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Future Road Map

Discussion in 'PlayStation Discussion' started by matjamca, Jul 14, 2020.

  1. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    So, as DTG has promised that one week before the launch of TSW 2, which according to my calculations is 30 July 2020, it will share its road map with us, we have just 16-days until the future of TSW 2 is laid out before us.

    I’m more excited about this than the actual launch of TSW 2 on 6 August 2020 and I’m super excited about that.
     

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  2. OnlyMe1909

    OnlyMe1909 Well-Known Member

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    Don't get your hopes up too high. I'm not expecting any new content to be on this roadmap for the first couple of months. During that time I think we'll only see content of the preserved collection on the roadmap.
     
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  3. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    The form the roadmap takes is yet to be decided (we'll know once we write the initial one) however to aim is to provide as much information as possible. The challenge will then be to simultaneously train the community to understand what it is we're detailing, and train ourselves to provide frequent, regular updates to show how things move around, how they slip in and out of the schedule.

    Initially, I've no doubt that it will be treated with equal parts scepticism and excitement, until we make the first releases and make the first changes. Over the following 6 months, if it is correctly updated and interpreted, it should become an indispensable source of information. Whether we can pull that off remains to be seen.
     
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  4. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    I saw that the TSW2 release is delayed until the 20th so that the 1st phase of preserved collection can be used alongside the new scenario planner which is great news. I'm still not clear though, in roadmap terms, how we will get GWE/RT/NEC in the future. For me this was physical disc content. All the talk of the preserved collection is that 'in TSW2 you download all your TSW addons'. So those routes were base content and not addons unless I am reading too much into the terminology used.
     
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  5. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

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    im agreeing with tin tin. i have the disc version and i want to play what ive paid for in the new version of the game. personally im not bothered for a livery editor seems a waste of time for me im happy to rum my trains with the BR logos or whatever i paid for. i just want to run my Class 52 and the crompton on the GWE
     
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  6. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    Where did you see the game has been delayed?

    UPDATE: Actually just saw it. That’s annoying. Why announce the 6th and then change it :(:mad:
     
  7. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    Yes, sorry about that, we listened to community feedback so are taking the time to make preserved collection better.

    As for disk-based owners of preserved collection routes/locos, we're aware of the issue you face. I don't have more information than that right now, but we are aware that it could be a problem.
     
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  8. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    In that case. Forgiven :)
     
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  9. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Sam for the update
     
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  10. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    This is just a personal opinion: ===>> I would like DTG to always consider delaying a release if they are in any doubt about the quality of that release. I fully get that sticking to plans is more ideal (and that some people actually arrange their holidays for planned software releases....!)... but I would always hope that delay is an option, if needed. An end to rushed out software would be most welcome. No more OSDs please.

    In this case - the delay to TSW2 is extremely well justified, as they are fundamentally changing the flexibility/value of TSW DLCs that customers have spent a great deal of money investing in. So yes - DTG should be easily forgiven for the delay... and in fact.... applauded... ;-)

    I am assuming that all rolling stock will (eventually) be given QuickDrive capability on all routes (as the announcement specifies driving any loco on ECW, as an example). This fundamentally changes the replayability of TSW, and finally brings value to stranded locos like the Class 33 and Class 52. I personally can't wait to get the Class 66 on Sand Patch Grade.... and the Bakerloo '72 stock on LIRR, and drive the TSW DB BR 155 out of the wonderful Cologne station....

    It would be great if the Livery Editor tool also gets applied to "original" TSW locos.... but as it stands, that would be a bonus on top of todays' very welcome news. *crosses fingers* ;-)
     
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  11. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    Yep. It’s annoying when you’re impatient like me, but if the end product is better, then take the time needed to get it right.
     
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  12. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    A better quality finished DLC for every release going forward may be more beneficial to the company than a strict release deadline in terms of overall sales and customer retention. I don’t have the figures to back that up but maybe OSD gave those figures to DTG as the worst offending DLC to date. Released on time to rapturous disdain and possibly performed really badly in sales numbers. There appears to have been a shift in DTG recently and they appear to be heading in the right direction with TSW2, and the delay in releasing it and the reason for that delay shows that. Since the initial shock of that first Q&A the vast majority of news about the release has been very good. Let’s hope that continues with DLC.
     
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  13. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    This is one reason DTG committing to a roadmap is a scary thought. DTG said they would release a roadmap with us a week before launch as part of their move to be more transparent with the community. I’m afraid that a lot of people won’t understand that things in development change and factors that are unexpected can arise. It was stated we would get a roadmap but I don’t think we were “Promised” and we have to accept things can change, especially with the world wide pandemic. I want them to share with us what we can expect but I also don’t want DTG to back themselves in a corner if something on the roadmap changes. I hope it’s a constantly evolving thing that can be very handy for everyone but I hope they are very clear that dates or projects on a roadmap aren’t set in stone and that things can change and if they do change I hope DTG will communicate with us as soon as they can and I hope the community can be understanding.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
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  14. TheTipsyRaccoon

    TheTipsyRaccoon Active Member

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    Is it weird that I’m currently more interested in a roadmap of things they’re fixing with TSW 2020. Knowing what’s on their radar for a fix will massively influence whether I’m going to sink more money into this company or not, because I want all my trophies on the predecessor first!
     
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  15. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Hi, they have announced that there isn’t any plans on fixing any bugs or supporting TSW and instead have put their focus on TSW2. I’m sorry if you haven’t received your trophy’s but I at least hope you enjoyed the content!
     
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  16. TheTipsyRaccoon

    TheTipsyRaccoon Active Member

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    Well DTG said to me in a ticket that they are working to ensure all games past, present and future live up to customers expectations and an entire scenario not being finishable absolutely fits the criteria of being less than I expect.
     
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  17. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I thought your post was referring to a different bug or bugs in general. The scenario was broken after a recent patch correct? I’ve heard about this, it’s on PC I believe. They have said they were looking into what happened and that I’m certain will be fixed as a scenario not working is a bad bug indeed. I imagine they have a full work day from home as they are working on it as well as getting ready for TSW2.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  18. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I missed this announcement about not fixing bugs - can you point me to a link....? Is there any evidence at all that DTG has ever said this explicitly?
     
  19. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Other then something like a scenario not functioning I don’t think we will see any bug fixes or updates to TSW. Number 2 and number 5 on the list.
    63DFE6A9-AD57-4954-B7E8-6588EEA8A263.jpeg
     
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  20. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Well, No.5 has now been ruled out, as locos and routes are now being transferred to TSW2 and made interoperable under the Scenario Planner. No. 2 refers to "development" work (changes to game design) - it doesn't refer to maintenance and bug fixing of products that continue to be on sale.

    Have you seen any announcements that explicitly refer to all bug fixing ending for TSW1? Anything at all? I have been monitoring this quite closely and very carefully.... and I am yet to see any such announcement. Nothing at all. Nada.

    There is a difference between you thinking something, and there being an announcement. So - where's the announcement? Or is it just your thinking... or your belief... but not supported by "an announcement".........?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
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  21. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the preserved routes are being made to use with the scenario planner in TSW2. Will we see bug fixes and updates added to the preserved collection other then bugs or updates that have to do specifically with the scenario planner? I don’t think so, as for TSW itself, number 2 clearly states “Will there be no further work on TSW and (or) dlc for it after the release of TSW2?”. “yes, all development will cease for TSW after the release of the class 20, which will be the last dlc for the old game.”. That seems pretty straight forward to me, and as I stated other then the work needed to make it compatible in TSW2, it seems like we won’t be receiving any bug fixes or updates to TSW1 or to the preserved collection unless something is needed to make it compatible with TSW2 features.
     
  22. richard cooper

    richard cooper Member

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    Would that not mean then, that the cement circle bug, caused by class 20 dlc, would just be ported over to Tsw2, so the scenario still cannot be completed. That seems pointless. Could any devs watching, confirm yay or nay.
     
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  23. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't seem like it to me. Because there is no evidence for it. If TSW 2020 and associated DLC remain on sale (for those that have not upgraded to TSW 2), then I am 100% sure that DTG will continue to maintain a published process to fix bugs in that software. If you visit this web page, which invites you to report bugs:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/reporting-a-technical-issue.23564/

    there is absolutely no indication of any exclusions for TSW 2020, now or in the future. In addition, there is nothing at all to indicate that TSW2020 is or will be excluded from the bug-reporting process here:

    https://dovetailgames.kayako.com/Tickets/Submit

    Which is odd, don't you think? Why would they want to appear to encourage people to report bugs for TSW2020 (and DLC for that title)... if they had absolutely no intention of ever acting on those bug reports...?

    Of course, if DTG withdraw TSW2020 and associated DLC, and they withdraw all of the legacy DLC not designed specifically for TSW 2 (everything made to date)..... then that would be a different matter. But I suspect that DTG will want to run a back cataolgue on all TSW DLC to date... and if they do, and they want to sell it on PlayStation Store, then they have to support it with a bug-fixing process. And that is why they have a published bug-fixing process for these DLCs. And why they will keep this published bug-reporting and fixing process.

    And - you will never ever see DTG publish any explicit statement excluding TSW DLC (pre TSW 2) from bug-reporting, while it continues to be on sale (which is basically.... forever).

    I would go further. Let's say a bug has not been resolved in one of the legacy DLCs that has been converted to TSW 2 - say..... a problem with the Class 31 scenario "Cement Circle". Then DTG will have to fix that bug twice - once for each version of the DLC.

    Maybe I have very good reason to belive what I believe. Or maybe I am just an optimist. ;-)

    You can think what you like, and things can seem to you any way you want them to seem to you - but this isn't based on anything that DTG has said explicitly. To be fair to DTG.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
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  24. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    if you skip to 16:14 in the video I provided it may say it more clearly for you.
    You can interpret what they stated anyway you wish. I interpret it to mean all development will cease on TSW2020. I’m not saying they won’t fix game breaking bugs such as the scenario on Sandpatch, which only appeared after a patch was put out, but if they aren’t releasing any more patches that could theoretically break the game then I don’t think we will see any updates past that. Your more then welcome to make of it what you wish ;).
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  25. Stockton Rails

    Stockton Rails Well-Known Member

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    After rereading this thread, I think I have questions now as well about whether DTG will, or won’t, support maintenance/bug fix work on TSW 1 routes moving forward- especially if those issues have serious impact on the functionality of a route (like not being able to complete it, etc). The question 2 above refers to future ‘work’ being done on TSW 1 routes, while the answer specifically refers to ceasing devel work... I’d say that leaves the door open, in my mind at least, in terms of what they’re going to do as far as maintenance/bug fixes are concerned with TSW 1 routes in the future.

    And in general, certainly for me, this is a pretty important question. I’d like to feel that DTG will stand behind their product and address any serious issues (with TSW 1 or otherwise) where the basic functionality of a route is broken.

    (DTG Protagonist- can you help clarify this for everyone? If you’re not 100% sure yourself, can you check with someone and get us a definitive answer on whether maintenance/bug fix work on TSW 1 routes will continue after TSW 2 is released? And if so, for how long? Thank you!)
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
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  26. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    If you read question number 2, it says “further work on TSW1 AND dlc” although worded in a weird way makes me believe work will cease on TSW1 AND content. A broken scenario is a big deal and they have stated they are working on a fix for it. TSW has a slim chance of a game breaking bug if they aren’t adding updates/patches but if it ever came up I’m sure they would fix it. So we won’t be getting fixes for things for bugs in general, such as the MSB bridge being to low for the DB204 and other bugs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  27. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    You are wrong, saying that they have to continue to support TSW dlc with bug fixes in order for it to remain on sale. You can still buy games and dlc that haven’t been supported for years on PSN. While the bug reporting process is still live on the forums for TSW, once TSW2 is released I’m almost certain it will be replaced by bug reporting for TSW2.
     
  28. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Okay, let's look at it from a different angle.

    You cannot provide any details of an announcement where DTG have explicitly stated that they will stop bug-fixing for TSW. You said they announced it... but it appears that you can't say where. Okay - so it is an idea that has come to you, by whatever means... and you can't substantiate it. Maybe you dreamed it....? The onus isn't on me to prove that they didn't announce this - I think you should prove that they announced it, because you said that they announced it.

    I think that you are being extremely unfair on DTG. In my opinion, it is extremely cynical to suggest that DTG will renege on its obligations to its platform partners, when it hasn't said that it would, and there is no evidence at all that they will break their agreements.

    You have tried DTG and found them guilty based on something that they haven't done, and something that they have not said that they will do (or not do). It just "seems" that way to you - even though there isn't a shred of evidence to support your statements.

    Are you really sure? Are you sure that it is reasonable for you to accuse DTG of ceasing all bug reporting and bug fixing activity for any of their PlayStation Compatible Products? Are you absolutely sure? Or is it all just hearsay...?

    I possibly just have more faith in DTG than you do. I think that they will do the right thing, and continue to do the right thing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  29. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    16:14 answers your question.
     
  30. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    If DTG continue to sell TSW DLC for owners of TSW 2020 (that do not own TSW 2)..... and they continue to sell it on PlayStation Store - then I am very very sure that you will not see an explicit written statement suggesting that they will drop bug-reporting processes and bug-fixing support for that software.

    In the highly unlikely event that DTG does clearly state that it will not provide any bug-fixing support for TSW, then that can be very easily challenged... and I suspect that you will find that such a decision would be very rapidly reversed.

    DTG certainly have not explicitly stated any intention to stop support for bug-reporting and bug-fixing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  31. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    What question? I asked you:

    -------------
    Are you really sure? Are you sure that it is reasonable for you to accuse DTG of ceasing all bug reporting and bug fixing activity for any of their PlayStation Compatible Products? Are you absolutely sure? Or is it all just hearsay...?
    -------------

    The video doesn't answer my question to you at all. I am asking you if you are sure about your accusation.....?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  32. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I’m really questioning your knowledge on this subject. For example, you can buy Tony Hawk Pro Skater 5 on PSN. If you do your research you will see that the servers were shut down for this game, while a huge part is multiplayer there is offline content and no updates have been released for the game in a long time. Are you under the impression that a company can’t sell DLC for a game unless it is supported? That’s also untrue. You can buy dlc from 2014 on PSN that is obviously no longer supported. From what you are saying here and from other threads of you mentioning legal actions against DTG for breaking the terms on PSN. Let me tell you the difference between facts and believing.
     
  33. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Are you really sure? Are you sure that it is reasonable for you to accuse DTG of ceasing all bug reporting and bug fixing activity for any of their PlayStation Compatible Products? Are you absolutely sure? Or is it all just hearsay...?
     
  34. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    As a reminder as to what you wrote and what I’m answering. If DTG Protagonist gets a chance to answer, I’m sure it will save us both some time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  35. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Are you really sure? Are you sure that it is reasonable for you to accuse DTG of ceasing all bug reporting and bug fixing activity for any of their PlayStation Compatible Products? Are you absolutely sure? Or is it all just hearsay...?
     
  36. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    16:14 answers your question. You just have to hit the play button and move the little circle over.
     
  37. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    The video gives absolutely no indication that DTG intend to cease bug-reporting and bug-fixing support for TSW and TSW DLCs, and/or TSW DLCs ported to TSW2. None. None at all.

    In fact (and facts are important) - the video contains evidence contrary to your assertions at 1:13:00 (minute 73), where Matt makes it clear that continuous improvements to older routes, including certainty over bug-fixing is...... explicitly committed to ("YES"). I have no idea how you have managed to make an interpretation with the opposite meaning. It's truly bizarre.

    You can't provide any evidence of an announcement. You refuse to say that you are sure about your accusation. So, my interpretation of your lack of response is that:

    - there was no annoucement to suggest that DTG would drop bug-reporting and bug-fixing support for TSW; and,
    - you are not sure about your accusation, and you refuse to re-assert it for this reason.

    It's okay to not be sure. If you think something, and if something "seems" to you to be something, that is fine. Just don't say that it is a fact supported by an announcement, when there is no such announcement.
     
  38. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    As revealed in the last stream, the preserved collection trains are being integrated into new routes as service layers in timetable mode. On top of that the preserved collection DLC will be available to buy for customers (some of whom will not even own TSW2020) as TSW2 DLC. These two facts make the preserved content essentially “new” TSW2 content and must be included in bug reporting and fixing for TSW2.

    I don’t know where that leaves content in TSW2020 with regards to ongoing bug fixing. I’m going to assume it’ll be down to how much of a fuss customers are prepared to make over any specific bug. It has been shown that direct action can result in bug fixes being carried out, namely the 155 and 47 bugs, and that was required when full support was there. Nobody really wants to see that again but bugs that seriously affect gameplay will still require attention until they are all ironed out, such as the scenarios that were broken by the update for the Class 20 on TVL. Once no new content is being released for TSW2020, no more new bugs should appear, so clearing all the big ones sooner rather than later would be a good idea for DTG. After that there will be little that needs attention.

    Up to this point DTG have not used the words “bug” or “bugs” in any sentence relating to ceasing development for TSW2020, so what Plastic Pal is saying is correct. Sam has answered questions here when asked to clarify what was meant by the statements in that first stream and has always steered well clear of those words. They haven’t explicitly stated that bug fixing will cease.
     
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  39. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Yep - that's pretty much my understanding, explicitly with respect to bug-reporting and bug-fixing.

    Plus - the context of that first Q&A stream is very important. It immediately followed an exercise conducted by DTG Protagonist to scan for "remaining issues" with TSW ahead of the TSW2 release. The vast majority of these issues appeared to me to be new feature requests, ranging from route extensions to PIS on stations, working level crossings.... basically a lot of things that would require more/new development work. The only two things that stuck out (to me) as bug-fix reports were the Class 47 (now fixed) and ATC on NEC (not yet fixed).

    Without doubt, DTG Protagonist and DTG were a little bit exposed by the "outstanding issues" exercise, as it had the potential to raise expectations - and minute 16 of that first Q&A stream was (in my view) used to shut down the WIBNI feedback that led to expectations for further development of the TSW specification, including the specification of TSW DLCs. That is very different to maintaining a commitment to fixing existing specified features that do not function, or found to not function, and the commitment to continue to do that is in minute 73, with the caveat that there needs to be better communication on what constitutes a bug, and what constitutes "not a bug" (something that actually works as intended, but not as desired by some players).

    DTG certainly have not explicitly stated any intention to stop support for bug-reporting and bug-fixing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
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  40. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    7066AD0E-4748-4F10-B17C-EFDDE13E3F4A.jpeg
    After listening to the 73 minute mark (1 hour and 13 minutes). It is clear to me that they will continue supporting TSW2 add ons after release and communicate more with the community about what’s being fixed and what needs to be fixed. Matt talks about Rivet games having a great success with the tools. The question your referencing is number 46. Which clearly doesn’t have anything to do with TSW2020. This video was also published on June 11th, before we received the patch fixing the class 46 on NTP and was more then a week before the class 20 dlc released to which they have already answered all work on TSW2020 will cease.It’s clear that they won’t plan on fixing bugs whether they specifically said “bugs” or not.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  41. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Let’s take a look at what it means in the longer version. I am really glad I could help you understand this subject better today, and I am almost certain I’ll get the pleasure of doing so again. 9E1E28A1-99FA-4FA2-96D1-EFF7F3C190B0.jpeg
     
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  42. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Well, it isn't clear to me. If at any point DTG clearly state that they will no longer accept any bug reports for TSW, and that they will not fix bugs, no matter how bad they are... then you will be proven to be correct. Until then, there is absolutely nothing to support your accusation.

    We differ in our understandings on what is a fact, and what is an alternative fact - and that's perfectly okay. But here is a question for you.....

    Do you actually want DTG to drop bug-reporting and bug-fixing support for TSW DLCs..... including TSW DLCs that are converted for use in TSW2......?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  43. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    We can agree to disagree. To answer your question, yes. I am 100% behind DTG to stop updating TSW2020 and dlc and leaving it in its current state (After the fix for the Sandpatch Scenario of course as it’s a major game breaking bug) and moving all of their attention towards TSW2 and making it so TSW2 and all future dlc don’t ship with broken safety systems, or other popular bugs that went unaddressed by DTG in TSW2020. They have now acknowledged they can address the issue with the community. They undoubtedly made mistakes in TSW2020 and I’m all for all their efforts going towards TSW2 to turn that around in game and in the community and TSW2 seems to be a much better foundation for these things. Judging from our conversation today and from what I have seen in other threads, you want bug support to continue for TSW2020? If yes, can I ask why?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  44. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Ah. That explains quite a lot.... Gosh....! ;-)

    Thank you for being up front with that answer. Do you work for DTG as a developer? Or are you one of those rare ideal customers that actually wants DTG to reduce the support that it gives to its current products......?

    I don't understand - why should the line be drawn where you want it, but only for a particular DLC that you are interested in? Surely you would be okay with DTG just moving on..... right....? In fact - why bother fixing any new bugs in TSW2... maybe they should focus their efforts on developing TSW3.....? Can you see where this argument goes....?

    The recently broken Class 31 Cement Circle scenario must be fixed. Maybe your Sand Patch one must be fixed as well... even though that entire DLC has actually been remastered for TSW2 (presumably without the bug you are referring to.....)........And frankly, there are significant QoL fixes (for novices) that should be applied to the first three scenarios on RSN.... if RSN continues to be sold. And there are very serious out of boundary issues on TVL. And the safety systems on NEC.... there are still a few nasty bugs that require attention.

    Fair question. The answer... broadly speaking... is yes. I am of the belief that there probably are not many serious bugs to fix.... but if and when they are found (or created), that they should be fixed.... if the product is still on sale and actively marketed. Even if they are bugs that you personally don't care about. But not necessarily indefinitely.... But immediately ruling out bug fixing in TSW is simply not acceptable. And I am fine with DTG's stance, because they have never ruled out bug-reporting and bug-fixing for TSW (TSW2020).

    I also don't like the application of a blanket idea, and the potential for it to creep... so that TSW2020 DLCs that get converted for use in TSW2 would also be "frozen in amber"... even if there are critical bugs in them... when they should be fixed. You have to remember that DLC can get broken by changes to other DLCs.....
     
  45. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    There is a third way, of course.

    If DTG want to continue to sell DLC as legacy DLC, with absolutely no intention to maintain it, then they could do this in a reasonable way. It would be a bit upsetting for current customers.... but future customers could get some protection if DTG simp[ly clearly marked the DLCs with:

    "This DLC is not supported, and may contain defects that make it difficult or impossible to use. By buying this DLC, you agree that there is no expectation that the Publisher (DTG) will take any actions to remedy any current or future faults with the DLC. You buy this product entirely at your own risk, fully in the knowledge that it might not be functional."

    But it's not a very iconic disclaimer, so I don't think it will get past the marketing people.
     
  46. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Well I’m not surprised on your stance at all. Your stuck in the thought that TSW2020 should be supported until it’s the game that is to your in my opinion “ridiculous” standards. You seem like the one to complain if a bridge is to low for the DB204 and threaten to take legal action. DTG have showed “most” every DLC before release and we have plenty of resources to check before we make a purchase. To expect the route to be “Fixed” post release is foolish, if not a major game breaking bug. I’ll upgrade to TSW2 for the routes and features alone. Other then game breaking bugs if I receive updates and bug fixes for TSW2 and post release content I consider that a bonus. “Consumerism down the toilet”. It’s more like I’m just someone who enjoyed the routes and dlc I paid for and am more then happy to get behind TSW2 and DTG making a better product for us.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
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  47. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Not really. I have very rarely pressed for bugs to be fixed... unless they are really bad. I didn't complain about the DB BR 204 because I did not buy that DLC - although in principle it was interesting to note that the Chatham and Stirling Offices found it difficult to do very basic wheel/rail interface QA....... even for the very first "third party" product..... they didn't bother to make sure that it was right....

    If a DLC is broken, then yes, I expect it to be fixed, even if that DLC is not one of your personal favourites.

    But it's okay for you to have extremely low standards. And thank you for making that clear. I expect, therefore, that we won't be seeing you complaining about anything that you see in TSW or TSW2, because as you have said - you believe that you have enough information before you purchase... and once that purchase has happened, that you choose to not exercise your rights about products being fit for purpose. And that's great - for you.

    Other people do not consider fixing a broken product as a "bonus". But I might be in the "ridiculous" minority on that point. Or maybe not.
     
  48. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    To accept a route in any shoddy state is more foolish. Most bugs are not game breaking bugs. You could include a scenario that can’t be finished as a non-game breaking bug because other scenarios can be finished. All bugs should be acknowledged and where possible fixes enabled for them. Some bugs have to be accepted because there is no way to fix them all but to say only game breaking bugs should be fixed is setting a very low standard for DTG to live up to.
     
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  49. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Yet I don’t have low standards just because I don’t whine about using the safety systems on NEC even though I spent a tremendous time with the route and enjoyed it, should I be upset even though the experience I expected and paid for lived up to my expectations even with the safety systems broken. You have just picked DTG and the TSW2020 forums to excercise your consumer rights movement against a company and game that isn’t in your view the perfect consumer product. I don’t think your standards for this game match the reality of DTG or TSW.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  50. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    What is your example of a route in a “shoddy state”? A scenario is a core part of the game. If a dlc comes with 5 scenarios and only 4 are working that is a big problem and needs to be fixed. You left out my prior sentence on that quote.
    Don’t buy something you won’t enjoy as is. Bug fixes don’t happen for legal reasons. They happen when the developer can fully understand and communicate with the community to fix the problem. DTG failed at that for things such as the safety systems. I don’t think anyone is arguing that but to expect it to be fixed is foolish.
     

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