterations for this though? In truth no, it isn’t. Should these things have long since been ironed out and consigned to the history bin by now? 100% yes. The game remains painfully inconsistent, swinging from ‘wow’ one minute to ‘WTF?!’ the next.

We all know what we’re getting with TSW. The question is whether or not, on balance, TSW4 is better than TSW3. The un-arguable truth is that it is.

 

I am still (for the past few months on TSW3 & 4), unable to complete any Javelin/TGV services on SEHS, a crash either at St Pancras, Stratford, Ashford or when I am at/near the end of completing a service.

That issue alone needs to be sorted ASAP before any new TSW versions.

 

I like TSW2 simply because it looks and runs the way it did on the day it was abandoned, and I am concerned about what tinkering with TSW3 might do in light of what I am reading about "legacy" content in TSW4. There's a chance I could come back to TSW3 depending on whether it is abandoned now, which seems likely; because I do like some of the Routes that were added under TSW3.

 

Same here. The only thing TSW4 provides is free laughs

 

I basically picked up TSW3 for SEHS-ext, and for access to any new content that came out. I figured that a new version every two years was a price I was willing to pay. The funny thing is that the only TSW3 content that I ended up getting was the Acela and 700, with "plans" for NYT. Although, I do admit that the dynamic weather turned out to be more of a game changer than I thought, especially concerning replay of routes, all rain tendencies notwithstanding.

But, yes, there is no way now that I can see myself getting TSW4. I don't want to jeopardize older content, especially one of my all-time faves DRA. I don't support the move to a yearly paywall. I feel like, after paying for SEHS, and paying for the 700, I should just get the stop markers, regardless of whatever else I do or do not buy. Ad infinitum.

Even if something amazing was introduced for TSW4 that I absolutely want, say New Haven line, GCT and NYP all the actual way to New Haven, with all services, I still wouldn't get it because I know it would be broken and not fixed (if at all) until TSW5. So, I do agree with people who are holding out and definitely think that's the way to go, just wait until TSW5 and buy that along with whatever you wanted from TSW4, all fixes "included." Just because DTG is moving to yearly paid updates, doesn't mean we have to.

 

I don't know about yearly paid updates anymore. Maybe after this year's fiasco they'll think twice about it next year. I guess it all depends on how many put up with it and keep buying. Time will tell.

 

It will get more and more difficult with each game update, as content is growing.

Incompatibilities will rise, old scenarios not working / locos not working in FreeRoam. And no Preservation Crew that would be needed.

In fact, you need ALL versions of TSW installed to enjoy each DLC in its best state (which is not the latest state - the formula is release, improve, break). The mess is getting bigger and bigger, and the TSW "4" launch was nothing but a disaster.

I love how they take their time now slowly updating TSC on the beta branch without rushing. It's a 700+ DLC monster (plus much more freeware) and needs careful approach, already supporting legacy blueprints and you can run RailSimulator content on it if you wish to. The game works well now, editor is stable, performance is great on my system locked to 75 FPS with few occasions where it drops to 40, there's mods for all your needs.

They will have to eventually drop all the legacy content and develop a real TSW 2 from scratch moving on to a more recent engine version.

 

Another example of good game development and customer care is the Reentry simulator, using the Early Access cash for constant development and cleaning out all bugs. You'll not get charged twice. (In fact, it even encouraged me to make a donation to the dev just because I appreciate it so much. You can spend hours flipping switches (almost ALL switches are working and the circuitry is simulated) and preparing the fully detailed Apollo spacecraft for launch, even realistically programming its rudimentary computer. TakeOff is very rewarding, and it teaches you stuff, I like that.)



There's a russian developer who tried the DTG method.

Releasing an early access game where you could ride on a russian train as a passenger. Promising updates. Suddenly the game was abandoned, it appeared under a different name, being the same game still, but you needed to buy it again to get the updates. They got their deserved shitstorm, even though it was very low priced, the principle was what made people mad. We've paid you to develop this game, and you're grabbing the cash and start the same bs again. Broken trust is not easily restored, if at all.

Considering the glaring issues, I still consider TSW to be a beta, this forum is exactly what defines a beta testing feedback forum. Almost nothing fully works, not fully developed. TSW 0.9b aka Train Simulator 2 Prototype.

Now there's a change in the code making the game very slow loading up (And strange half a second splash image switching, unprofessional). I thought the AddonManager enabled me to toggle layers, can't think of another use for it - what's to manage? I've bought a PC game and do not want console code in there. I don't care for consoles, that's not what I've paid for. I feel sorry for the console players actually because they have the lowest possible TSW experience. But - freedom of choice.

Mod support is restricted - game released anyway, nothing's finished not even the SIMPLEST things like working head and taillights. If I setup the DPU on my train in Run 8 Train Simulator, I can be sure that the trailing headlights turn to dim when I turn the rear headlights knob in my leading cab. TSW, the self proclaimed "future of train simulation" (how I dislike these kind of claims...) fails in achieving such a simple and basic thing, it's nothing but a shame. No software is bug free is a silly claim btw. and completely misses the point. There is bug free software.

I wonder if all this pressure the undoubtedly hard working "coalfaces" at DTG must suffer due to their horrible management team - yes Mr. Rissik and M. Larue, I hope you are reading your forums (but I doubt it) - will lead to a wave of employees calling in sick. I've been through that myself - many of my colleagues have. It made a difference. But I'm aware of the situation in IT generally. Everyone fears for their jobs.

Often referred to rightfully, Euro Truck Simulator 2 devs SCS Software's device is: Release when it's done.

 

It's funny how, with time, this accidental tag deep within the game files becomes more and more accurate. It's sad that it's accurate six years and four iterations later though.

 

Enjoying TSW4 and I think generally it birthed quite well.

However…

The editors were a culture shock and I do think expectations could have been managed better, that it’s not a tool like Surveyor or TSC editor where you can jump in and have a route up and running fairly quickly.

As I posted previously I did not enjoy having to download more data than it takes to install MSFS and not being able to play the game during that time.

As per the thread that has popped up about BBO, it doesn’t look as if back catalogue content was thoroughly tested to see if anything was broken by TSW4. No one realistically expects every timetable run to be checked but a cross section, plus scenarios plus some Journey elements might have revealed numerous runs are getting stopped outside Bremen with a stand off that didn’t occur before.

 

It's not accidental. It is the name of their Unreal Project folder since day one, probably 2015 when TSW development started.

 

Why are people insistent TSW is now a yearly release with TSW5 coming out next year. Its happened ONCE, not twice, not thrice.

Seems to me TSW4 was only released this year due to the Focus buyout.

 

And your evidence for that is?

 

I can't speak for the "people" you're referring to, but I'd say it's called "recognizing patterns and trends". Trend predicts shorter release periods, simple statistics.

 

See if you can spot the trend..



DTG statement regarding Focus- (My underline)
"For years, the studio has adopted a robust business model based on synergies between full game releases and a strong live service content strategy providing recurring revenue. Indeed, in addition to its core products, Dovetail has created and maintained an extensive library of 900+ pieces of DLC, delivering players a steady stream of new content, quality of life updates, catalog choices and deep engagement.

From Focus-
This acquisition of this UK-based studio, with established owned IPs and delivering recurring revenue is aligned with Focus’ Strategy and is a step forward in moving up the value chain."

Key takeaways-

-"delivering recurring revenue
-a step forward in moving up the value chain
-Dovetail should record in excess of £15m in revenue for the year ending March 31, 2023.
-For years, the studio has adopted a robust business model based on synergies between full game releases and a strong live service content strategy providing recurring revenue
-This acquisition of this UK-based studio, with established owned IPs and delivering recurring revenue is aligned with Focus’ Strategy..."

Expect a deepening of the strategy, not a reversal of it.

 

Just a random assumption.

 

The people I'm referring to are those that keep saying so, and the trend up until now was every 2 years, TSW4 being the exception.

 

You might be right, but I differ from your conclusion of the assumptions consequences.

 

All that tells me is that TSW4 is the only game to release a year after another. Nothing says that the trend will continue.

 

Yes, everybody's free to draw their own conclusions and discuss them. In the end we'll see.

 

Based on the evidence, what do you think is the more likely? A re-release in a year or two, or consolidation and fixes of TSW4?
The passage of time will inform us, but we can make an educated prediction based on what has gone before..

 

I know, the accident being that it could not be renamed later. Matt mentioned in one stream this was only a WIP name and was supposed to change, but it's pretty much impossible with Unreal projects, hence it stayed.

 

Well half of what N3V do with Trainz still happens under Auran named items, despite Auran having gone to the wall many years ago.

 

...unless you're starting a new project

 

Because now it's evident that some people buy it even if it releases just one year after the previous one. Higher ups see this and will say it is a yearly release from now on. Because if people keep buying them yearly, then they will keep releasing them yearly.

 

Exactly, and it is irrelevant in which state the "new" game is at that time, as the patches will be delivered later anyway.

 

Classic market-economy stuff: companies want to make more money, clients want new products.

 

If only this was a new product...

 

It certainly has a lot more features to make it a new product

 

Of course people will buy it, but depends on their motivation.

They buy it because of a new feature or promised bug fixes.

 

people shouldn't have to buy a 'new product' for bug fixes to an old product.
...or is it actually just tsw3 with updates to existing features/dlc-content, as well as features/dlc-content which should of come for tsw3 bundled for this 'new product'

 

Of course you shouldn't, but it's either that or stick with a broken game. Both lose-lose situations, but I don't think the developers really care that much.

 

I consider having to pay for patches a lose situation as well, so I would just rather stick to my old copy or leave the franchise. I mean TSW is not a necessity - if it does not deliver my expectations, I can just choose to put it aside. I don't have to buy it.

But of course I keep complaining here, because obviously I would prefer it if they used more sensible and consumer friendly approaches. That way I would be able to continue enjoying this product, while they would continue to get money form me. It's a win-win!

 

Well, I confess, temptation got the better of me and I made a TSW purchase!
So....do I think TSW4 is any good?

The answer to that question is: "I've absolutely no idea" because what I actually did buy was TSW3 when it fell off gamepass and went ultra-cheap...so what that know means is that I received all those TSW2 updates (and more) that DTG promised and never delivered completely free of charge, as well as four (three core + SOS) routes for less than half the price of a TSW3 addon for my troubles.

Kinda looking forward to the arrival of TSW5 now .

 

Now if this isn't a positive signal of intent, I don't know what is! Best indication I've seen in a while for positive change.
Thumbs Up!

 

There is better evidence to say that yearly releases are the plan (or was the plan, if they've read the room like normal people would) - the time between TSW releases has decreased every single time.

• TSW1 - 2017
• 2 - 2020 (three years)
• 3 - 2022 (two years)
• 4 - 2023 (one year)

Amusingly, if the time between releases is seemingly halving, that means TSW5 will release in March. (This is a joke)

Based on Focus' expectations for DTG, they'll likely be sticking with yearly releases and the price of DLC will likely rise or stay the same. One could argue DTG have been successful, as TSW4 is currently sitting above 1000 current players, higher than TSW3 even before TSW4 was on the table. However, we are still in the launch peak each TSW game since 2 has had, and considering the decrease in the overall peak for the game's players, the hypothesis that I made earlier in this thread seems like it's going to come true. Granted, TSW3's launch peak was similar to TSW4's, but within three weeks the game had dropped in popularity to roughly 700 players, which is where TSW's general player number statistic lies, and has done for many years.

TSW3:

TSW4:


The above graphs show the very early days of both games. The complete data for TSW4 ended yesterday, so only the first six days can be used as empirical evidence. To keep things fair, I will only be looking at the first six days of TSW3 as well. Look at both graphs, and notice how similar they are, just that TSW4 is slightly lower than TSW3.

Anyway, the hypothesis I have and still believe is that there are a group of TSW players who will play the games regardless. Other communities would call them 'whales' but I don't think the meaning of that works here - the definition of one is somebody who spends a lot of money on DLC/microtransactions, but as TS and TSW both have a 'collection' format for DLC, where there is not much of a 'collect them all' aspect; you can pick and choose what you want. That said TSW's trend when it comes to new routes is to focus on layering but include less in routes, which encourages you to buy more routes to get the trains from them for another route. This can be argued as being a predatory marketing practise that is designed to appeal to 'whales', but then again to most PC players TSW itself is a predatory marketing practise. Anyway, the point is that while the decrease in players will be slow, there are a certain amount of players (roughly 700 on PC) that will buy every new version of TSW. The reasons for this will vary, but the proof is there - every TSW game slips to roughly 700 concurrent players when there isn't an ongoing spike in player numbers, and this is seemingly not affected by the actual sales of the game or said spikes. People seem to buy the game but not play it much afterwards except for the roughly 700 players.


Once again, I'd like to remind players who are disappointed with the business practises of DTG that if you want them to abandon yearly releases and treat their customers like human beings, and/or to adopt the same business strategy they've been successfully using for TS for more than a decade, that the only solution is to not buy TSW4 and to not buy DLC. I haven't bought it or any DLC since the announcement (although not as a protest, I'm just not interested in it), and based on what Focus have said, DTG will have little say in their business strategy. The only way to get the message to Focus to listen is by not buying the new game. Of course if we do it too much we might accidentally tell Focus that DTG isn't worth keeping and they'll shut them down like Embracer with Volition, but to be honest, taking into account their actions throughout the time I've been involved in TS and TSW for the last ten years, that wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

It's worth bearing in mind too that once thete is a product worth buying, the majority if users still playing TSW3 and before will likely buy into that, so some homogenisation of the numbers is likely at some point (I hope).
Lots of assumptions in this post I know. Probably best characterise these ramblings as wishful optimism..

 

I'm not sure how it counts as optimism. It's a prediction based on what has already been happening, and has done so for the past four years or more.

 

Indeed. For clarity I was referring to my own words.

 

I see now, sorry about that.