Enough Is Enough!!!

No one would be posting here if DTG released patches at least every two weeks, write what they are fixing at the moment. Not another announcement of new routes, locomotives, etc. What difference does it make if everything will have a ton of bugs anyway? Which will probably never be fixed.

 

I wouldnt mind EMUs providing they are slam door!

 

I understand that, we can all have a civil conversation, discuss the issues, and have some tea(one lump or two?) and crumpets, and even have some laughs. The message I'm trying to convey? The issue of piracy and quality and doing right by the customer, ie; we the players, this is coming from someone who's been in the business of developing games for many years and I see it as a message that more developers should maybe listen to, and maybe we wouldn't have as many bug filled games, yes, every game is gonna have its share of bugs or glitches or fixes that need to be made.

As for Denuvo, I'll leave that to the Denuvo thread that's already on here. The only reason why I brought that up is because of the changes happening with "PullUps" and in the prior post, I copied their earnings and losses that they posted publicly. And I believe that the use of Denuvo is them trying to stem the flow of lost funds due to piracy, but someone that's gonna pirate the game, they're gonna find a way(Denuvo or not) Denuvo has been cracked, it has been stated by many other people but then again that's already been discussed in the Denuvo thread, I'm getting off track, pun intended.

All I'm trying to do is show that there are people in the industry longer than I've been playing games, talking about how to make the game better, looking at how you can correct the issues and provide a better product. Yeah, back in the day I tried to look and see who was making what game, I just wanted to see who was making it, now, I want to see what they say considering where gaming has gone to and the quality that we're getting(or lack thereof in some cases). The Four Steps For Fixing Design Problems

That's basically it, the message I'm getting, maybe I'm reading into, but if you just provide a good quality product and just double triple and quadruple check that it's not going to have any major issues and stop worrying about who's going to pirate your game, it's going to happen whether you want it or not, it doesn't matter how big a developer you are, one of the biggest things I don't hear about anymore is Punkbuster, all it did was cause nothing but problems and I never played MMO or PvP but it seems like that's something else that dust in the wind.

At the end of the day, worry about your product quality, you know, like a shiny new Bentley or a rusted flat tired Volkswagen beetle, which one would you buy if they were the same amount of money? While I may stumble in the way I try to get my point across who better to listen to? Me, the Ole Gamer, or the guy(s) who's been making the games we all play, that's why I posted the links to these videos.

Thanks to my Gen Z daughter for writing all this while I flap my gums.

 

Really well put. Make sure we all remain in discussion in the particular forums page we are in. Show some respect to one another. We are a community. We are not hear to argue but to have a bit of fun discussing our obsession with trains

 

I'll take a Volkswagen Beetle.

 

No, sorry.

The pirate apologists are way off and the last few decades have only shown this. 20 years ago when the OG Napster was in its heyday it was unthinkable you would ever have to pay for any music, tv or movie ever again, it was just there to download for free.

Fast forward to now and we have people signing up for streaming services left right and centre. Netflix just had a huge clampdown on password sharing and their subs have skyrocketed as a result.

Ultimately people aren't naive and know what theft looks like, they also feel compelled to pay their way and see it as honourable. Those few people who try and push back against anti-piracy tools just look naked now, there is nowhere to hide, you are just trying to justify theft.

There is only one reason you are anti-copy protection and that is because you want to steal it. its like being anti-burglar alarm or anti-car alarm. Matt has said how naive it is to think this isn't an issue for software creators.

Even those videos above are full of comments below about people saying they pirated the game, then went back and paid for it afterwards. Well wouldn't you think that it just goes to show you should have paid for it in the first place? Maybe we could get back to demos and trials etc, the steam 2 hour window functions a bit like this, by no means am I saying that you should buy blind. However there are even a couple of people on these forums who seem to brag in every post or two about the steam content that they have stolen for free. (one is a well known womble) and this is pretty tiresome, it isn't funny, or cool, you aren't impressing anyone, if you like the content then pay for it.

 

The issue with Denuvo is not an issue with antipiracy software generally. It is an issue with this specific antipiracy software, Denuvo, which is crude, performance-killing LOVE. There are much, much better options on the market and DTG should avail themselves of one of them.

 

Hiiii am I one of thoseee

 

As for the antipiracy topic, issue, it's not that I want to pirate anything, I am not and many others are not naive not at all, but here is a question to all. Why is it that this title no longer uses Denuvo? But TSW__ Does?


I am not nor are many here looking to steal any content. But there is Denuvo = antipiracy software then there is Steam = antipiracy software. Car alarms had them, my car was still stolen, and I spent big money to have installed. House alarms, while they may help alert the local PD, house, and car alarms, they are noise makers, and most people pay no mind, why? The rumble of loud bikes and a good heavy wind will set off car alarms. and if they really want to get in your house they will, in my area, thieves were climbing in the back window of the house.

And now they are setting up Cameras to watch houses to see when people leave and come back, then they can time it just right to break in and steal. The average 911 call in the US takes about 3 to 5 minutes, response time could be up to 5 min, in that time a lot of damage can be done. Not to mention the MICU and EMS to respond.


As for the purchase and not stealing. This is just a small snapshot of what I spent, through steam. So yes I want TSW to be better, not filled with trash like Denuvo.
Yes this will be removed in a day.

 

And he's proud... No seriously why aren't you banned forever ?

 

A patch every two weeks is a bit too demanding.

They only make money from people buying their DLC. If they focused mostly on bug fixes they'd lose more money than they'd gain.

I'm not saying they shouldn't fix bugs, they should if possible, but expecting fortnightly bug fixes is unrealistic.

 

I think the biggest outrage for me personally is that they require this intrusive DRM but release the game without it for a Game Pass trial. I'm guessing that is because they would have had to pay per install, but instead they release it without protection for that weekend and the pirates jump all over it. So they require this DRM for paid customers, who are the ones actually paying for the DRM licence and then these same DTG goofballs turn around and release it without protection, throwing our money down the drain. Like what?

 

Woah chill out mr sir

 

See updated posted

 

I was going to say it's not a DTG game, but then looked at the developer.

Strange how it's needed for one game but not the other.

 

LOL imagine somebody actually wasting bandwidth to steal TSW4 If it was a freeware release it would still remain mostly niche and ignored given it's myriad of problems.

 

I can't believe you've given DTG all that money.
If you really must spend vast sums on old, overrated and damaged content then....here I am

 

I've bought quite a few things from Dovetail as well and this shouldn't be about people supporting Dovetail financially or not, but Dovetail remaining accountable for improving their product while keeping the cost of entry reasonable for anyone who wishes to try it.

 

You may very well be 100% correct, I figured I should put my $ where mouth this, I have said many times some would think I'm an ole crazy coot, for what I have spent on DTG TSW__ But at the same time I say ya can take it with ya, and I have fun with it, at first I thought sure why not make the video to show what I found, as well as give back to the community that also made my game better.

But I do amuse myself, and I have fun with my older Special needs daughter and my younger who is learning to edit in Davinci, any further video will be to give back to the community the best way I can if the Devs look all well and good, if not so be it. But it does come back to liking what is TSW and maybe wishful thinking of an ole gamer that things could get better. Well maybe

 

For me, it's called a hobby since there are no trains near me and I am rarely on a train. I didn't know germany and the uk had great train networks and awesome trains. I have 87 dlc in tsw and 89 in tsc (along with a bunch of 3rd party content). Majority of the bugs do not affect me since a lot of them pointed out by the community are very nitpicky or they don't break the game or I don't use it (ex: I don't use pzb so those bugs don't apply). Therefore, bugs don't affect me. Tsw is good enough for me. It gets the job done, is beginner friendly and gives enough variety without giving me any frustration.

 

I’m happy to see that fire burning in your stomach, having a passion to enjoy a game even with its embarrassing quirks that frustrates even the best of us. Still, like you I really enjoy my time with TSW. I’m looking forward to what the future holds for the franchise, especially community routes, third party routes and new countries/locations.

 

People keep saying this, but you are aware that people are more likely to be buying your DLCs if they know your quality is good and you go back fixing things, right?

Bugfixes are NOT free work. It is investment in reputation and consumer trust - both of which pays off in the long run.

Many people don't seem to grasp this concept here. Neither does DTG, sadly...

 

Oh, I'm well aware. But things shouldn't need fixing in the first place, and if they do, I'd work my best to fix them.

 

Exactly this. Most recent DLC I simply haven’t bothered with as it’s either bugged or has some other flaw.
NY to Trenton, well documented issues.
Edinburgh to Glasgow, amateur Rivet effort.
Maintalbahn, sub freeware quality.
Bernina Line, half a route.
A skin and scenario pack for the over used 66 on a route I don’t own (see above).

Then there’s still the numerous core issues, steam traction, better save game, atrocious lighting and sound which continue to go unaddressed. And in the meantime, DTG at a senior level maintain radio silence on just about everything. I’m really starting not to buy the yarn about extended breaks and my nasty suspicious nature is wondering what’s afoot they don’t want to or can’t tell us about. Massive Focus/PulluP reorganisation incoming perhaps, emphasis back on TSC?

 

That's just silly. I think - hope - you're being (slightly) sarcastic but, for something that is so worthless, you seem to spend an awful lot of time on these forums talking about it.

 

I have sympathy with this view. Piracy is not a victimless crime. Someone has to pay for it, which will start with the consumer and, if the price becomes too high, ultimately the company.

I have direct experience with using tools - my brain, in-house and third-party software, etc. - to protect an application from piracy (a large and very expensive desktop product) and, believe me, it's a vicious underworld where you literally go head-to-head with crackers who are desperate to beat you, boost their credibility with people who won't pay and make their own money along the way. It's easy for a famous video game develop to talk about 'their art' and how anti-piracy measures stifle their creativity (that's one of the arguments I used before I better understood the issues at play) but they wouldn't have made the money they did without people looking at the commercial elements of the products being released to the market, which is how the money is made. Now, I agree that some anti-piracy technologies can cause issues, which must be improved if it impacts paying customers, but to use that as an argument for not taking any anti-piracy measures at all is, at best, naive.

 

Piracy isn’t all bad. Due to piracy I am the new owner of several chests full of treasure, a giant tortoise and as many limes as I can eat, arrr.

 

Well, not really. If there are xx amount of bugs in an addon then, before or after said release, they would have to spend the *same* amount of time fixing them. It's no good trying to suggest that the community would find an awful lot more issues than DTG ever could because not only do they have a well drilled beta team in place now but it's already been confirmed from a very reputable member of the community that many, many bugs are found during this beta process but DTG choose to only address the priority ones and ride their luck with the rest.

So no, I completely disagree with what you're saying. Routes are released with known issues that could have (and should have) been addressed in the correct order.

 

Their income relies on a constant release of DLC. Focusing on bug fixes for older content, even that which has only been around for 3 months, isn't economical when you consider those that buy no matter what.

Im not saying its acceptable, it's not, all content should be as bug free as possible, and they should actively fix them where possible, especially when they have a team of people dedicated to finding bugs.

 

That's true for the vast majority of, if not all, software but the suggestion that all known bugs could/should be fixed is rather naive. It's a balancing act which, admittedly, companies often don't get right. But of course, if they missed a deadline, to spend more time fixing bugs, someone (on here) would complain that they're useless for not meeting deadlines!

 

On the flip side, people read reviews. If the reviews are all negative pointing out bugs that have been around since previous versions, less people are gonna buy it. If DTG took the time to iron out all the bugs before releasing their products then they wouldnt need to worry about profit nor loss as much. No matter what DTG says i firmly believe that the testers either ignore the bugs thus not reporting them or report them and DTG ignores. Its not a good practice

 

Reviews are a bunch of nonsense in my opinion anyway, there's always that one review that is either too positive or too negative. Rarely do you find one that is genuine.

 

Unfortunately thats the nature of TSW DLC its either really good or really bad

 

There is a goldilocks zone. Only problem is its impossible to find.

 

The ammount of blatant bugs that are ignored in TSW is actually insane. Antelope Valley still has loads of buildings floating in the LA area, it's literally one afternoon of one map designer to fix it. The buildings just need dragging downwards to meet the ground for example.
DTG just rush products out long before they are ready. TSW4 comes out missing two of it's features (formation editor and new suspension system) here we are four months later and they still aren't in. If the product isn't ready for release, do not release it.

 

To be fair - this has always been an issue with DTG. In TSW, as it has less content and basically everyone's playing the same routes, it just becomes more apparent.

For example, I just took a ride on the ECML KingsX-Pboro in TSC, using a DLC I had never played before but that was in my library for a long time. The LNER HST.

The amount of bugs with this one is just crazy for such a tiny single-engine DLC.

While having a decent cab interior model (better and more detailed than TSW MML's HST), the rest is not so nice.

1. Only four power notches - goes from Idle to N2. Seriously?!? (Open blueprint, add another notch, adjust percentages from 0.25 to 0.2 steps, done.)
2. Coupler slack - they stretch out creating a huge space between the cars and leading to bunch-ups when braking/accelerating
3. Light+Lens flares so huge, you see that pixelated alpha mask covering a third of your screen
4. FPS consuming harsh shadow casting cab-lights.
5. Wrong engine sounds

As TSC is easily accessible for modding, it took me 20 minutes to fix all of these issues and I can enjoy the run now. DTG never bothered, so that DLC is up there on Steam with deserved "Mostly Negative" reviews. Sad for the 3D modeller, who did a good job on this one.

They never bothered to address this, as it has never been their business model.

There is no reason to expect anything to change, and the GWE wipers are only one proof of that, though a special one as they were working once and broken later, refunding impossible.

So generally don't waste your energy. It takes a huge storm to change something, and MML probably was the only example where the massive uproar did make a change eventually, although it took a long time and the help of modders.

 

Knowing the form wouldn’t surprise me if tsw5 out later this year

 

I purchased TSW4 for the suspension feature we are pushing February and the winter core part 2 update still isnt here

 

Wouldn't be surprised if it didn't come.

 

If they are planning a TSW5 then I predict it will just come with it

 

Some kind of shake-up at DTG is needed. Unless someone with imagination and outside the box thinking seizes the reins, I think we're destined to see more of the same Glossop-Goblin paradigm in 2024. And for the US either yet another segment of the NEC lacking a freight component or another Western freight route with the same lack of scenic care we got in Cajon Pass. Let's hope it's not another embarrassing NYT disaster. And DTG cannot yet count on 3rd parties like JT to rescue the game.

The current team seems incapable of dealing with the myriad of core problems as well as the uncountable route- specific issues that dominate the forum.

I too have had to eschew the most recent dlc because of the lack of quality or creativity. $40 suddenly seems like too much money for these simple, buggy, offerings. I fear my Steam wallet will likely veer away from TSW this year as more viable alternative sims become available.

At least I can always open up the old standbys like SPG, TVL or BPE for my train fix. Those long ago amortized, but quality routes and locos cost me nothing.

 

Pretty much how I feel.

Got some funds sitting in my Steam Wallet but assuming we even get a Festival Of Rail, some will be getting allocated on a couple of TSC items if on sale.

After playing the Prologue I've gone off that Siberian train sim and in any event it hasn't got a release date. However I'll almost certainly be grabbing the new Mudrunner Expeditions game when it launches in a few weeks and the first DLC for Simrail is hopefully not too far off. There's a bit of catching up to do with new States for ATS, too. Then the big cheese, assuming MS haven't cancelled it in their big Games Division shakeup, is the next iteration of MSFS.

About the only thing I even vaguely see myself buying for TSW is the Class 104 pack when it releases.

But this continued absence of the senior management, even though we know some of it is hyperbole, is not inspiring confidence in the future of the title. Are they really pinning the 2024 viabilty of TSW on a dull, short North London local route and a third party DMU pack?

 

I don’t know why DTG don’t recruit people in this forum to the beta team (The haters, non TSW owners, TSC enthusiasts). This game would be bug free in no time.

 

I highly doubt that. Nobody complained when DTG pulled West Cornwall for essential fixes and very few felt the need to have a right old moan when Sam explained why it wasn't feasible for all three Rush Hour routes to be released as a complete day one bundle and they were going to have to stagger their releases. In fact, the only real complaints aimed towards RH were that (1) despite the extra dev time all three routes were still fraught with problems and (2) the bundle was pulled early from stores, forcing the 'wait til things are fixed' section of the community into an awkward predicament.

I'd even go as far as to say that, given the post-launch reputation of DTG, the vast majority would probably feel much more comfortable with a delayed release than they would with a 'fix it later' policy that clearly isn't working.

 

It's weird, the roadmap from December was quite small even if they said that they didn't include the US route on purpose.
And also that german/austrian loco that was deleted and the clear lack of UK routes in the 6+ month is strange. Or the UK Route from Rivet Games that is nowhere to be seen even if it should come out in less than 2 and a half months... Or the Austrian route still not known. I think and hope that the Festival of Rail would answer a lot of my questions but yeah...

 

Looking 6 months ahead or even 4-6 months is quite far in the future. Things can and will change because that is how game development works.

 

Yup, that's how software development works in general. I was in a meeting yesterday which proves that (rolls eyes)!

 

The thread that won't die....

 

Are you saying enough is enough?