Fix Tsw 4 Or Keep Making New Content?

DTG already got plenty of revenue from us buying several version of TSW, a product with faults with continuing promises that the new version will be better and improved and stable bla bla bla. DLCs are addtional stand alone revenue.

 

95 people have voted yes.

DTG have no choice but to ignore those 95 people, because the thing they have voted for isn't possible.

Hypothetical situation for you:

Lets say DTG agree to pause all development until the bugs are fixed. What happens to the staff who are developing new content, but can't fix bugs? Do you have them sitting around doing nothing? Who pays for that? Or, more likely, do you lay them all off, gutting your teams, and losing lots of institutional memory. Having laid them off, where does that leave the game?

DTG's in house developed routes are getting better and better as the teams are getting better and better. Those teams will improve further as they build their experience and institutional memory.

DTG have staff with different capabilities. There will be some people who design routes who aren't able to work on the bugs which are issues not with design, but the core game.

What those who want DTG to pause development of new routes to fix the bugs are saying, in a business context, is lay off the design teams while the programmers fix the core game.

No business that is thinking long term about it's future would make such a decision, therefore this poll is irrelevant to the future of TSW. I'm a trouble shooter, I go in to companies and teams that are failing and I turn them around. If somebody brought me this proposal for a business I was turning around, they would be the one leaving the business. The thinking is short term, blind to reality, and would lead to a worse outcome in five years.

 

I presume you know money doesn't last forever, right?

 

Sure to finally fix and make the game looks all the same by improving everything, thats is what Dovetail have to understand, that we will no buy more if they do not fix the main issue on the game...its normal, dont know how they didnt said that on a business meeting....

 

If you bought a car off BMW, but it had faults, so you ask BMW to fix, they promise to fix it but they don't, but they tell you of a new car coming out that will be new and improved. So, you buy that car to find same problems, so you go back and ask BMW to fix the problems and again you get the promises of fixes, but they tell you of a new car coming out that is all new and improved. So, you buy the new model car and again there are issues and as before you ask BMW to fix the issues, they eventually give in and fix some issues, but some still remain, but they tell you about a new and improved car coming out. So you buy that....There is a pattern developing here, I am glad everybody has a degree in business, I am just a humble consumer.."fool me once....." how does the rest go? If DTG bring out another TSW players are not going to take their hand off. This is why people are starting to walk away from TSW, that and the direction in content.

Disclaimer.
(BMW is only used as an example of how DTG currently operate as a company and not an actual reflection of BMW, if BMW did what DTG are doing, how would BMW's 5 year plan look?)

 

The last thing I'm going to say on this pointless saga, if you were a person with a completely open agenda, as soon as people pointed out that you had missed a totally valid option to the poll, you would have said cool I didn't think of that and added it. But instead you are trying to dismiss any view that won't line up with your pointless poll, so you clearly and definitely have an agenda, simple logic proves that at least.......

 

That's not my problem, DTG have sold several version of the same reheated product on the promise they will fix it and they haven't. If you bought a bike at your local bike shop and it was faulty and you brought it back and they sold you another bike with the same problems and this happened several times and you ask them to stop whatever they are doing and fix your bike, you wouldn't be concerned about how the bike shop would make money, so why are you concerned about DTG?

 

If you want to talk about trains I will engage with you.

 

I find this analogy interesting, as yes if BMW did this they would be stuffed. However, I would not say comparing DTG to BMW is fair, BMW are much more mainstream cars however DTG has a much more niche simulator more comparable to, say, Lotus. They do make some lovely cars, which look great and have a big enough appeal to have a business, but you need to have some interest in cars for them to appeal to you. Generally this is the same with TSW and DTG's DLC. Lotus cars, from my experience, have plenty of problems with them, with some of them causing a fair bit of grief and annoyance, again like TSW & its DLC. So, you may ask, why did I buy another one and why do I continue to buy TSW? The answer to both of these questions is simple: when they are nice and you get a good run out of them it is such an enjoyable experience and these positives outweigh the drawbacks. So yes I agree that both companies need to get recurring issues sorted, but I don't expect either to stop producing what they make, and I expect that both will (hopefully) continue to make money and be successful.

 

Hard, but not impossible. Important is the POV to look at it. As all things in life, one need the will and motivation to commit and be willing to change. For example, when a sick person goes into the hospital for a treatment or an addict goes into therapy, one of the first steps needed to be completed is the self-approval that the way you do is wrong and you have the interest and will to change. This is the key to the future success od said therapy. If this is not provided, at least a good doctor or therapist should tell that the aim really is impossible and that all his potential work with the individual is proven to fail.

Exactly this will/motivation/interest at Dovetail Games and/or Focus to change anything is what I can't see (enough), at least at the moment.

Yes, we getting explanations and words why something isn't possible from Matt or the community managers either in livestreams or here in forum, but I still fail to see the will behind to achieve things, even if they seem to be impossible at first glance.

I want to see evidence that they tried all what they can (not just words) to achieve it and make it possible. All we rely on is statements, but there is absolutely no evidence to see (neither implicitly nor directly) that they ever even really intended to change something since the release of TSW4.

That's a bit of an incorrect and inprecise assumption to begin with.

Of course there are developers only for the core. However, not all issues and bugs are related to core game developers. Issues related to routes (signalling, tracks, scenarios, scenery etc.) which fairly are not in the minority could be fixed by route builders if they would be ordered to do so.

And here can't be am excuse because if they have developers available for and are capable to build new routes, then they also can fix issues and bugs related to older routes.

Regarding bugs and issues to the core, if not sufficient developers are available to fix these, why do they not hiring more or getting people to work those out on a voluntary base (maybe in exchange for products of them)?

Now you might say that they already have a limited budget to keep the developers they have, however money still seems to be enough to hire more and more community managers (just like Rivet Games).

The only real argument I don't necessarily say something against is that they need to develop new content to generate income and keep the businees alive. However, and this is the reason why doing a business this way will fail at least at some point in the future, part of keeping a business alive and keeping their reputation, keeping people buying their content, keep people trust in them, is fixing and improving their products.

Otherwise the vicious circle is going to start.

If I - as a business - fail to fix and/or improve my broken products, my reputation will get worse, people purchase my products less than before, I make new content and sell copies but because I don't fix those either, I will even sell worse than already before, long story short, ending up that I will go bankrupt sooner or later.

DTG already is inside of the circle. Only time will tell, how long it will continue.

That's just a personal opinion and I don't know how much this has anything to do with the purpose of this thread. Goblin is definitely of good quality (despite still lacking essential things like passenger announcements). However, you need to take into account that it just has a short length and thus more time could be spent with improving the scenery here. I very much doubt that we will get a route longer than 20 km by the Goblin level.

Also an additional thought, even if that were true, why don't they start improving old routes with their "new knowledge" then? And with the answer to this I cycle back to the intial problem: No will/interest/motivation to do so. The money aspect is not a joker/excuse for every fault they do.

 

If I bought a bike from a bike shop and it was faulty and they try to get me to buy another I'd go to another shop.

But, bike shops aren't as niche a market as a train simulator, so a poor analogy. I can easily go to another one. But there aren't many other train simulators I can turn to.

 

Yeah, so what you are saying is if you had more a choice you would go somewhere else, says it all then.

 

Simply not true, for example one of the steam releases came with 2 steam trains, LIRR with 2 emu’s, before that there were several in the early days of TSW, such as Western Express which had the 43 and a 165, there were many examples back in the good old days, I can think of German routes with 2 locos as well. All we get now as the 2nd locos are endless boring rehashes of the 66 and the German shunter in the same old paint schemes. In TS24 for example Feather Canyon enhanced there are multiple new locos and any rereleases get a new livery too.

 

Fair points, but I only pulled BMW out of the air as an example of a company. Completely different company and product etc. You could insert your local bakery instead of BMW, the outcome would be the same, DTG are faling to resolve their issues and this makes me worry about TSW's future.

 

TBH all you need to add to TS24 nowadays is Railworks Enhancer 2 and everything visual and sound related is taken care of for you, it even runs smoother with no stutters. So that’s a one off purchase. Don’t add anything else.

 

Worrying about a piece of software just seems bonkers to me, sure I don't want it to disappear, but at the same time won't really care if it does, it won't change my life in anyway in both instances.......

 

The M7 we already saw before with the old LIRR route, the M3 was a loco DLC for the old route, the new LIRR route only had 1 new EMU with the M9.

Yeah, but they aren't very good looking or performing.

 

Even that is a rather rare case. Sure, MSB had both the 146 and 186 but they're honestly very similar. In fact 2 locos, but actually more or less the same.
The last one i can think of is BRO which had both the 110 and the cab car. But that's not the norm to have 2 new cabs.

 

It truly is about expectations...your PERSONAL expectations about value. I look at it from my perspective since it's my money and time. I ask myself if I'll enjoy it, how long I'll enjoy it, and what that costs in work. Let's compare it to say watching a movie. Some movies are good, some bad... you don't always know what you're getting, but a movie can run you maybe $5-$10 an hour. (I know people stream and stuff, but it's a general thing... what is "entertainment" cost? Go to a concert, go to an amusement park, go to a bar, etc) Let's say "fun" is $5-10 an hour.
So, I ask myself...is this as enjoyable as a movie at that rate? If not, I should go do something else.
If I can get something on sale for $10, then I figure.... "will this entertain me for an hour?" If it's yes...then that's a good deal.
If not, it's not.
If it's $40...will it last 8 hours?

For example, I have spent HOURS on the Oakville route that I picked up on sale for maybe $12. That was a good deal. It's a fun relaxing way to spend a few hours on a Sunday morning. It more than paid for itself.
For another example, the Fife Circle was about $30 this week. If it's good for 3-6 hours of enjoyment then it was "worth it" even without later upgrades. Are the bugs THAT bad that you can't enjoy it at ALL?

Some games are like that. They are so buggy you can't play them and they CAUSE frustration. They aren't fun.
Others are just a bit glitchy but still FUN.... so you ARE getting what you pay for.
I've put a couple hours into Fife so far, just long enough to explore the whole circle. Haven't really gotten into the timetable yet. Just enjoying the scenery. Then there's the Leven opening soon and bugs being fixed.
To me, it's "fine." Nothing is "game breaking." I see some possibilities to maybe add a scenario or two of my own.
Bottom line is there a few more hours of "fun" available from it?
Hell yes there is!
So I can't call it a "failure."

Maybe it's not how everyone looks at it. Maybe they want perfection every time for pennies. I'd say from MY perspective as a casual gamer and a non-railfan (I like trains, but don't get in the weeds about the details) it's "fun" which is what a GAME is. The bridge was amazing. Didn't see anything wrong with the 170. The coastal areas and the port were good. The ballast looked fine. The sounds were fine. The animations were ok. The close in scenery was fine. The farther out panorama was...ok. There wasn't much traffic volume or variety, but I can't tell if that's normal or not. Maybe Scotland is just a couple commuter trains. There were a few sidings I can use in scenarios later. Nothing "broke" it for me.

Having said that, a few routes have been of considerably less value (to ME mind you) than others. CCB for example was not "fun" despite picking it up on sale. It felt like a "slog" puttering on a single line through boring terrain. Note... to ME.... this is entirely personal value. If you like it, that's GREAT. Most commuter lines feel like a "grind" to me, so I tend to avoid them. Even on sale I'm not getting enough value out of them.

This only impacts actual VALUE for me if it's impacting the "fun." Now, if someone else just can't play the game because the whistle is the wrong pitch or the ballast is the wrong color or the buildings are the wrong type, then that's entirely reasonable they are upset and not getting "fun" out of the game because they're so distracted they can't feel the "immersion" of playing the game and enjoying it.

I think that's why we disagree so much with these things... we're not seeing the same VALUE in things and not getting the same EXPERIENCE because it hits us all different. What is a "game breaker" for one person isn't even noticed by another. Who knows... that might even extend to devs. They are people after all, and many are gamers (which is why they got INTO the industry in the first place) so they may not be seeing the faults, assume they're minor or have made a choice that "most people won't notice."

It doesn't make them terrible people except in the rare case they've actively lied or misrepresented (and even then, exaggerating or having an optimistic timetable don't count as a "lie.")
If someone has sunk $500 into this sim and have had 100 hours of "fun" then they have gotten their money's worth. You can always ask for better and hope for more, but in the end.... you paid money and you had fun. You would have blown that money doing OTHER things and (hopefully) not complained quite so much right?
If you enjoy a pint... it's worth it.
If you enjoy a movie... it's worth it. Even if you don't enjoy it, you took a chance. Now, it's fair if you say "I won't buy from Rivet since I don't like their routes" just like if you say "I don't like Fast and Furious movies so I don't go see them." However, saying they are "bad" or "incompetent" because YOU don't like them isn't exactly fair because those movies (and Rivet train routes) seem to make quite a bit of money from OTHER people who are enjoying them.