Don't really agree. I'm probably that average Joe but I was not interested in steam anyway. For steam you really need to have more passion for trains than the average Joe has. The 101 does interest me. I know I can fly a Jumbo in flight simulator so I probably will be able to get this thing going as well On an other note: A manual? What is the training centre for then? No extensive course there?
There may well be more extensive training in the centre for this, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t get a manual. If I run into an issue with the loco, I’m not about to jump out of my service & head on over to the TC for an entire lesson.
Wouldn't they have put that in marketing terms? Sounded like the manual was sold on how to get the train moving
...if a good 3D model already exists, i.e. dimensions, proportions, important details and assemblies all match the original, then that can be used as a starting point to improve or tune it with other details (you would say with a car). You don't have to start from scratch again. Nevertheless, the most effort here certainly lies in the interior and the expert functionality. The new control car will certainly be a main argument for the new DLC, as many want to expand their collection and some just want the perfect simulation. Why not improve a product that has been around for several years? Of course, players who have the HRR version could be rewarded with a loyalty discount, but that's still a while away and the job of the marketing department.
Just realised something... If the player has to put in data in the computerscreens, I hope that something can be found to make it a lot less figety for console players than let's say the operation of the screen in the 385. Selecting the right buttons on that screen with a controller is not what you would call easy...
About the pricing - let's see what TSC can hint here: 1. The Railjet by RWA: Costs around 40 Euros. 2. The IC Cab car by vR: Around 25 Euros. 3. BR 143 by vR: A 143, n-Wagen, cab car for 25 euros. 4. MK 1 coaches by AP: Nearly 21 Euros, just for coaches without any loco. I could go on for hours. Or in short: I won't be surprised if TSGs 101 Expert (with 2 different 101-versions, a cab car, and probably two types of passenger coaches) would cost more than 30 Euros. It's not like something unimaginable in the train simulation market. And as pointed out before: it will be a rather niche DLC, which fewer people will buy. That's probably part of the reason why the price will be higher than the usual pricing. And also of course because people worked for months on that DLC.
that does look pretty reasonable. I take back my previous idea of more than 25 is too much. although it gets expensive. this dlc is 2 101 versions and a cab car. so 30 to 35 sounds more reasonable. TSG makes quality products so I expect something good about this and unlike other announcements or releases I have no doubt this will be a day one purchase.
Third-party devs always price stuff higher than DTG, and some of those are only base TSW levels of detail. I highly doubt it'll be above 30 Euros.
It's probably forlorn, but I hope we see some of the other coach types too. Definitely the ARKimmbz, but also (in order of priority): Apmmz Bvmmsz Bpmmbz Bpmmdz WRmz Bimmdzf Bimz Bimdz Bwmz Also, as a console player, I sometimes find the screens hard to use, to get precision on the buttons. Maybe with more screens there should be an option to make the selected screen fill the, er, screen?
This is the first time this has happened in TSW, but if you look at the flight sim world where there are many third party devs this is common. If you go to MS Flight Simulator and want an Airbus 320, there are many different ones produced by many different developers (there's even one that comes with the game from MS). Varying quality, some barely accurate and missing key systems, others study level and detailed with almost everything. You're free to buy all of them or none of them. I don't have a fundamental problem with it, if a developer thinks there is a market for it let them build whatever they want and the customer can choose whether its worth the money. If anyone is going to do this right it would be TSG. Especially for the 101 which is great but has a very convoluted purchasing method if you don't already have it (you need to buy an old route AND the loco to actually be able to use it).
The 101 is one of my favorite locomotives, if not the most favorite in existence, so a study level one is a day one purchase for me. The deeper the simulation, the better. Just hope it works with more than just the IC coaches and is compatible with PZB/LZB on the existing routes. Also, really hope for some EuroCity and overnight layers. Driving overnight trains is the best meditation for me.
They said on the stream that all the levers and buttons are operational and it’s been vetted by an actual driver. That sets my expectations super high and if we don’t get Ebula I will be extremely disappointed. You can’t promise total immersion and leave that piece out.
I would also say it will be over 30€ easily, maybe even above 40€ and maybe even scratching on the 50€. Because consider this: As stated in the roadmap article this will be not a usual loco DLC to compare it with. And if they really decide to go over the tedious and painful hassle of incorporating an EBuLa system just for this/these trains, making it replacable for all 101 services so far layered into route DLCs, then it will reflect of course in its price tag. We all should know that DTG/TSG wouldn't do such things without getting a proper payback.
From what I've read here, you actually don't need to buy the route to use the 101. Can someone confirm if I'm remembering right?
DTG say the price will be a little bit expensive but not 30 € but on the roadmap article dtg say more but not so expensive i think 25€
Yes and no. The 101 Journey and scenarios are for Rhein-Ruhr, but there are timetable layers for at least three other routes and you can spawn it anywhere.
So, if you don't have/aren't interested in getting Rhein Ruhr (like me), you aren't missing anything other than what comes for that route? I think the layers working on other routes is the most important thing, IMO. Then again, if one doesn't own the 101 yet (again, like me), it will probably be better to wait and see how the "EXP 101" turns out at this point.
BlaringHorn The only thing you'd miss out on would be the tutorial/introduction, but it's a DB locomotive that is (at least in it's TSW depiction) operated just like most of them. But I agree that you're better off waiting for the Expert version.
Exactly. Any more than £25 or 25 Euros and they will be losing sales. Charge something totally ridiculous like £40 or £50 and they will be down to a handful of sales IMHO. This is not FS where you can buy a PMDG or Level D aircraft and fly it anywhere in the world. It’s also still a rework of a loco most of us have already driven extensively already.
In comparison to other DTG product's it would be too high, I agree to that. However, I think there is still enough audience which would be willing to pay much (maybe even more) for a highly detailed loco. And in comparison to the prices for a highly detailed miniature railway loco, it would still be a lot less. Not that I would support or defend this business thinking, but just saying that it all depends on the features and price tag in relation to the features, we definitely still know too less about to really make good assumptions now. If it's just a loco DLC with a bit of extra? 40 to 50 Euro would be never ever worth it, I agree. But if TSG really could replicate the 101 and IC cab cab pretty close to reality including a fully functional EBuLa, which you could use anywhere the 101 layers into, then I guess an elevated price tag like that could be indeed justified. But as I said at the moment we're debating about speculations. Let's see what TSG brings us and then we compare the price DTG attached to and what we get for it again. Also we talk about the list price. Not the one for get it on a future sale.
Well everyone is going to have individual red lines when it comes to price, expert content or otherwise. That in itself varies, in particular whether an all new item, or as in this case an existing asset which has been reworked. The actual extent of extra features and what they will provide when it comes down to moving the power and brake handles back and forth, compared to the existing model. So yes the FS analogy may not be entirely relevant, but the same process probably goes through all but the most fanatical users’ minds. Do I pay the mind whopping £60 for the PMDG model, or make do with a lesser version at half the price from another developer. Or joina VA annd grab their quality freeware models. And yes, I did actually buy both the MD11 and 747 “Queen Of The Skies” for FSX. £100 worth of software which I barely used, as it turned out! Expensive lesson learned.
I noticed nobody has picked up on this line Extensive Fault Simulation if enabled. Any speculations what that could entail?
I agree with Vern here, it’s pretty clear that from most of TSW’s Marketing, content & design philosophy, that the bulk of the userbase is not going to be interested in a ‘Pro’ range. There will be a handful that are truly interested in it, some that only want it for the cabcar, and or layers this will provide. There are then the others that will buy it because they buy all DLC’s. If this pack exceeds the cost of the average route, I reckon they’d lose substantially more money than if they priced it £5 lower than one. On the subject of that, I do wonder how this pack will be affected by layering on future routes, DTG won’t be making the lions share on this pack but ultimately they’ll be the ones responsible for layering it in on their releases. Furthermore, there will be conflict between the original 101 & the Pro version with its entirely different consist, will be interesting to see how that develops. Personally I would no longer want to see the less realistic 101 being used on my routes.
I have certainly seen it and speculated for myself so far I am assuming we will see faults happening on the traction motors and brakes. These can get quite interesting when it comes to calculating new BrH and their like. I was, however, wondering why it was specifically called "extensive". Maybe we will also need to manual release the Federspeicherbremse or ZWS is faulty (especially as the cab car is involved in this pack as well). Lots of other stuff could happen as well I would be very happy if you can elaborate on this point a bit further?!
I think only Maik can tell what exactly will consist of this "extensive fault simulation". But as stujoy, I expect the result to be I would also like to raise the question, to which degree he was able to master and test the controls himself, not being actually an 101 or IC cab car driver.
I'd say some PZB and LZB Störung as well. maybe a broken toilet störung in the störung screen would be a fun easter egg. or function
In my case, I will not pay more than the price of a reduced price route, e.g. Maintalbahn or suffragette line. My reasoning is that I doubt that to build an expert product, no matter how good it is, I need to invest more man hours than to build a complete new route and a new train. Even less so if we are talking about the BR 101, which was already a locomotive that we had previously, so a lot of work was already done, let alone had to start from scratch.
Well, I suspect that it was, in fact, cwf_green who has set the failure system up for this product line
Just to clarify, the product is being developed by TSG. TSG is not only Maik For example Niddertalbahn was mostly me and Ed Fisk with Maik doing the loco. In this case most of the setup for the train is being done by cwf_green who is also really talented. He will know best
Frankly I really wish we saw the DB BR 232, or perhaps even the 218 or 420 being used to debut this expert range. Would be a much better gauge having a brand new locomotive at this expert quality. As opposed to one that already exists, thus meaning a certain potion won't buy it even if they would've initially. Plus brings with it complications as to how they'll support both versions going forward. This is the problem with raising the price, really you can't actually raise it that much higher. Loco DLC around $30's I don't think is gonna do well, especially one that already has a non-expert range version. You might get away with $25, but then the Acela sells for $23, so you're really only charging a additional $2 over what a standard range locomotive could already be priced at. I'd seriously question if that increased systems modeling is gonna be worth it on the developer end when they could make a much lower end product that's gonna be at 90% of what you'd sell it for anyways.
And as he was also responsible for setting up the Vectron (not under the TSG umbrella) I have full trust that this product will be outstanding as well!
The problem is people don't know this very well (including me). Often Maik is only stated in the forum. I heard that you worked on Niddertalbahn too but never found the official statement about it. Didn't know that even more community members are on board of TSG to be honest. But to come back to topic: Probably a little challenging nontheless! BTW: Did you found the reason why the Niddertalbahn Formsignals keep on crashing the public Editor?
My guess on faults: - screens not working properly - faults involve traction cut out / rescueing - Nbü action (over enthusiastic passengers using the emergeny brake) - pneumatic faults - door operation faults - crewe change faults ( brake key left active at the rear) - freezing brakes in winter? Depends on things if pneumatic boards inside the engine room are modeled. To be honest that would be a tough challenge even for an expert line dlc.
This is just another symptom of TSW’s pricing & QC issue. You get static pricing which can work in your favour with things like ECML & IOW2022, but then it doesn’t work so well with things such as Maintalbahn & HRR. The good quality, high gameplay value products cost the same as the bug ridden poor value content. There’s really not a lot of room for manoeuvre when there are basically only 2 set costs regardless of content. For locos the Acela has been the only outlier at £14.99, being about £3 more than other locos (I’m not sure what the Vectron & FS are priced at as I got those with TSW4 anyway). Third parties are obviously going to have their own pricing in mind but they’re ultimately going to have to compete with the static pricing DTG have in place. £20 for a good loco set I’d be more than happy with, £25 it would have to be really good. At £30 you’re really pushing your luck for a TSW asset. Especially an asset which most people only really wanted the cab car for anyway, otherwise they already own it. The 101 as it is doesn’t have enough to do with it, that’s really the big issue I’m concerned about, I’m not about to part with the same money as I could buy an entire route for, when all I can do is 20 minute runs up & down the same 20-30mile corridor. KWG, Rosenheim & DRA are the better routes for an IC experience, but even those don’t really do it justice. Like I said earlier, TSG have shown they’re more than capable of giving us a great product, and after the 158, CWF is clearly very talented with getting into the details. Economically though this pack will be in a tough spot.
As it's not a Bombardier loco, it won't have any! Jokes aside, I'm looking forward to what you're cooking up here for us. Fault simulation sounds extremely interesting to me. It's not an area sims cover too much (either at all or at least not well).
I like the idea and probably will purchase this package. But watch the troubleshooting forum! It'll go ballistic only to find out what's a simulated fault and what's a real bug that needs fixing. Ordering coke and popcorn now ...
I am very happy that the locomotive will be in expert mode. It will take the simulation to a higher level. Another locomotive could be a Vectron. Definitely buying this DLC.
One thing I like on some freeware TSC addons is a working fuseboard. Some locos spawn with couple fuses off and if you don't check them, you may encounter small silly things like having one light off or speedometer without power. Depending on what equipment is accessible in the engine room, something similar could be there as well. In some locos I know, lot of systems are connected by pneumatic valves, and it is your responsibility to ensure everything is open and connected. Opposite can lead to minor troubles like not being able to raise pantograph, or to major troubles like accidentally having parts of safety systems cut off.
Fault simulation is alr teased on the wip screenshots if you look where you have to look :3 Funny to have made that loco screamin at me in tsw too now. It was and is my favourite loco to drive irl and i love to preserve all of its wonkyness, heh.
So everybody is talking about how it'll replace or layer in the old 101's timetables and stuff. What I read quite often is, that people are worried it will not happen because it comes with a cabcar now and it's not easy to substitute it like that. My question: Wouldn't it be possible to sub in the new 101 without a cabcar as a formation with just the coaches or a sandwich with another 101 just like the current 101 is? that way you'd 1:1 replace the consist with the same amount of locos and cars. It'd still be a pity as I'd also love to enjoy the cabcar on the current routes that have 101 services, but I fear if you have the new one you would not want to drive the old one again. So maybe this could be a compromise, if its not possible to completely replace the formations with cabcar altogether.
This looks awesome. Looking forward to being overwhelmed and happy to get the thing started at all Hope I’ll be able to handle it!
Can you elaborate on this ? Im absolutely no expert so im just not even trying to spot it but im curious what it is. Also, you are an IRL driver assigned on Br 101 ?
Problem is, that the new cab car is going to have expert controls, so if you use it in a consist with the original "non-expert" BR101, how is that going to work? Normal controls in one direction with the BR101, then you swap ends and drive the service back with expert controls in the cab car? Casual gamers are going to want a cab car with "easy mode" controls.
