Yeah I should have proof read that (it's been a long day so far), people are saying that others want the game or routes for free, no it's just the core updates people want for free (as well as people are also pissed because of the lying and handling on situations over the previous titles). Personally when I used to play TSC I would happily buy the route/loco bundle each year after the core update came out because I'm not having to buy the base game over and over every year in order to get access to future content... See what I'm getting at? It's the update for core stuff people want so they aren't getting locked out of future content/updates. But if people are happy with paying for the same base game year in year out... Have at it, I'll wait until it's heavily discounted or see if I get it as a gift... Christmas isn't far away lol
My experience is different. I have spent a lot of time with games that have a lifespan of 12 months that are updated with content and bug fixes over that time then replaced with a new version a year later. Off the top of my head the FIFA and Football Manager titles do this very well and you could probably put the Call of Duty franchise into that bracket too. That's the way things are going. I have a lot of non-game software too that gets updates for a 12 month period then nothing unless you pay to renew the support licence for a further 12 months. With TSW they basically give away multiple DLC to make that transition much sweeter but if you don't like the dlc then tough luck. Everyone here knows the model by now. DTG are a business not a charity.
If you ever played TS Classic, you would know that DTG has always operated like this. Routes and trains have never been perfect and they only go back and look at real gamebraking or major bugs. Everything else was fixed in the editor by the community. These 20 page long emotional outburst about some minor bug from 5 years ago, seem to be limited to the TSW side of the forums.
They gave up ages ago because as soon as they fixed something, people on the forums found 10 new things to fix ... they could not keep up with all the complaints. Check the ATS stream, if you don´t believe me.
As it stands right now, and I stand to be corrected, my understanding is that we will not be able to edit existing content and fix bugs. I believe you will be able to build new things, but editing existing stuff is out.
No, it´s never been the greatest way to do things ... but on TS classic we are use to buying the latest offer from DTG and then waiting for the armstrong powerhouse enhancement pack to come out. It´s just the way train sim works: it´s a waste to time to get upset about it. I get it, I use to get upset myself.... at one point I thought: "ok, either just accept the way things are and enjoy my collection or I leave the game". There is not much else to do.
There's something I don't quite understand. Whichever edition of TSW4 you buy, you'll be getting one or more new routes at the regular or even lower price. So any new core features are basically free. If you don't care for any of the new routes, simply wait for a route you do like and then purchase a TSW4 bundle that includes that route. There are bound to be bundles and/or starter packs down the line to satisfy everybody. And past experience tells me you will not pay extra for any new core features.
IIRC when that was done with BCC last year they then charged for the core, so BCC with TSW3 was more expensive than BCC on it’s own. There is no guarantee they will replicate this at all with TSW4.
No they haven't. I do have TS classic, and have enjoyed it for a long long time. I bought it once, and it's still supported. In fact, it suffers from the opposite problem actually I feel like. TS Classic is at this point so old that keeping it alive is keeping resources from developing on TSW when I think TS20xx has reached its limit. Only things it had over TSW were free roam and an editor which is now gonna get to TSW. Core point though, my old old routes on TS Classic are ancient, and that's fine. Because I understand that old stuff becomes dated sooner or later. But the core program of TS Classic is still alive. Suppose you had to rebuy TS Classic with some other route you're not interested first in order to get that other new route you actually do want. I don't mind old TSW content getting older and harder to update, but the core game update is the problem here, but now you must buy the core game again.
I don’t want to piss directly on peoples breakfast cereal, but you were already supporting a model that is anti consumer back with TSW2. Any gaming product that has a “road map” of material coming is essentially early access. They are giving you 25% of the actual intended finished game up front, then they finish the other 75% of the game over time. I have no problem with this as we get to play the game way earlier than if they finished everything—and for less money btw—and lots of devs use different biz models to complete the game. I’m just glad it’s not free to play. I’d rather pay for real improvements. Seems to me like DTG were happy to move along from TSW3 as quickly as possible. Less than a year is for a reason. You gotta ask, why is this? I’d say it’s a cash grab but they are charging $40 and giving you updated routes and locos with it. Clearly work and lots of it went into this. So maybe it’s something else? My guess is they weren’t happy with the version and wanted to move on to a more robust version. If DTG wants to move on to a better version for their vision I’m going to follow suite. Why? Because I want the best version of this game too. Why would a fan not support this decision? All routes come with you, you can still play the old game, and the upgrade is almost half of what other games charge. Oh, and nobody is forcing you to buy anything. Enough is enough, sure, but when is enough not enough? When you want too much.
Only games I know that act like that are season based sportsgames like FIFA, Madden, NFL, etc. They get away with this because at least every year every league is different and people want to play with the newest squads of their teams, and with FIFA, the football world itself is transforming too, little by little. You don't buy an entire new FIFA every year for the totally new football experience it offers because the changes are minimal, but the series has and relies on a bunch of fanboys who'll eat it up without even a hint of critique. Other than for massive engine upgrades though, the train world is pretty static in comparison. Certainly, changes happen over time, but simulators aren't bound by current trends like sports games are and can easily create routes from the past, or even if they wanted to, something futuristic and fictional, so long as the engine allows it. I have mentioned it before, but in that sense, the way X-plane did it is a lot better because you can do whatever in 11, there's a lot of resources available, and for its flaws, it is a complete game that's actually without game breaking bugs. But X-plane 12 is truly a different game that's not comparable to 11, even if they're clearly related. 12 is actually a leap forward in a lot of ways, and the experience is genuinely different whereas the driving experience itself here is only marginally different at best. I hope you're able to understand what I mean.
I do believe you. As much as I love and enjoy TSW, for some years now I have the impression that sometimes they sometimes put too much on their plates (even if it is with good intentions, to offer the player a large variety of DLCs etc.). No DTG-bashing, but imagine TSW and its DLC were Sony/Polyphony or Activision or EA products...
Yeah imagine Focus selling DTG to Sony/Polyphony! Sounds good but I would mind having to wait 10 years before TSW5 arrives
Nobody is forcing you to buy the new game if you are not interested in the new content then don’t buy it. it’s very simple but don’t blame DTG for wanting to make money you big cry baby
To be fair, I do think 10 years is a bit long, but at the minimum until there's significant upgrades to software capabilities and the game is starting to get actually outdated. I wouldn't have minded TSW4 if it actually had bold new features to the core driving experience, significant overhauls to how you play the game. New modes. I know technically free roam is kind of a real mode, but frankly, it really isn't. It's just the mode we were still missing and waiting to be ported over from TS20xx. Not enough to justify yet another re-release.
To be honest Simrail is looking like an option even though I really prefer UK stuff. I already have the game. I'd quite like the possibility to be able to access some new features but unfortunately DTG are actually forcing me to buy DLC I don't want in order to be able to do that. As regards getting personal, I always find that reveals more about the speaker rather than the receiver. We're all a little more informed now..
Lol please noooo, don’t get me started on these guys… We’d have to grind the highest paying route endlessly so that we could compile enough credits to buy the trains we want. Polyphony are the micro transaction kings and they completely destroyed the GT series with that approach. Gameplay loop is garbage. They set the price of the cars so high and then nerf the hell out of earnings for most races, so you have to keep playing the same damn race over and over. And then the special cars are available only for a limited amount of time so they’re encouraging you to spend real money on credits… then unlock car, rinse, repeat. Game should’ve been free to play, it’s basically the War Thunder model but this is an AAA title lmao And we’re not even getting into how bad the racing is in that game. Rolling starts, you’re 20+ seconds back, so you absolutely must have a massively overpowered car to catch up. Makes for an incredibly boring and unrealistic races with little variation. Absolute dumpster fire, and I loved that series growing up. Hope DTG never go that route.
True enough. Personally, I can't quite get into SimRail I feel, even though I do have it, because I like the interface of TSW works better for me. Also, even though TSW definitely fails to live up to the "World" part in its name, it still has more varied content which I like, as well as systems I prefer over the Polish one. Though having TSW content as in-depth as SimRail would definitely be great. To me, they're still a bit unproven, but having actual competition that starts picking away a bit at DTG's monopoly on train sims would be nice. Just for DTG to feel the heat a bit and hopefully start improving in order to maintain their position as the main rail simulation developer.
if i dont buy it then the content i have will only stay broken since they wont support tsw3 with fixes to old bugs so what choice do i have
That is all accurate and I don't dispute it. But in terms of QA, releasing a "finished" and more or less "flawless" product and not doing more "bug fixes" than an old VW repair shop would be nice IMO.
I won't be buying this, partially because given how TSW3 is barely a year old and not entirely bug free but mostly because no further routes will be added for TSW3. This is a massive snub to all the players who have spent a not inconsiderable sum of money on DLC as far as im concerned, might have been more inclined if it was an all new game rather than a bit of spit & polish!!
i cant complete some services and a training module on DRA. if thats not broken then i dont know what their definition will be
But you would need to finish Sherman Hill five times before you can even afford one of those 700 locos or unlock a new route.
Even if we went by your logic, it is not irrelevant. For example, there are still huge updates for SFJ and OSD in the pipeline, both are supposed to also rework the timetable (OSD with a whole passenger layer). Both were supposed to be TSW2 updates. I don't know about you, but I really like to revisit routes that saw a huge update. Now another paywall. I could easily spend that kind of money, but some people can't. If you have an existing collection, but can't spend on new stuff, you still were about to see some new gameplay and updates.
As someone who definitely falls into the "can't" category on that one. Thank you for putting that into words.
A minor percentage of services out of over 10,000 service's in the game, to be painfully honest anybody who expected them all to work flawlessly is clearly delusional and just short of total insanity.......
Yes, I would expect to be able to use one of my favorite American trains to work fine in timetables. Yes. Crazy of me, I know.
when you charge high prices you expect to get the bare minimum of it working. some of these features have been broken since the start of tsw3
If you want a game that’s bug free, go play Minesweeper, I’m sure you’ll have tons of fun. It’s free AND bug-free, two hallmarks of a great game according to many on this forum.
they could make most (if not all) of the people happy on this thread if dovetail had a team to go back and fix bugs on old releases such as tsw2 and tsw3 rather than ditching support for the games and forcing people to buy a new game to have a chance at it being fixed. as well as giving the option to only buy tsw4 without having to buy it with a route in a bundle for a much more affordable price
I can understand bugs. They happen. That's fine. But I also expect that especially if the bug is severe enough, it will be patched sooner or later. Now I would require the purchase of completely new and unrelated content, just to have persistent bugs fixed eventually. Most games have bugs. When I play Flight Sim, there's this bug where when you start a flight, the terrain loads after your plane, and you fall through the ground and have to restart again. Or the ATC suddenly becomes silent (but operable), and you just use either just the textwindow for it, or you just switch to the in-built text-to-speech bot that's not as fancy, but still works perfectly well without bugs. They do not effectively lock me out of some of the content I paid for, and if they did, I would expect a fix as soon as they get to it, and not only for the next game.
Helpful!! look, I've spent a lot of money on TSW3 and DLC and little more than a year later for DTG to completely drop any new routes for TSW3 is a pisstake in my opinion, I'm broady supportive of DTG and TSW3 often calling out the haters but that's a step too far for me tbh.
Exactly the transfer of labour to unpaid community members they hope to accomplish with the public release of the TSW editor.
While $50 USD is a good deal for 3 routes (or $70 for the deluxe version), the base game (core) is not the same as the three routes. They are completely separate things that are bundled together. For me, as of right now, none of the new routes or locos interest me in a way that makes me want to buy them. I'm not gonna spend that kind of money to buy stuff I won't really play. I have student loan payments that are about to startup so while the price of a DLC may not be much to some, that's a good chunk of money that I have to think carefully about. So why not wait until another route interests me and then pick up TSW4? Simple - I have not bought a single DLC since TSW3 released because nothing interested me. The closest was maybe Trenton, but I refuse to pay DTG more than maybe half its price for that unfinished nonsense that took a 30 page forum thread for them to decide to fix their mess up. There may not be a route in the next year that interests me, so I'm stuck on TSW3 with no hope of anything getting fixed because it's been abandoned. This is why myself and others are advocating for a free or (significantly) reduced price just core version/update of TSW4. Not because we think things should be free, but because it inhibits our ability to get fixes and other improvements to stuff we already own. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this matter, but its not a black and white, you're entitled and you're blind, argument. It goes much deeper than that. And this is compounded by the fact that DTG has a long history of not living up to its promises, whether you want to admit that or not. For some of us, it's not just about loving trains and simulators. Its simply about where is the right place to put our spending money.
Oh, you can bet this focus on improvements to the CC is aimed at making it so that content created by PC users with the editor becomes available on console, neatly allowing DTG to focus on stuff that makes more money than fixing broken content does.
An editor should not be an excuse for DTG to not fix bugs in previous DLC. I frankly find it ridiculous that players have to tweak in game files just to inprove their experience. The editor can't even come to console and there is no guarantee that DTG will even be able to create an option have pc created content on the editor to be shared on console
Personally I think the initial TSW2 apology was seemingly genuine, but either it was good acting or afterwards they realised they could just keep on doing it. I'm not sure what you mean by this, particularly with the Sony comment. And the award for 'immature comment of the year' goes to... I'm not interested in the new game and won't be buying it. However, a huge amount of players here and elsewhere are not very pleased to have to pay for a minor core update, and to get updates to the content they already own - especially when Train Simulator has been run on the free yearly upgrade model since 2010. It's unrelated to the topic, but your comments couldn't be further than the truth. Every single GT game has involved grinding, and in past games it was much more difficult than it is in GT7 - constantly replaying the Costa di Amalfi rally in GT4 to sell the RSC Rally Raid car for 267,000Cr is far more annoying than doing one short endurance race in GT7 and being given slightly less than a million. You can make an easy 1.6 million in an hour, if you work for it those 'limited edition cars' are very easy to acquire. I own close to three quarters of the car list already and I haven't paid for any of the cash packs. In fact, in all of the attempts at microtransactions in Gran Turismo games, none of them have been needed for any player willing to actually play the game. Plus the cars in the used and legend car dealerships are not limited by time, it's effectively the same used car system used since the very first game, albeit synchronised to a server so it's the same for everybody. In past games with a used car dealership the only way you'd make it rotate faster is by forcing it to by passing days quickly by exploiting the loading system. For players who play the game normally, the time taken for a car you want to come up is not very different between past games and GT7. Go on GTPlanet and find old posts about people trying to find the Formula Gran Turismo before the Online Collector's Dealership was added and you'll see what I mean. But again, how this is relevant to Train Sim World I don't know.
Couple of thoughts: DTG-Chris said in another thread that they tried a standalone upgrade for TSW3 and it didn't work out. What people say they want (or what people claim the majority/everybody wants) and what they actually want are not always the same. Link: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/why-is-their-no-upgrade-version-of-tsw4.72592/#post-698632 Nobody needs to buy TSW4 in anticipation of anything. If none of the routes offered interest you, wait on it. If a route releases that you do want then you can buy one of the cheap single-route packages, maybe on sale even. Same with bugfixes to old routes; you only need to watch the patch notes and consider buying TSW4 if the fix(es) you're waiting for are actually released. DTG tries to guess what will be worth it to you. You tell them what's actually worth it to you with your wallet. That's the market in action.
Actually yes, I am being forced to buy it, if you are on game pass this 'stick to old game' doesn't apply and to continue playing the routes I've spent my money on, I have to keep feeding into DTG's money trap? Why should people one platform be tarted differently to others and then they have the audacity to cease the availability on Xbox Game Pass on the 1st sept without adequate warning?
Oh, it will be. They already rely on the community all the time. Bugs and model issues? Mods will fix it. Sounds? Mods will fix it. Can't be bothered to properly set up the lights on a route? Don't worry, mods will fix it.
That explainiation was already countered by others in that same thread. It literally was just a paid patch. The explanation in of itself sums up as a mere communication failure by DTG. All DTG could've have done is follow the tsc model by saying that the core update will be free for existing players, and if you want the new tsw routes, you will have to by them separately as said by players who quoted that post. It’s a simple thing to do and has worked in TSC without a problem
What I mean is that I am not aware of other game publishers which have such a history of issues. My example with Sony (Gran Turismo) was just due to the fact that there is a complex product with real physics which you can even customize and a large number of assets (routes, cars). I fully appreciate the complexity of SimuGraph and the wish to provide lots of options with TSW, also compared to TSC. At the same time, tehere are flaws which cannot occur. If I download a new DLC and notice 2 or 3 things which are not OK within 10 minutes of gameplay, I am questioning who checked that DLC beforehand. Just a few examples of things that are visible at first glance, while playing casually, are the "holy apparitions" in tunnels or locos turned aroung 180 degrees or the flawed external view, e.g. on the Class 66 (90 degrees away from the loco). Would that happen in GT or Call of Duty or other major releases? And now we have a situation where DTG is full steam ahead with TSW4, so those things will probably stay forever.
