Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by nielsmallant100, Jun 10, 2020.
I was just astonished. Plus I think it is completely over the top!
Stay on topic please.
It's not just TSW that are carrying out this practice of moving onto yet another game before fixing documented bugs and not providing content that was expected... there are gaming genres out there operate like that and have done for years.
If you think that DTG, TSW are being heavily scrutinised by the fan base, just look at the flight sim and racing sim forums for a master class for putting pressure on developers.
Sadly, this way of operating, and let's face it they are a business and need to make a profit, will continue because it works... Developers will continue in this way until people decide to stop buying.
Thousands of people however will follow along like the sheep we are and keep shelling out and the process will continue.
Will I buy into TSW2?... I'm not sure to be honest. I will wait for a bit to see exactly how my 'preserved content' can be used in the new game before I decide whether it is worth it or not.
I have no interest whatsoever in the content that is being launched with TSW2... my bag is only for the UK lines and trains (not the underground)... If they produce more UK stuff I will probably take the plunge (BAAAAH! BAAAH! sheep like noises) lol!
Except it does, because the editor always has been one of the biggest selling point for any train simulators. Look at all the big names on the market. Train Simulator had a route editor since the Rail Simulator days, I believe even MSTS had one, Trainz especially sucks at driving simulation but people love it because of the editor, Diesel Railcar Simulator also added one because they know it's important in a train game.
A train simulator without user content will not sell well, because people very often want to see trains from their own region. If there is no content for their country, and neither the chance to make their own, then they will not bother buying the simulator. I think it's safe to say that the majority of train fans in my country are not buying TSW because they're stuck playing Trainz and TS and such because those actually allow you to create content and build routes.
TSW is an amazing game nonetheless with great potentail, but don't you think there is something wrong when this new, shiny, great simulator with endless potential is overtaken in player numbers by a basically 13 year old simulator?
So long story short, yes, the lack of content editor does actually make TSW less of a complete product. It doesn't make it neccessarily a bad product, but it is definiely a lesser one, even if you personally doesn't care about an editor.
Out of interest, where are you seeing these numbers....?
Look at Steam player numbers and you'll see Train Simulator has more active/avarage players than TSW.
Steam doesn't take account of the vast number of players on PS4 or XBox.
Also, TS1 has been on Steam for ten years more than TSW.
Not necessarily true. Content is the driver and once content is established, quality of content
It's why AP get plaudits even if they're more gung ho than DTG about taking content off the market to make the next buck on their shiny new thing
Does that matter though? We could argue that if TS1 was on consoles it would also have even more players. Because TS1 is a PC only game it's fair to compare it with the TSW PC player numbers only.
Well isn't that exactly what I was saying? Their more than ten year old simulator is beating their brand new one. That was my whole point.
But if you don't believe me then look at any train sim groups or forums. Barely anyone posts TSW, everyone is playing TS or Trainz, etc.
The funniest thing of all is that almost the announcement of the class 20 for TSW was in the same time period as the announcement of TSW2. Was it a coincidence? Or a strategy so that the announcement of TSW2 was not so shocking for consumers? it's like they wanted to tell us:
"We are going to stop creating content and support for TSW, but hey! don't worry!, we got you a new locomotive for the obsolete game! By the way, don't forget to buy the revolutionary new TSW2 train game!"
I believe you. I completely expect there to be more players of TS1 than TSW on Steam. Apart from anything else, TS1 is the far superior game (as a simulator). But if you take my example, I use TS1 on PC, and TSW on PS4 Pro. As a user of TSW (actually both on PC and PS4), I should be counted in your analysis, as TSW is explicitly designed to be a cross-platform title.
TS1, as listed on Steam in its current form, has had seven years to accumulate players. Players that are deeply invested in the game. I would not expect such players to abandon the TS1 title, not anytime soon. TS1 also has over x500 DLCs and x24,000 Workshop scenarios associated with it - so compared to TSW, it has a very much wider current content base. Many many players are also "playing" TS1 by using the Editor.
It all boils down to this: TSW is not TS1.
In the context of this thread, you are right - maybe some people bought TSW thinking/hoping it might become TS1+ .... but have now understood that this is not the case..... so some will not now give TSW (or TSW2) a second look, and have gone back to TS1. I suspect that very many never tried TSW at all. I also suspect that very many picked up TSW two or three years ago and immediately dropped it.
BTW - I agree with nearly everything that you have said. I just believe that, in reality, on PC, that TSW numbers never ever caught up with TS1 numbers - it is surely wrong to say that TSW has been "overtaken" - unless you have a graph to show that....? And I suspect that it would also be wrong to give the impression that a significant change in loyalty to TSW has only just occurred now..... because of a mass hallucination about it being advertised and marketed as including an Editor, that has only just now been revealed to be untrue.
Welcome aboard DTG Protagonist! I didn’t know that you were the community coordinator now. I thought it was still that previous asshole. Glad to see they got rid of him and that kid before that. I just watched your stream you had with Matt and i gotta be honest i I’m sorry for what i said in the above statement (ill edit it in a minute). I have not been on for a while until i seen the TSW garbage on the main page when I checked back. I so far have a more favorable opinion of you after watching that stream. So i will keep tabs on this community and overall be a more active account. I still do not like the fanboys who some have said some pretty tasteless things about me.
That's no excuse for you to say some pretty tasteless things about them, now is it?
I'll defend everyone's right to voice their opinion equally, but that does not extend to name calling, so pack it in.
[removed by Protagonist - off topic]
Regardless of the console numbers,
Well, it's always good to have this sort of insight, and explore it. Insight is always better than incite.
Yep - this is precisely the sort of graph that I would expect to see. TS1 has always logged more hours than TSW. The January/July cycle is potentially interesting. I also note that the number of TSW players on PC is trending upwards in the last 12 months.
It's also very interesting to see how quickly those TSW spikes drop off (whenever a DLC is launched for TSW......or maybe they are times of deep discount sales......?). Presumably people buy TSW DLC, play it for a few days, then suddenly drop it extremely quickly. I suspect that this happens on PS4 as well - the retention rates for the DLCs are truly shocking (you can infer this by analysing the trophy data).
The SteamDB graph is clearly showing that the replayability of TSW is really poor. This probably also means that customers are being churned through... and that could end at any time (the customers could dry up.....)...... They need to address this.... they really should look at the UI, look at the manuals and documentation, look at the non-existent difficulty/progression - and do something to encourage people to use the game for more than ten minutes.
Well actually supporting their product with updates would definitely help, lol. I wonder why people don't play when content is seriously broken even years after release, like NEC. The LIRR M3 also didn't get a bugfix yet even though it just released like a month ago, I wonder if it'll get one at all. The Class 20 also seems to have some issues, like the weird techno boogie it did in the first 10 mintues of the release stream. If the Class 20 gets a post-release bugfix but the M3 doesn't, then I'm gonna be really disappointed.
And again, an editor. I still hold the opinion that an editor is one of the biggest selling point for train simulators, so unless TSW gets one, many people will avoid it.
Great to see you're still around Luke it appears some things never seem to change. There always seems to a couple a bad apples still hanging around. Hoping that the Protagonist hands him what he deserves this time in hopes that he gets the message.
I've been going through the numbers from the data provided in SteamDB, which is only for the PC and I found it quite surprising how poorly followed TSW is on the PC.
The data for TS1 goes back to 15/06/2019 (4,020 days to 17/06/20) and during that time it has been played over 6.27 million times with the highest daily number of players is 3,821, the lowest daily number of players is 53 and the average number of daily players is 1,693.
The data for TSW goes back to 01/02/2017 (1,232 days to 17/06/20) and during that time it has been played over 431 thousand times with the highest daily number of players is 1,933, the lowest daily number of players is 2 and the average number of daily players is only 385.
Even if you extrapolated the TSW data out to 4,020 days the same as TS1, it would still only amount to a total of 1.4 million plays.
As far as console data is concerned the only sources I could find were Gamstat.com:
According to Gamstat.com from the 23/07/2018 there have been 170 thousand players of TSW for the Playstation, the highest daily number of players is 2100, the lowest daily number of players is 0 and the average number of daily players is only 248.
Again, according to Gamstat.com there have been 760 thousand players on the Xbox but there's no dates or other data available.
It's pretty clear that the consoles account for about twice the number of PC players of TSW, so it's quite evident why DTG want to keep the console users happy.
But it's also pretty clear that even after 11 years, TS1 is still on average played by twice as many people a day than TSW.
I think it goes to show how being able to share works and that looks aren't everything!
I suspect that the Gamstat figures for PS4 are well off the mark, which is odd, because I thought they had a fairly accurate hypothecation system (maybe I am thinking of another stats tool....).... Anyway - broadly speaking.... the number of PS4 users should normally be about double the number of XBox players (as a general rule of thumb), and not the other way around..... I might have a look and see if I can get a detailed handle on it. If I am right (and now I am not so sure...), then it just adds to your argument - the number of console users far exceeds the number of PC users, for TSW.
Maybe the XBox figures are misleadingly high, as TSW was provided for free on XBox under Game Pass.....?
Either way - yes of course - TSW was designed to be cross-platform from the outset - you can get this from the filings in Companies House, and the console sales are critical..... It's a shame that they don't make TSW far slicker to match the expectations of that market.
NB: TS1 retains high numbers of players because it has been stable over a decade, and because of the investment made by the players over a long time (sometimes £thousands).
Still quite impressed that TS1 is still holding it's own. Even if you add console to PC numbers for TSW, TS1 is still more than twice as popular as TSW.
I agree i might be going against what i said earlier but TSW has potential its just the company that owns it are not doing it justice. Ts1 is wayyyyy better than TSW other than Graphics. TSW’s graphics aren’t the greatest in my opinion because if you look close enough especially the back wall in the cab in the 43 in GWE it is supposed to look dirty but it looks like a dirt hill in Minecraft with all the pixel edges. Looks are nothing compared to community content i mean, just think about it. FS19 would not be so successful if it didn’t offer mods to all players regardless of system. This is what DTG needs. An ingame “mod”hub that you can download engines, routes, cars etc. for free. If they did that and lowered their prices a bit, and some other crap i bet TSW would do better than ts1. The reason DTG wont release the editor is in the following scenario:
Consumer: I want a train simulator on console!
DTG: TSW for you 3 routes with less than 10 locos for 24.99]
Consumer: does it have an editor?
DTG: its on our roadmap for the future (or we are working on it)
Consumer: cool ill buy it
2 years later
Consumer: any update on editor?
DTG: 1st were working on it
Consumer: any other routes GWE NEC and rug seig nord ( i don't speak German) are getting old any new routes?
DTG: Here’s west Somerset 24.99 please (i think it was originally 24.99 i don’t remember)
Consumer: thats a bit high for just a few trains and a single route.
DTG: Suck it buy it or shove it up your ass we don't care its your only choice for a new route.
Consumer: fine ill buy it
DTG: knew you would thats why we wont change
Approximately 3 years of buying crap dlc later
DTG: TSW 2 on the way
Consumer: wot? You haven’t even finished all the promises for TSW yet.
DTG: we do not care suck it!
Consumer: what about the editor?
DTG: there is no editor and probably never will be
Consumer: what about multiplayer?
DTG: its on or future roadmap
Consumer: sigh, totally.
And this is where we are now let me know if i offended anyone i might consider changing it depending on who says it.
I think one of the factors of TS1 beings successful (apart from that it is a known quantity and has been on the market in various forms since 2008) is the sheer amount of stock and routes available which does beg the question as to what direction DTG take TSW in terms of how to encourage third party content, which is why I think these claims the DTG don't want to encourage third party content are absolute drivel as there can be no doubt the benefit from it, even when they aren't directly earning anything form it! I personally think that they have more ambition than they are letting on and will keep quiet until they can announce something, I may be wrong of couse. It is best to say no rather than leave them open to loads of abuse, which is what happened after the TSW launch. Playing devils advocate I think both DTG and the community leave themselves open to blame on that front.
As for TS1 it's main problems are that it seems unstable and you never know when it is going to crash, and, as a scenario creator, it's main problem is the unreliable and unpredictable despatcher which means that you are often working with one arm tied behind your back, especially as far as AI scripting is concerned, compared to Trainz and TSW (AI running round trains and shunting) is is restrictive in that regards. If they could fix that and make it more stable it would be excellent and I think possibly be a better long term prospect. Sure TSW looks better graphically but at its best TS1 is extremely good looking and can look photo realistic.
If they could future proof TS1 they could have both running successfully along side each other.
Other than issues with the workshop tab, I have never had TS1 crash, maybe I'm one of the lucky ones.
There are lots of reports of those who have. I get them sometimes, mainly in the scenario editor, occasionally when loading a scenario to run but not often.
Yes - it's impressively sustained (the total player count and the player activity) for TS1. It's because TS1 is a more developed title that stands out above everything else in the market, including TSW.
But the bottom line for TSW is new purchases. And this is where the console market is pushing TSW, far beyond PC (for TSW). But new purchases can be one-offs. You see the large peaks in August 2018 and 2019 in your graph for PC players of TSW, rapidly falling off as people rapidly give up on their three/four pack of routes.... Most of those people won't be buying further DLCs... There are mini-peaks throughout the year, but they also tail-off very rapidly....
Getting back to topic.... I don't think that these fall-offs with TSW are caused by people saying "Oh no, where is the Editor...?" It's people that buy the game, can't get through the UI, maybe try a broken tutorial.... possibly persist and play a service, then play a nearly identical service... and then give up.
Some people are fickle..... even if they have bought a game called "Train Simulator", many will drop it if the initial user experience is extremely poor.
Again, I only have in depth numbers for PC, but when you look at the TSW data and compare it with the dates the new DLC's were released there is a pronounced spike, not so much with locos, but still a spike nonetheless. However, those spikes last for only a couple of days in the majority of cases before user numbers have dropped back to pre-release levels.
If you look at TS1 though. It appeals to all demographics and as a result. A symbiotic relationship has developed. There are those that just want to drive trains. Those that want to drive in realistic scenarios, and there are those that will happily go all day long editing content only driving in order to test their work. Without these latter types, the realistic scenario crowd, lose interest.
... that will be me right there...
Was just rewatching the TSW Editor premiere...
Matt's enthusiasm at showing it off is a joy to behold! Quite a contrast to the Q&A session...
What the heck happened to that future instead of the one we got?
Things seemed on track for us to finally get the elusive editor, what confounded internal machinations killed it off?
Such a missed opportunity for the community. I don't see how that was a sensible business decision whichever way I try to look at it.
Can you imagine how broken it probably is? How buggy it probably is. How it's probably incredibly difficult and frustrating to use....? And how much support it would require...? Can you imagine them writing a manual for it? They are not able to output their own scenarios and routes without a swarm of bugs. It's a horror show that they probably did not have the stomach for, on top of everything else...
Sorry PP but pure conjecture mate (you used the word "probably" 4 times). It is no doubt harder to master than the TS editor but it would have been a beginning and a step on the right track (at least for advised users only and with limited support).
I can think of a number of things that would kill it off, from wanting a level platform on consoles and PC, licensing issues with Epic or just not being able to make it simple enough for some users, Matt's wish to only put out a complete editor etc etc
And we know how polished they make their output (just thinking of that class 20 manual... that was great)
Well the plan always way to release the editor only for PC, so I highly doubt that's the issue. I also doubt it would be a licencing things, as there is that Bus Simulator game that also runs UE4 and they had no problem releasing a route editor, and I'm pretty sure they should have known about such an issue already by then, if it was the case.
I think they either felt like it's not user friendly enough for a public release and decided to not bother with changing it, or are doing the same thing they did with Flight Sim World and decided to not allow independent third party content.
Well it's all just speculations, but whatever the reason is, I think it's a big mistake to not release an editor as currently it's a big con for the game, and is the reason many are not interested. Until there is a public editor, TSW will never reach the level of TS1, as there is simply no way that DTG alone could create so much content with such quality. And even though the partnership progam thingy is there, who is going to apply if they can't even get experience in making TSW content beforehand? So far Rivet Games is the only group that seems to work with them, but I wonder if any other TS1 creator group is going to get accepted, or bother at all to try.
It's probably pure conjecture. Okay..... it walks like conjecture, talks like conjecture and tastes like conjecture.... ;-)
I prefer "Moot". Either way.... a line, of sorts, has now been drawn under the issue. For now, there is no Editor. Whatever people thought in the past could happen in the future has not transpired, and we are Editor-less, minus an Editor, and TSW2 is coming soon.... Editor-not-included.
The moral of the story.... is that before you buy - from now on..... read the package to see what the contents are.
What if the package also lies?
*cough* "Authentic sounds from the real locomotives" *cough*
*cough* "Realistic timetable and challenging scenarios" *cough*
'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This Editor is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im into the game 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-EDITOR!!
The original plan was to release on PC, but plans change whether we are informed of those plans and the ramifications of the changes or not, but given the attitude of "all or nothing, on all platforms" it makes logical sense that someone somewhere made decisions which changed the outcome on this one
Separate names with a comma.