1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Feedback For Wcml South:

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by josh.ostrowski03, Sep 17, 2020.

  1. josh.ostrowski03

    josh.ostrowski03 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    123
    As many of us know, the release of WCML South today has been pretty heated as the route has many outstanding issues that tank the quality. Please reply with any issues you have seen regarding this route so we can have a compilation of the issues that will need to be fixed.
    Thanks for reading.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. OofBerry

    OofBerry New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2020
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    5
    -Euston in general. Obviously unfinished. There is holes in the walls, sparse interior objects (benches, signs). Ramps that lead to no where, the lot.[​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 5
  3. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2020
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    976
    Ouch!
     
    • Like Like x 4
  4. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2018
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    380
    Overhead wires missing on large parts of the route
    Ai conflicts causing game to end on Quick drive
    really terrible FPS (14 or less)
    Euston is a joke... clearly a work in progress.. it's not even funny.. just sad.

    Refund will be sought. This is terrible...
     
    • Like Like x 4
  5. josh.ostrowski03

    josh.ostrowski03 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    123
    Can you post some pictures of the missing overhead wires? Or have you already refunded?
     
  6. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2020
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    429
    Performance is shameful. RTX 2080ti and i7-9700k and I get 10-15fps. Did anyone at Dovetail bother actually running the route? And if they did...how did you release it in this state?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2018
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    380
    Yep.. here ya go....

    Railworks64 2020-09-17 23-19-21.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  8. josh.ostrowski03

    josh.ostrowski03 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    123
    Thanks for the photo! Good to see that the gantries are not missing.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    436
    I really want to sort this out.

    DTG, I'm available if you want the assistance. I've been freelance for a long time, but, I'll come in on this if you want, and I'll slog until I'm practically dead.

    Let's make your customer base happy, satisfied and eager for more. You already have my contact details. Call whenever you are ready.

    Thanks.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  10. josh.ostrowski03

    josh.ostrowski03 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    123
    Its great to know that you want to take action, and have the skills to do so!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. DROGE

    DROGE Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2019
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    73
    Sorry to say but the stream tonight was an absolute car crash. I felt genuinely sorry for Sam, having to stay positive when being put in the position of having to live stream a product that is clearly unfinished and unacceptably non-optimized. He had 5 FPS on a number of occasions. The drive consisted entirely of stuttering, low frames and a massive lack of fluidity. Truly, there aren't enough superlatives available for how bad that stream came across as a DTG promotional piece. It is abundantly clear that this route is categorically unfinished, and has been released 'as is' when not ready, to match the TS2021 release deadline.

    It is such a shame that the WCML South state has detracted from a fantastic core update to the core TS program. Stability seems vastly improved.

    I know DTG will never do it, but this route needs to be pulled. It is not fit for purpose in it's current state. It has the potential to be good but needs to be finished in terms of route and asset placement, and desperately needs serious optimization. I see some frame-dragging 3D foliage items running for miles up the embankments that are barely visible when driving from the cab. I want to see DTG flourish and continue to support our hobby with great products. But this is their darkest hour IMHO! Take action now please, before more damage is done.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  12. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    120
    Me personally believe that the route is not even needing an update, it needs to be competley redone from the ground up, or at least seriously reworked as the general look and feel of the route is beyond what I hoped for. The stuttering issues and poor optimisation is one thing, but when the route has some of the poorest textures I have ever seen I do question how much time has actually been put into developing the route as the hype that built up from it was big since it was announced not too long back.

    I had high hopes that at least the route would be amazing to look at, and knowing DTG they tend to do pretty well when it comes to route building, however when the stream for the WCML South first came up I was immidiately disappointed. The looks of Euston station were completely wrong, the aligment of the textures of the buildings was unbelievably poor, the quality of the textures seemed like they were taken from MSTS (and to be completely honest I have the MSTS version of the WCML, and it ironically looks better)

    The placement of some of the scenery clutter seems like a quick "drag and drop" which is what it is. In some areas the placement of these objects is totally wrong and it looks pathetic. The worst example is at the back of Euston station where just a random amount of ticket machines,vending machines etc have just been placed down to stop it looking from dull and bland which is just a big facepalm like seriously has this actually been done by a professional developer, or has it been done by some toddler?

    The foliage shown in the teasers for the WCML South route actually looked really nice since the WCML has a lot of vegetation, but in the gameplay the general amount of foliage in places was questionable. Some areas seemed to be heavily planted, and other areas were completely left out.

    The station modelling whilst looks fine was overshadowed by the very odd and dark baking of some of the buildings/shelters, im no expert on how this stuff works but in simple terms the buildings just look way toodark, even in midday.

    Euston Station does in my mind look accurate to some extent has some MAJOR issues. The obvious being the concrete textures used which look abysmal. Are you telling me that someone looked at that and thought "oh it looks fine" becuase it clearly does NOT. I've been to Euston plently of times and I can tell you that it simply doesn't look like that at all. Also do I have to talk about the back of Euston station and how small the stairway looks?

    Birmingham New Street whilst looks nice and seems fairly accurate has some of the poorest textures I've ever seen. The concourse in real life is quite eye-catching and modern with it's glass panels, but in TS they look absolutely dreadful. I dont know where the developers get these textures from, but the way they have been implemented is serioulsly unprofessional, so many corners were cut and it just looks horrible. Mind you the station itself actually looks decent, but could do with some slight lighting fixes as it looks a tad too dark in my opinion.

    The OHLE (I will make this very brief) it's wrong, completely wrong, it looks way too chunky (and this mistake is also seen on the TSW Bakerloo Line which was directly recycled from the GWE, so god knows where DTG took this OHLE from) oh and must I also mention the issue outside London where some of the OHLE is either misaligned or missing entirely, whats the deal with that?

    Now there are other problems that are not mentioned (e.g clipping bridges, lack of custom assets, the use of 2D textures, missing assets etc. Someone who has a better eye will probably be point those out)

    Now for the trains, first off the inclusion of the 390, 221,350,378 AND the PH 66 is a very nice touch, plenty of variety but with only 7 Career Scenarios included (the RailFan ones don't count) with there being Not a single one for the 378 OR the 221 and only ONE scenario for the 390 it begs a question as to why were they thrown in without them being even actually utilised properly and WHO was in charge of creating those scenarios. Plenty of the 350s probably about 65% of the scenarios created use the 350 they even included each of the sub-classes!

    The Class 390 itself which looks nice in the Avanti livery is a nice welcome-back addition since it was removed back several months ago due to licensing issues. Whilst nothing has changed there are issues with it. One being that it is VERY POORLY OPTIMISED, you get a max of 20FPS with it, and it ruins the experience of driving it close to the point where it becomes undrivable (now I know that was an issue that was fixed previously, but clearly it was not fixed properly). Secondly the AI destinations are broken, nothing more, nothing less. Thirdly the windows are COMPLETLEY dark. They are not even opaque in the slightest, you cant see anything, not even the top headlight is visible because of how dark the glass is. Lastly, the logos, they are poor. I dont know if Avanti has actually seen this product yet but if they were to see this, they would not be impressed at all, it would probably ruin their image, sort that out unless you want your licsence revoked...

    The Class 221, again looks nice in the Avanti livery which Im sure most of you know isn't accurate but that was probably for licensing reasons. Again nothing has been changed to it apart from the very awful sounds and the fact that it has this very unusual bug where if you put it into emergency the hud shows Chinese text? Apparently this is an issue with the NWC one too, so im not entirely sure why that is there. Again like before the quality of the logos is very poor, and shouldn't even happen when you are using LICENCED brands.]

    The Class 350. A nice addition, but one big problem is the livery. Why is it in London Midland when it should be LNWR? My guess is because DTG couldn't get the licence which could be the case, but nevertheless it is still nice regardless. However like the 390 the optimisation is horrible to the point where it is undriveable at times. I am at least happy to say that they haven't just straight up and just reskinned the 350 from the PDLE 450 and fitted a Pantograph (apparently the pantograph is incorrect?) Lastly, the colours are too pale in my opinion.

    Now I apologise if this was long and boring for you to read, but I think I need to get the message out to DTG and their developers that this sort of quality is unacceptable in the Train Simulator community and that we expect far better than what was delivered. It has genuinely put me in a state where I don't feel like I can trust DTG and I know that they can do far more from what I have experienced playing Train Simulator since 2014.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
    • Like Like x 10
  13. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    436
    Give me a call guys, I'm here to help.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2018
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    380
    Right... like they give a damn LOL NO ONE would have signed off on this mess if they did.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2020
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    976
    What on earth are the QA team doing? Sure some things will get by, but most of the issues are glaringly obvious and were raised within minutes of release.

    However, if you have read any of DTG Protagonist's posts in the TSW forums, as long as you can actually run the game, they're happy. The rest are just minor inconveniences.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2020
    Messages:
    746
    Likes Received:
    3,631
    That's incorrect. We're ensuring that you can run and play the game first. Other issues are second priority.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  17. markandrei24

    markandrei24 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2019
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    17
    Any updates/patches expected for this route? Thanks.

    Mark
     
  18. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2018
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    380
    We CAN'T run and play this game... not the WCML South with your ridiculous opaque windowed 15fps mess of a Pendolino anyway.

    So you release a route you know is incomplete, and charge me £40 for it... and THEN fix it? Not only that, you think it's just fine and dandy to openly admit this, as if it is US who are being unreasonable? Wow....

    You no longer have my £40. THAT'S what you should be concerned about. We would MUCH rather wait longer, and have a product that is worth the money. DO you REALLY think we'd rather have a product that makes us feel like we've been ripped off sooner rather than wait to have a polished product? Really? Where are you getting that from? It's certainly not from user freedback.

    No apology? The sheer arrogance if this is mind melting. Will we get an apology from DTG? Don't you think we're owed one?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  19. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2020
    Messages:
    746
    Likes Received:
    3,631
    Expected, yes. No details yet however.

    All the comments made here and specific problems encountered are being collated and sent to the development team who will be working on fixes.

    The level of disappointment, review score and general opinion over this release is being reported without any gloss.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  20. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    436
    Seriously, give me a call.

    If it ran well, I'd say the customer base would be forgiving. But it doesn't run well.

    It absolutely should run well.

    I frequently say this to my better half: "So, is that hurdle there to keep us in, or is it there for us to jump over?".

    I want to work with DTG at sorting out the hot mess of every single release.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  21. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2020
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    976
    Which has exactly the same meaning, but worded differently.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  22. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    436
    Please Sam, see if Matt and Simon would give me a call. I want to see Dovetail shine, for the love of trains :)

    This won't be the first time I've saved a broken product, and it won't be the last.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2018
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    380
    Really?

    324523452345.JPG

    I'd not be happy with that if it ran at 144fps with full HDR support... in 3D... wired directly to my brain.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  24. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    436
    Okay, fair point, but the baseline of everything is getting it to run right.

    Then after that, it's time to go for all the low hanging fruit.

    Lastly, meticulous attention to detail and q&a process to follow.

    It might be a clustercluck at the moment, but it's fixable.
     
  25. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2020
    Messages:
    578
    Likes Received:
    1,053
    Surely your first priority should be producing a quality product that runs.

    It should not be one or the other, and the fact that quality is your second priority is absolutely awful.

    This calls for a public apology alongside details of *exactly* how you'll be fixing this mess.

    If DTG wants to be more open, then this is your opportunity.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  26. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    436
    Please bring me on board guys, I've watched you wallow and languish for long enough.
     
  27. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2018
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    380
    Which should ALL be done BEFORE I pay £40 for the privilege of beta testing an incomplete product. There NO excuses.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  28. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    436
    Absolutely.

    If DTG bring me on board, I'll make it my mission to ensure the points I outlined are acted upon on every release PRIOR to release.

    No meeting the Quality Assurance? No shipping the product.

    Trouble with funds on the back of that? Time to restructure how the business operates then.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. jetgriff

    jetgriff Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2019
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    229
    Seems the problems on TSW are now manifesting on TS2021, sell you something that is not finished with the promise that it will work... one day ... oh dear what is DTG about these days?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  30. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,472
    Likes Received:
    898
    Somebody else who has a high spec computer and thinks that will make a difference on a 12 year old game :D
    TS2021 can only use so much of the power in a computer/graphics card
     
  31. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,472
    Likes Received:
    898
    :D :D :D
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  32. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,472
    Likes Received:
    898
    I think you were robbed - other people bought the WCML South for £24.99
     
    • Like Like x 1
  33. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    436
    Peter, it's time to help all we can to save our beloved hobby.

    I managed to turn a terrible phone system into a world class leading global taxi telecoms solution, which ended up being bought up by Renault Nissan.

    I never loved telecoms, or phones, but I bloody love trains, and from the research I've been doing over the past six months, I can see that team DTG need some more clout to their business process.

    I want in.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  34. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2018
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    380
    I didn't just want the WCML South. I also didn't have Fife... so I actually saved £10.
     
  35. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2019
    Messages:
    867
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Wow looking at what people are saying here, it's a huge shame how problematic this route is. I was actually considering buying it but at this point I'm better off buying the rest of the assets I need for the freeware WCML South.
     
  36. DPSimulation

    DPSimulation New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    17
    It's worth noting that the wires are actually present in these locations in terms of the fact that they have been placed in the editor. For some reason the sim is not keeping up with lofts, especially in the Willesden/Wembley area.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  37. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2018
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    380
    I suspected as much.... but seeing as we didn't buy a 125mph train to drive at 20mph... effectively, they're missing. Thanks for confirming though.
     
  38. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2020
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    429
    The point of mentioning my system specs were not to suggest that I should be running an ancient game at 1,000 fps but rather to point out that system specs are not a limiting factor in my case. So someone couldn't say, oh you have bad fps but maybe you're running it on a potato. It was given for context.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  39. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2020
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    429
    I will say, I'm really enjoying Fife. It's well done.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  40. josh.ostrowski03

    josh.ostrowski03 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    123
    Good to know that these problems are being actively worked on!
     
  41. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2018
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    380
    I had a quick look, but as I got as part of the whole deal, and then got a refund, I no longer have it. I'll grab it again as a stand alone route later on.. or maybe wait fro a sale. I'm kind of reluctant to hand any more money over to DTG, even if the route did look perfectly fine.
     
  42. DictatorDono

    DictatorDono Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    30
    The platforms at Wolverton are very low. There's a large height difference in reality but not THAT much.

    I'm also disappointed in the flyovers north and south of Rugby. The WCML Trent Valley depiction was excellent and it seems DTG have used the OLE from that route but not the bespoke bridges Thomson make for Rugby.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  43. josh.ostrowski03

    josh.ostrowski03 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    123
    can you post a picture of the low platforms?
     
  44. DictatorDono

    DictatorDono Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    30
    Sorry already refunded the route. The station asset has been modelled correctly, it just wasn't placed accurately in the world editor.
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  45. josh.ostrowski03

    josh.ostrowski03 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    123
    Thanks for the feedback. good to know that the station looks accurate apart from the low platforms.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  46. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    1,958
    Someone, somewhere needs a smacked bum.
     
  47. kylel2036

    kylel2036 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2020
    Messages:
    784
    Likes Received:
    600
    Screenshot 2020-09-18 at 4.49.26 PM.png Oh lord you can't make this up This is my favorite part from Alan's video
    But back on topic it seems that DTG are about to fix the FPS issues which is good but why couldn't this be done earlier you know before it released
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
    • Like Like x 4
  48. chippiearnold

    chippiearnold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    27
    I just want DTG to give Dunkrez a job so he can turn the Train Sim franchise into a successful global taxi phone system.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  49. Reef

    Reef Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2018
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    167
    So I posted this also in another thread but with luck that thread will get locked and deleted for being the troll thread that it is, I just posted the following there to piss off the OP more than anything else..

    Anyway, I'll post it here in its genuine seriousness too as this thread is more likely to survive and it's also of course relevant..

    I've just ran the whole Euston to Birmingham 390 Pendolino run and yes I've seen all the faults listed by Alan Thompson, and also Mark from JT and I agree wholeheartedly with them..

    BUT! I have to say I'm glad I DIDN'T refund it, my FPS was anything from 11 up to 30 and averaged out at +20 or so, all in all it was a relatively smooth run more akin to Marks run than Alan or Sams, I have to say a lot of the countryside and smaller station scenery is excellent and all in all it was a pleasurable trip.

    One caveat to this though is I like Mark (and thanks to him for the idea) cloned the route and removed the fog and set it to summer time, I don't know if the fog has a negative impact on the fps or not but removing it made the countryside come alive and really show the effort and skill that had been put into it.

    I can't wait till the patches drop and this route gets the love it's route builders surely deserve, as Mark said It's nothing against the route builders their work is outstanding, it's the serious lack of time allowed to beta test and bug fix that has let this route down, and I agree 100% with him.
     
    • Like Like x 7
  50. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    436
    Amazing :D Made my morning dude haha

    I learned a lot on that escapade, it was more of an exercise of taking on something that was alright fundamentally but a bit broken, and breaking it down into component pieces, rebuilding and packing it right for the market, overcoming all customer base objections organically. And this was a very sore customer base, having been ripped off by BT for years with hokey phone systems that would always fail on New Years Eve. In the end every customer felt like a winner, because the offering was crazy good. I basically stopped taxi firms using stupid Nortel type phone systems and in the end, managed to move our platform from hardware based to cloud, which was a brave move 6 years ago. It all started at a hugely prominent Yorkshire taxi firm, who went from having a phone system that could handle 60 lines and die, to one that comfortably held any amount of people in queue, and for me, the project interest peaked when we got as far as an awesome taxi firm in Minneapolis who started using an over the phone Siri type booking assistant I developed - probably one of the first live purely audio chatbot of sorts to market along with browser plugin based RTC phones (Nobody was shipping browser phones with their systems at that time). The end result was that the plucky little phone system I'd spent years refining ended up becoming a mainstay of the taxi world. This whole endeavour was also part of the response of taxi firms in the face of rivals such as Uber and Lyft.

    I guess the point I'm trying to explain, I've tackled something similar and same theories apply here.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
    • Like Like x 2

Share This Page