1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

General Thoughts On Tsw And Developments

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Apr 27, 2020.

  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    2,487
    Do you really want to see a Steam engine in TSW's current state? Like seriously? I have no doubt it would look and perform awful with all the steam and smoke particles.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,616
    Likes Received:
    1,602
    I believe Matt's reasoning is that steam is hard to DRIVE in any decent recreation and it would be difficult to balance what someone who wants realism would expect and someone who is a beginner would expect
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  3. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2018
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    345
    We always come back to the same problem. Train driving simulator or game
     
  4. MillerPC

    MillerPC Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    189
    It doesn't matter who expects what. It should be made as close to the real thing because this is train "SIM" world. It's job is to simply simulate the real world train operation. If you remove things from a sim, its no longer a sim. At this point, can you even call TSW a simulator with the amount of missing items? I don't think so.
     
  5. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,616
    Likes Received:
    1,602
    Well it kind of does... If you make things too complex people just won't bother, not that all the issues we do have don't cause that to happen anyway..
     
  6. PlatChap

    PlatChap Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2017
    Messages:
    302
    Likes Received:
    502
    I wouldn't mind seeing something like a Pro-Range of locomotives similar to TS2020 for TSW. Something marketed and produced as the full experience with as many systems modeled as possible. I feel like that way you can tap into your audience looking for a simulation experience instead of a casual arcade driving experience.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,113
    Likes Received:
    1,949
    Really though, when does it stop becoming a simulator? Can you drive a train for example from Darlington to Saltburn with station stops, safety features applicable to the era, decent physics (they seem so to me), realistic sounds, operating the controls as they appear in reality? To me that is as close to simulating the experience of a train driver in 1989 on that particular route, within the confines of sitting in an armchair in 2020, as I am likely to get.

    As for steam I think TSW will be poorer if we never see steam, which personally I think we will. In TS1 we have had both advanced and standard loco's so I cannot see why that would not be possible in TSW.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
    • Like Like x 3
  8. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    1,380
    Likes Received:
    2,668
    It’s both. The two things are not mutually exclusive. TSW is a clearly a simulator but also a very accessible one that caters for all levels of skill and interest.

    Driving a steam train correctly with all the simultaneous parameters to control is beyond most people, certainly to start with. Simulation of every aspect of it would be great only for a very small number of people. Simplified controls would be accessible to everyone, but not satisfy that small number of people who want the full experience. Having a way to include both would be the goal. You can then use it as a simulator, a partial simulator or a game. As people get more proficient they can progress from simple to complicated at their own pace, but have them face complicated from the start and many would give up.

    That means refunds and no further sales of steam locos, they cease to be financially viable, and are no longer produced. If “simulator snobs” want steam in TSW, they must accept all users of TSW being able to access them, and that includes casual users who just want fun and to experience the glory of steam locos, otherwise everybody loses out.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  9. fabdiva

    fabdiva Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
    Messages:
    166
    Likes Received:
    218
    Having a pro line makes sense. I do think in hindsight going UE was probably not the best decision, especially from a modding viewpoint given UE will not let you reuse assets from other content. If DTG had the time and resources to create their own engine and the market was big enough for a return on that investment (which I don't think it is), then I think they'd have gone down that route.

    Also the more hard core the sim, the less people are willing to play. As someone said as the Manuals get thicker, the market gets smaller. I think DTG are trying to cover all bases, they could go hard core, but I suspect the lower sales may require either less content or higher prices (Look at hard cord Flight Sim stuff, FSLabs is over £100 for one aircraft) they could go arcade, which while fun would annoy the sim crowd. I mean the other way they could combine the two markets is Densha De Go.
     
  10. khalidaliishmail

    khalidaliishmail Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2019
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    44
    Having the ability to select between say "Simple" or "Simulation" modes in the options somewhere should alleviate the difficulty problem. For example in "simple" mode the driver wouldn't have to worry about opening or closing the cylinder drain cocks which could be automated for instance. Both modes of course would have an AI fireman as its unrealistic and unreasonable to expect the driver to both fire and drive a locomotive. However the driver could still interfere at their discretion. The ability to be a fireman with an AI driver could also be a feature.

    Also, although steam locomotives are more challenging to drive and it's an art to getting the best performance out of one, I think trying to properly pilot a 747 or other airliner and trying to understand its huge array of onboard systems is much more challenging, and that doesn't seem to have deterred flight sim enthusiasts.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. raptorengineer

    raptorengineer Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    38
    i wondered if DTG could've have the ability to take part FSX game and make train sim world on fsx engine? yes yes i know MSTS 2 and it scraped.
     
  12. SaMa1

    SaMa1 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    89
    I have been a strong advocate of wheel slip since the beta. Traction management is still the biggest lacking issue in this game as a simulator.

    For a simple test: Drive the SD40 against a buffer and start to apply force. You can push the invincible buffer with full tractive effort at the maximum current forever without slightest wheel slipping in any condition..

    Second test is to only apply locomotive brakes with heavy consist when driving downhill and expect the consist to try to push the locomotive off the tracks. With the older locos with pneumatic brakes you should be able to totally lock the locomotive wheels as there is no advanced traction control.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  13. Iskra

    Iskra Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    67
    I've had wheelslip on the 31's/37's when accelerating hard and most recently when breaking hard on the EMU on the East Coastway. I don't think you get as much wheelslip as you should in real life, but it is definitely there.
     
  14. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    2,487
    One thing I’d definitely enjoy is driving the 377 on ECW during drizzle or rain, as Electrostars are very prone to wheel slip during poor adhesion. It’d make driving a lot more enjoyable.
     
  15. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2019
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    373
    Are you able to take a video or screen capture? I’ve just tried right now and found absolutely nothing, not even the slightest bit of wheel slip/wheel slide even though it was heavy rain and very wet. Tried everything including whacking it to full power and heavy braking. I don’t know if the gap in the conductor rail at certain locations is giving some people the illusion that there is wheelslip/wheelslide because power/dynamic braking shuts off instantly and comes back on a second later. But this isn’t wheelslip/wheelslide.

    It’s quite a distinct high frequency sound. In cab, you should see the sander light automatically light up whenever sand is being deployed which can sometimes be constant or flashing continuously if it’s extremely bad railhead conditions.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. deki32

    deki32 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2018
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    208
    As long as we can notch 8 up a 2.0% gradient from standstill and have no wheel slip, i really don’t see any simulation in that regard. I am talking about CSX Heavy Haul with its monstrously long trains. Looks rather silly at times. Cheers
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Iskra

    Iskra Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    67
    I drive using the HUD and a wheelslip icon even appeared down on the thing in the right hand corner. It had a wheel and two red lines either side of it I believe.

    I normally use F12 and Ctrl to take a screenshot without the HUD how would I do it for it to include the HUD for you?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Snek

    Snek Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2020
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    74
    Notice the sparks on the wheels and the red markings on the speedometer.
    It doesn't have anything to do with weather tho.
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,304
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Whilst DTG themselves have stated, it isnt completely modelled with the various determining factors. There is wheelslip. Ive had it on numerous trains. There are also youtube clips. Anthony Pecoraro has a short clip on youtube that demonstrates it pretty clearly.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    2,541
    Likes Received:
    2,956
    You mean this...?
    ;)
     
    • Like Like x 5
  21. Louis-MTA NYCTA

    Louis-MTA NYCTA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2020
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    283
    Very nice clip. I never knew such a detailed game mechanic existed until now. I always knew TSW had wheel slip but I did not know that is also gives out sparks. Does this work on all routes or only select routes, And does this work in specific weather conditions?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    2,541
    Likes Received:
    2,956
    All routes. Not weather dependent yet.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  23. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2018
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    345
    But not all locos?
     
  24. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    2,541
    Likes Received:
    2,956
    Yes, all locos.
     
  25. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    1,878
    Likes Received:
    1,702
    I have had wheel slip on quite a few of the loco's now, not that I am purposefully trying to create it but it is present.
     
  26. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Guest

    its there but not well done. the big thing is rain/slip.
     
  27. Juxen

    Juxen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    184
    Likes Received:
    324
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  28. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    2,487
    The thing is, he’s probably using a newer version of UE4 as well as lots of plugins which probably wouldn’t be supported in TSW. Also, I doubt it’d look or perform that good in TSW.

    No one said it was impossible to make a steam engine using UE4, it’s more the fact that how it would look, perform and sound in TSW’s current state.

    I’m going to take a wild guess and say Steam for TSW in its current state, and current version, would just not be a good combination.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. khalidaliishmail

    khalidaliishmail Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2019
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    44
    Releasing the editor and improving TSWs state so it is appropriate for simulating steam should among the priorities going forward.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  30. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    777
    Likes Received:
    1,455
    There is no wheelslip. Fact.

    What there is, is when you open the throttle too quickly and the ammeter goes into the yellow or red (loco dependent) it cuts the power and gives the red lines in the HUD.

    That is not wheelslip, nor is it variable adhesion. It’s a simple binary ‘ammeter goes here - cut power’
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  31. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    2,541
    Likes Received:
    2,956
    It is wheelslip. Look at the wheels.
     
  32. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2019
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    373
    It is wheelslip. But it is a very basic form where you are just overloading the traction motors particularly when you’re setting off from stationary and you’re a heavy train (I.e. freight). I’ve not seen it myself but I use console so I wonder if it’s just on PC.

    Variable adhesion is a whole new level. Also, braking is the more important of the two parts because braking distances increase so driving style needs to change whereas the acceleration is just aesthetics and, if need be, decreasing power until the wheelslip settles down but nothing too hard. Plus you can integrate the auto-sander system on the newer trains.

    Here’s a video of an electrostar encountering wheelslip. You can hear the distinctive high frequency sounds from the traction motors as it struggles to accelerate as well as the juddering and vibrations.

    (not my video)
     
  33. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    2,487
    Currently wheel-slip in TSW is very basic. It can be achieved by maxing the throttle out unrealistically or disabling certain traction motors.

    The most obvious and common form of wheel-slip, caused by poor adhesion, is not present in game. Certainly not by any of the weather presents anyway.
     
  34. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    777
    Likes Received:
    1,455
    In my eyes it’s not wheelslip.

    A binary yes/no outcome, irrespective of any other inputs or environmental factors (weather, season, train weight etc) that simply cuts power and shows sparks from the wheels when a pre-determined power setting is reached is NOT wheelslip.

    How much more slack are people going to cut DTG with this game? It’s 3 years old and as a simulator, it STILL isn’t as good as the game it was intended to replace. I like TSW & despite myself there are elements of DTG that are very good but it’s their lack of quality control, or their willingness to release sub-par content that I find extremely frustrating. By all accounts their latest US TS1 release is exactly the same. Flashes of excellence dragged down by half-arsed quality control.

    As for TSW, it would seem that nothing substantial is going to change until they update the engine. With every DLC release that task gets bigger and bigger. Is it ever actually going to happen?

    FWIW, I totally agreed with ian1991 on page 1.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
    • Like Like x 3
  35. rabid

    rabid Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    74
    I imagine DtG will upgrade to the latest stable game engine when they bring out their yearly iteration, i.e. TSW 2021.

    It is possible that they are waiting on this major update to "unlock" other capabilities like better performing smoke and steam depiction, and maybe even a more customisable editor. They are keeping their cards very close to their chest, but they are not a big budget AAA studio so this is perhaps why progress is a little slow.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  36. Mariano

    Mariano New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    17
    Unfortunately, I have to agree with most comments here. I was so hyped when "CSX heavy haul" was released, i would say "finally, the definitive train simulation i always wanted with good graphics", and... I was wrong.
    It feels more like an arcade game, not a challeging simulation. Dissapointing.

    There are 2 types of game companies (maybe more), but the two main types are: the ones which put love and real passion in games, and the ones who develop games just for the money.
    Releasing new DLCs every 4/5 months, which add no other than new scenery to the game, is not what i call passion or love...
    I am still playing this, but I´ve lost all hopes here...
     
    • Like Like x 5
  37. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    777
    Likes Received:
    1,455
    Let’s hope you’re right. I can’t see these core issues getting fixed any other way.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  38. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2019
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    211
    The simple fact is that Dovetail operates on a basis of quantity over quality. I have seen this for several years now. As long as people keep buying their monthly DLC and making them money, it seems that everything else is secondary to them. Any passion a dev has for their work on this game seems to only allowed if it fits into their timetable for releases.

    Has Dovetail ever delayed anything to ensure that the quality of their work is up to spec? Honest question. I still haven't forgotten how disastrous the launch of this game was. They had a mere two week beta, which is never enough time to fix any major issues (and surprise surprise, it wasn't). Most insulting thing about that though was that you had to buy TS2017 to get into the TSW beta. :D So basically, it was just a cash grab designed to double as a way of generating more hype.

    Glassdoor shows that many devs at Dovetail feel this way too. Consistently poor decisions from upper management stifle creativity and quality.

    You want things to change? Stop buying their stuff. Until they see that people are holding off buying new content for this game until insert feature here is added, not much will change because they have no reason to change it. The people calling the shots at this company don't seem to care at all about the quality of their products. Only how much money they can make.
     
    • Like Like x 13
  39. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    777
    Likes Received:
    1,455
    Essentially, that’s where I’m at. I’d bought everything up to and including the SoCal shunter and since then nothing.

    I know I speak for myself, but I just find TSW just so boring. It’s painfully repetitive, has no soul and no atmosphere. Everytime I load it up (as I did today) it was back off again within 20 minutes. The avalanche of bugs and annoyances drive me away every time. These now start the minute the damn thing loads, with me having to sign in to bloody Dovetail Live for literally the millionth time, then sit waiting for that pointless mastery nonsense to update.

    I’m finished with buying anything until I see some actual core improvements and new features. As someone said above, all we get now is a variation in scenery for £25. It’s still poorly lit, still has no dynamic weather (in fact, nothing dynamic at all), still has rubbish sound, still doesn’t pump out anything like the performance that it should, still has poor shadow draw distance and scenery popping into focus as you go...and on and on it goes. None of this is going to change whilst the game is built on this version of UE4. I’m also absolutely certain that if we’re ever to see an editor, it will not be until the game has been dragged kicking and screaming into the 2020’s.

    As you said, it’s money where my mouth is time and for now, I’m done.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
    • Like Like x 12
  40. deki32

    deki32 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2018
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    208
    Welcome to the club i guess. And to answer the post above, i am pretty sure that Dovetail would probably shutdown TSW before actually listening and doing what their customers demand. I don’t want to repeat the endless list of issues still present after so many years, but it really shows how this company works aswell as the general customers we have here. Although it sounds logical, that is actually the polar opposite of how DTG operate. I will always keep FSW as a shining example.

    Instead of opening up to third parties when the game came to a crawling stop, they just simply shut it down and moved on. That would also happen to TSW in no time, no matter what certain forum users or DTG try to brainwash us into. As long as the number of clueless people that just simply buy TSW dlc for the sake of buying it stays in the green, nothing will change. That is why TSW still exists. We are a small minority, and DTG is always calculating. Mark my word guys. Cheers
     
    • Like Like x 5
  41. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2019
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    211
    Lol good point. Well I wouldn't see the loss of TSW development as a big deal anyway. If this game really has this little potential, and Dovetail truly just does not care to make it better, it doesn't deserve to continue being profitable to them.

    With the loss of FSX though, the question is if Dovetail could afford to kill this game off. The only remaining money maker at that point would be TS1, which they have milked for over a decade now, and is starting to become quite dated. I mean come on, it isn't like the fishing games bring in the big bucks.

    More than anything, I just hope a new developer comes in and starts to make a proper train simulator. The competition will either force Dovetail to do better, or put them out of business. I'd be fine with either at this point.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  42. Mariano

    Mariano New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    17
    Until no other company develop another train simulator with a higher level of realism/graphics/gameplay/etc, I will be imprisoned in this game. If there is no competition, people get what´s available, and that´s it.

    I hope there will be a better rival for TSW, and that situation will make it "wake up" and trigger new enchancements.
    Trains are what i like the most in transportation and simulation, and i have always been dissapointed with all the games, in terms of "simulation, realism, and graphics", with no exception.
    Now we have TSW, using UE4 (where everything looks crappy, except for the train models), the one which is closest to realism above all the rest, and after years of expansions, there is still more and more things they could do to improve it...
    Money power guys, I cant do anything about it and its dissapointing.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  43. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,113
    Likes Received:
    1,949
    More hyperbole, you aren't imprisoned! You could actually not purchase it or any DLC, wouldn't that be radical! And there is competition, Trainz, Run8, etc.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  44. Juxen

    Juxen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    184
    Likes Received:
    324
    I'm playing the heck out of Open Rails and Run8, as I can find more variety and better physics than anything in TSW. The graphics are pretty, but if I can't go more than 20 miles on a route, then it's worthless.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  45. jetgriff

    jetgriff Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2019
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    226
    I expected too much..
    if you count wanting a decent length route with the means to change timetables, stock etc, to add scenery, new routes regularly.
    Not just "editing tools" which we will never see I fear anyway.
    I hoped for the same tools to create new routes as TSW use, after all they must exist because they have been used to create the routes we have.
    The whole "game" "sim" whatever you call it has stalled and now is on a downward spiral and gathering so much downward speed it can never be saved.
    We and they gave it a fair go, and failed, so options? Back to TrainSim 2020.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  46. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    777
    Likes Received:
    1,455
    For me at least, TS2020 with 3rd party Locos & enhancements etc is simply in a different league to TSW. That remains the case even with it becoming more and more unstable and constantly dumping.

    DTG still sell that game as a going concern, but there’s something fundamentally wrong with it that has recently got worse (look how many posts regarding OOM errors have popped up in the last 2 months across community forums). They don’t acknowledge it, or seemingly have any intention to do anything about it.

    It’s ridiculous that I/we expected TSW to be any different.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  47. UnlimitedMagic

    UnlimitedMagic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Messages:
    789
    Likes Received:
    927
    My local station
     
  48. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,304
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Learnings all part of the fun. Re Steam engines
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  49. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2017
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    441
    I sometimes wonder if (well, wish) a company with real enthusiasm and know what they're doing to make THE most immersive, realistic Train Sim would buy the whole TSW program from DTG so it can made into the simulator it really can be whilst DTG can concentrate on other things like their Fishing or move onto something else new....
     
    • Like Like x 1
  50. Teflon490

    Teflon490 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2020
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    6
    Bugs Catching Simulator. That would be appropriately ironic I think.
     

Share This Page