Upcoming Release Frankfurt S-bahn: Coming Soon!

I dunno, it's better than "This is how it turned out and we have no plans to look at it further", isn't it?

Not if they offer it free again.

That's the magic question. Hopefully the eventual answer is positive.

 

Same for me, cannot accept this trains missing on current gen (freight specially) and only over 600 services compared to 1000 is also a huge loss for console players, only 6 months have passed when i upgraded to PS5, this cut out for current gen is shocking

 

That's exactly the point. The reduced number of trains is simply not good.

 

I played a stretch of Cyberpunk 2077 on my friend's PS5 Pro yesterday. What I noticed was how empty the streets were compared to the PC version of the game that I play at home. Granted, I'm comparing the PS5 version of the game to how I run the game on my PC, with maxed out settings on the number of cars, pedestrians etc as well as raytracing (which is also very limited on the PS5 version).

I reckon CD Projekt Red ran into the same limitations that DTG is running into with TSW, and simply couldn't expand the number of cars, pedestrians and flying objects.

I'm not here to bash consoles or console players (I own a Switch and PS4 myself, along with some retro consoles) and they have some pretty cool exclusive games (Gran Turismo!) and types of games that are not available on PC or don't fair very well on PC (platformers come to mind).

But PC-to-console conversions are showing their limitations on consoles, and it won't get better soon. This is purely to do with the limited amount of CPU processing power in the current gen consoles (including PS5 Pro - see my previous post) and limited amount of RAM and VRAM. The PS5 Pro has 16GB available to the game it's running*, and that 16GB needs to be partitioned into system RAM (for storing game data) and VRAM (for storing objects that need to be rendered to the screen, as well as rendered frames for the AI resolution scaling and frame generation). That's not a lot.

A typical PC has 16GB of system RAM alone, and a separate pool of VRAM (usually between 8GB and 16GB).

I don't think it's fair to bash DTG on their "decision" to not include as many services in the console version of this route - I really think it's not possible to get the huge amount of detail, large world map, train physics and a laege number of non-player trains on the route with the limted CPU power and lack of RAM

*And another 2GB for the console's operating system that the game can't access, for a total of 18GB of RAM.

 

I'm most worried that this DLC will be the second HMA. Empty stations, almost no train traffic. And there's also the possibility of blurring textures. Buying DLC for TSW5 for console players is starting to be a lottery. My opinion is that releasing two versions of the timetable will only reduce console players' willingness to buy other DTG products. Proof is the postponement of the Cologne timetable for consoles. For now, I'll wait for the developers' statement.

 

HMA has 155 services, this is 4 times more and roughly 25% more services then DRA. Does DRA feel like a ghost town to you?

Even with the reduced timetable its going to be in or around the top 5 of routes in terms of number of playable services.

 

This is an absolutely misleading thought. redrev1917 already said it and I‘ll put it in a different perspective for you: Even consoles will have the same amount of drivable services as the new Köln-Aachen timetable… 600 services is a awful lot and the AI services aren‘t even included in that list. I‘ll agree however that the way it was stripped down is a bit disappointing because it cut the number of services by simply removing certain types of trains altogether which was probably also the exciting aspect of the SKA timetable… I‘ll note that I‘m a PC player so it‘s easy for me to yap about because I‘m not affected but it is my honest opinion

 

Guys, how about taking this now almost pub-style debate to here:
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/enough-is-enough.72535/page-147
and discussing the actual route, trains, locos etc., y know the ACTUAL stuff about this route?

 

The big difference Is that the HMA or DRA have ALL trains on current gen (freight, passengers, IC ICE shunting) does this two routes have less services? Yes but for the S Bahn some of these trains are completely missing, if they instead of cutting some trains have lowered the number of services this hot debate has never started

 

We are discussing the trains, locos etc., we're discussing how much we were looking forward to driving the ICE1, ICE3, the DB BR 101, seeing the 363, 628 and particularly the 193 Vectron, which was going to be hauling five different types of wagons, only to see all of that traffic taken away due to a memory leak introduced somewhere in the TSW5 code.

 

Yes, the point is less what’s there than what’s missing. I wouldn’t mind a route having 100 services if that’s realistic. It’s knowing what we should be able to see that spoils the immersion, and reduces the replayability.

AI trains are extremely important in the World aspect of Train Sim World. They give you the impression that you’re in a dynamic, varied and realistic world. When this is done well it’s the #1 strength of the game, and it’s something they should prioritise.

 

I am reassured that DTG are looking at this and that it might get solved in future. In that case, holding off on purchase until then is entirely the right thing to do - both from a perspective of the quality of the product itself, and of showing DTG they need to do it.

We have plenty of routes to play until then.

 

which they are looking for a solution for, just the discussion itself gets drowned among a sea of whining full of conspiracy-level assumptions about DTG and stuff

 

anyway, just checked the official stuff about the route/locos and seeing 143... well, I hope they manage to solve the e-brake issue plagueing 143/112 and for some ppl also 114

 

Everything is fine! DTG'S Scooby Gang has fired up the Mystery Machine and are on the case (8 months after launch), and will be sure to figure it out any day now! Or at least for the TSW6 launch. Probably.

 

oh, we are going down this road, arent we? sarcasm and irony is my third language after my mother tongue and English ... or, as Captain America would say "I can do this all day"

 

Considering the content that is a very fair price.

Although it is only 9th gen will it work via Xbox PC gaming, even if you have a 8th gen system? Can anyone at DTG confirm please?

 

I’m sure I seen a thread for that somewhere, the e-brake issue…

 

yeah and it is a shame, since I have done a very nice and detailed livery for it
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/razmatus1987-liveries.76413/#post-755646

and also created a thread dedicated to tips and tricks for driving this kind/class of locos with similar control scheme:
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/br-112-143-114-driving-style.82810/

 

That's all nice, but since the most fundamental problem with TSW5 is texture blurring, which I consider to be a graphics issue, so I don't know... moreover, even maps that used to work suddenly don't work, or start to blur, and nothing has changed in terms of the scope of the simulation and operation, so I don't really believe that the fault is in the "outdated" hardware.

And even then, when I see what the current TSW5 on the PS5 Pro can't handle, even the cropped version with 600 services will work without blurring......

 

If you are disappointed as a customer, then you are spreading conspiracy theories. Then we should not be disappointed anymore and accept everything or what?

 

Its a matter of principle. This is no reason to withhold 40% of possible serevices.

Still no reason for withholding 40% of the possible services!

 

Perhaps it would be a solution for DTG to come back to there originally procedure of releasing console stuff. Till including Main Spessart Bahn the routes came out first on PC. Then they optimized it for consoles. And if the optimization was ready they released it on consoles.

I wouldn't have a problem to wait 3 or 4 months if it means to get a complete route.

 

I think you're missing my point: this would be a very plausible reason for the lack of services on the consoles for this route.

The services that you can play, also appear as AI in the other services because it's one big time table.

More AI = more processing cycles and more RAM required, both of which are on a ration on current gen consoles.

As I mentioned before, the same is true for titles like Cyberpunk 2077 (less AI in the form of cars, pedestrians and flying objects on the console versions of that game compared to the PC version).

 

I am amused how many people think that Train Sim World and Cyberpunk 2077 are comparable games.

 

I'm not defending the blurry textures or the sudden crappy performance of existing routes - I'm with you on that.

But I am trying to put the situation surrounding the lack of services for the new route in perspective as quite a few people are claiming things out of emotion here, so it's good to hear counterpoints once in a while. I'm a software developer myself, and while I don't develop games perse, I am familiar with Unreal Engine and the problems that writing for several platforms at once can cause.

I've been reading up on the memory leak that has been mentioned here*, and if that's truly the case then that could be a cause for the crappy performance and blurry textures for existing routes. Unreal Engine loads low res ("blurry") textures for all assets at first, and only swaps them out for higher resolution textures as the player approaches the object to which the texture is applied. Normally you don;t notice that, as those blurry textures are only applied to objects at the very edge of the viewing cone (the bits of the world that you can see at one specific moment in time as the player).

If Unreal Engine at that specific moment can't allocate the resources (cycles, RAM) to do the swap, it will prioritise frame rate and game logic (i.e. the rules to which game checks the player actions) and physics, and keep using the blurry texture no matter how close the player is to the object. Sometimes it will find the resources eventually and swap out the textures (very noticably) when you're near the object. If that still doesn't happen on console version of TSW, this means that the resources are simply not available.

But only the devs at DTG can know if this is the cause for sure, as you'd have to use debugging tools to see what happens in asset management. Assets need to be removed from the array as they're no longer needed to make room for the next batch of assets. This housekeeping (or garbage cleaning) is normally done by Unreal Engine out of the box, although a dev can tweak it or even disable it.


*I don't play TSW on console, so this was news to me.

 

They are, in the frame of reference to how AI "traffic" is handled in game engines. Both CD Projekt RED's in house engine and Unreal Engine rely on the CPU for the handling of AI driven (NPC) objects in the game, as does pretty much every game engine out there.

I mentioned CP2077 (more specific: the PS5 version of that game) as an example on how AI traffic is reduced on PS5 compared to the PC version (on higher settings). I only did so since I witnessed PS5 CP2077 doing this too when I played it over the weekend at a friend's house, and merely pointed out that TSW is not unique in this aspect.

 

come on man, more strawman... dont skew my words, pls ... being disappointed and expressing that is one thing, but then jumping into assumptions is quite another... it gets into conspiracy theory territory when after you explain yourself you start making up things that supposedly go on behind the scenes

let me give you another of like 1000 examples I got up my sleeve from my job... a customer walks up to the cashier, today it was me (who is near a PC that we use to look up books), and asks about some book... I look it up, ok, we should have a copy... so I toll a little bell I got beside me (we use that to call upon colleagues across the store), and a colleague is on his way to me... in the meantime, customer makes a remark like "oh my, you are so lazy you dont go look up my book" (or sth in that style)... the rest of the situation isnt really important - the customer makes up this reason, when in truth I HAVE to stay at the cash register for safety reasons (several of our stores got cash registers broken in if left alone, even locked up)

and I could go on and on... I understand you or others are upset and why they are upset (I think enough ppl already said what needed to be said as for the reasons why)... what is not ok is ppl making up stuff like, oh my, they dont care jacks..., they want to rip us off on purpose... when you know 0.0 of what is really going on behind the scenes... and a company employee wont just go yappin and disclosing internal matters and debates and processes on this forum just to calm your emotions

stuff takes time, y know? in a rush to fix some thing someone is very vocal about, they might screw up the whole product... and you dont solve problems by going into matters hot-headed... also, they aint got infinite time and resources to pore over every single thing... and often it is a matter of taking a lesser evil so to speak

when they are on their way to find an ACTUAL solution, I am pretty sure they will either put it into an article or say it in a video

and for the record, I am not a DTG fanboy, I know there are bugs and stuff that also affect my experience, and I got OCD and other juicy tendencies in my head that make stuff "awesome" ... and STILL I dont go on a condemnation tirade

and I dont even work in that kind of company that DTG is... I work in a freakin bookstore... over the more than a decade, I have seen/heard many things either IRL or online about how customers assume things that they think go behind the scenes... and I am sick and tired hearing the same kind of stuff unfolding here

I know you guys are passionate about trains and this game, and so am I... but that doesnt give me the right to make assumptions out of thin air and then try and disguise them as being an unsatisfied customer

yes, we all heard you are angry at getting less for the same price... then you get comments/replies, reasonable ones, that give possible explanations based on reality... and you just go on the same wavelength as if those comments never happened

like goddammit, this is a thread about Frankfurt S-Bahn, BR430 and whatever else will be included, you made your point, yet so many here just clog this thread with the same over and over and over and over... I am pretty positive at least half of forum's moderators and community managers already noted this kind of response going on, lets talk about actual content... there are other threads for therapy

 

No reason for the reduced timetable on console because they are too embarrassed to say: "Unfortunately, our game isn't optimized enough for very capable consoles. So here's a watered down version of the DLC but the price remains the same."

I feel very sorry for those who recently upgraded to Gen 9 assuming they can finally run the game with no reductions, just to be met with yet another reduced timetable with NO option to get the full.

 

Let's hope the preview stream will be on console....

 

I am quite sure that the preview will be on PC, as usual. But they should show the reduced timetable, which matters to the majority of their customers. I am not interested in seeing the full timetable, which I will not be able to access as a console player.

 

And doubtless they will skip past the awkward questions. I think mine will be why even do Frankfurt again when they know from last year’s Fulda route it was a stutter fest. Then pile on top of that a massive urban timetable. Even on PC I can see this being a stutter and sound squelching abomination so they will have to hard sell if they want my £30 on release date.

 

Point of things like enough is enough is more for off-topic chatter, nothing here being said really warrants "containment". The PC exclusive timetable for better or for worse is by far the most interesting and discussion worthy feature. And as annoying as you might find it DTG's past shows that if people aren't loud and frequent about these issues that they will use it as a excuse to ignore it. Lot of companies do that, often they'll actively do things they know are unpopular but hedge bits that people won't care long term and it won't impact commercial performance.

Agree, I see people on PC saying this won't effect them, but frankly just because it runs on PC doesn't mean it's gonna be a desirable experience. Look at the infamous NEC Trenton, was a complete stutter-fest on any piece of hardware, could easily see the full timetable having those same issues. A shame, since I was actually looking to actually buy this route for the 420. But as is I'm gonna hold off at least a few days to see what performance issues this has, because my gut feeling is that there's gonna be something rotten with it even on high-end PC's.

 

Thanks for the extensive reply, Matt. If/when the memory issue is more or less solved, will the full timetable be released for the consoles ?

 

Thanks Matt.
Trains are my great passion and TSW gives me great satisfaction.

 

Glad to hear that the upgrade is still an option.

 

Matt, thanks for the informative comment. Do I understand correctly that the problems described above also result in the unfortunate blurring of textures? Because on the PS5 Pro I don't currently have crashes as such, it just blurs, which is very unpleasant

And I agree, Frankfurt Fulda is such a high bar for performance that it's probably insurmountable for consoles.

 

Thanks for the update Matt, sorry if any frustration has boiled over into rudeness, I know the vast majority of us just want to be playing the game at the best it can be.

Here's hoping the areas you've identified will solve the problems, I really want to play the full experience, but having bought over 100 DLCs for my PS5 I can't easily switch to PC.

 

I have also only blurry textures or the flickering in the Cab Like the Vectron or Electrostars on Xbox Series X
No Crash at all

 

Thanks for you reply Matt, now i have understand better and will wait for more info in future

 

Keeping us posted is very much appreciated and needed, Matt. Nothing worse than not being given updates and even leads to more level headed users (me, honestly..!) starting to speculate wildly about whether there are any programmers left on staff.

Fairly evident something has gone wrong when even ancient routes like HRR are stuttering and sound squelching where there was none before. Obviously older hardware plays a part where PC's are concerned but it becomes hard to reconcile the relatively steady performance TSW4 and the first iteration of TSW5 (generally) gave compared to now.

So fingers crossed for the hope that the problem has been identified and can be fixed. Frankfurt is one I would like to get as it's a reasonably extensive network, unlike Cardiff , but I need to be able to justify the £30 outlay to myself.

 

I cannot guarantee that what I am saying is correct but I think it‘s more an indirect consequence: As we have learnt from numerous replies now, the PS5 (all versions) allocate parts of its total RAM to CPU and GPU, not utilising dedicated RAM and VRAM. Matt‘s comments refer to issues causing excessive usage of RAM for simulation purposes which then could result in too little RAM being available for graphical computations thus causing blurry assets. It‘s barely a theory and hope but once the memory issues get fixed or at least reduced, the blurry textures could cease to exist as well. It would also explain why PC doesn‘t seem to have this issue: They have a separate VRAM…

 

Again... TSW was created for consoles. That's the purpose in creating it (instead of staying with TSC, which arguably sells well too.)
They won't "abandon consoles" when that's 80% of their market. Then they'd just abandon TSW altogether and invest more in other games.
The posters above have a valid point that consoles are not that much better than they were in 2019. They ARE falling behind.
That's not something DTG can "fix."
Now the competing problem is players are asking for MORE MORE MORE... but their consoles are already struggling with the current content.
So you have a decision to make as a game developer:
Do you want DTG to back off on "more more more?"
Or do you want them to include more...for PCs first, then release it for better consoles when they come along (since hte work will already be done?)
They seem to have chosen the second choice.
I don't know what other issues might be involved ("leak" or "optimization" or whatever) I don't have access to theri code and I'm not a programmer. That's all just guesswork from the outside. I can see the results in games as a player, know the system specs as a gamer, and see the marketing as a customer.
Computer are considered "outdated" at 1.5 to 2 years.
Consoles are using processors from basically 6 years ago.
That's 3 "generations" behind.
Applying computer logic, if I were using the "average" computer from 2019 still in 2025, I'd be told "if you can't play the game go get a better computer! That's ANCIENT!"
Console players unfortunately can't do that.
It sucks Microsoft and SONY have dropped the ball, but blaming DTG for it isn't fair and it doesn't fix the situation since you're barking up the wrong tree.
Personally, I would probably have gone the other route (release more, simpler routes with half the content which was the existing TSW standard) and take the "hit" on the forums for there "not being enough AI traffic" but it's not my call. DTG made the choice to keep the tech improving, but locked behind a tech wall for release later.
(Again, they COULD release it now, but you'd STILL have players bombarding the forums screaming about how "terrible" the route is with all the layers on with a console, and how it's "literally unplayable!"
It's a lose-lose so any option sucks until consoles improve significantly.
Partly it's the blame of DTG and players in demanding more "detail" and "features" that other games don't demand. For example the ability to "hop into" any train means every train at all times must be FULLY modeled with every component, so you can't "cheap out" and have AI trains taking up less space or using less resources. That's a "cool" feature that means you can't "cheat" like GTA or ATS. It makes the game a resource hog, but it's needed for that functionality.
You're getting what you demanded....it just has a cost.
If every "cool new feature" adds just a little bit to the processing required, then it all adds up.
Something like TSC that essentially hasn't changed in features in years is going to be a lot cleaner and simpler to run, with people just adding mods (if they want) and DTG releasing routes (well selling third party routes) that don't change the game core itself.
Not saying anyone is "wrong."
It's just the consequences of making choices.
That's how life works.
I'm sure even Microsoft and SONY have reasons for not releasing new consoles.

 

I was very hyped for this route. I was even thinking about making it a day 1 buy. But seeing the heavily reduced timetable for consoles has scratched that. I'm not going to dive into a long rant as it won't solve anything.
I'll let my wallet speak. Full timetable has 1000 playable services. On PS5 I only get 600. That's a reduction of 40%. OK, I'll hold off on this route untill it's on sale with a 40% reduction in price. We'll probably be playing TSW7 before such a reduction will appear, but I can wait, I have enough other routes to play in the meantime.

 

Ah, so TSW is primarily made for consoles, on which it doesn't work very well, but it's Sony and Microsoft's fault that it's like that...... Thanks for explaining the problem

 

Wait, so it's the CUSTOMERS who are being emotional here lol? Hmmmm

 

Ok you've complained... now what's your proposed solution?
That's the next step after identifying an issue in the problem solving process.
And if your answer is "well it's THEIR problem to fix!" then you aren't interested in thinking about it or making things better.
You just want someone else to solve all your problems.
Because it's in fact not DTG's "problem" that consoles aren't improving as fast as PCs.
As I already said, It's not my preferred solution.
I'd say freeze the CPU load on routes until MS and SONY improve on their end.
However, DTG has chosen to develop more content for the future instead of going back and "updating" Frankfurt later, then releasing it as better consoles come on the market.
You can criticize fairly their choice of approaches, but blaming DTG for things they didn't control (the speed of consoles) is just silly and counterproductive. Why is it more attractive to blame DTG for making new content, and not acceptable to blame MS and SONY for not significantly improving their tech for years?
Put the blame for each thing where it properly belongs.
Otherwise you're just whining with no intent to improve yourself.