Horseshoe Curve - Definitive Feedback Thread

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by chieflongshin, Apr 7, 2022.

  1. pveezy

    pveezy Well-Known Member

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    I never looked into HPT on Sherman Hill because the trains never really felt overpowered so I just assumed they are reasonable. But I can look at them when I am at home.
     
  2. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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  3. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I just went into HSC and SH to look at the weight of intermodal trains and found that Skyhook is using 2653 tons for all their IMs while in SH DTG used 8226 tons, which is probably closer to the correct weight. Guess Skyhook needs to up the train weights in an update.
     
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  4. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Either Skyhook's containers are empties, or they're shipping loads of down pillows.
     
  5. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Remember how this release was on Tuesday, so they can fix stuff by the end of the week? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

    (And yes, I know it's Easter holiday, which makes it even funnier they chose this week to test the concept)
     
  6. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    100% completely agree with you !!!
    Initially, i really think the ES44AC utilizes SMH SD70ACe overall physic (especially the dyn braking physic) where you can fine tune it depends on the grade, train weight and the air brake application. What we've got here is they utilizes SPG/CCB AC4400CW physic instead, which got too powerful retarding effect on their dynamics (even at lowest application).
    And yes indeed, the Intermodal Train is need way more weight on HSC, oh come on, 2653 tons, seems like all the shipping containers are empty. The ethanol trains also need the same treatment, last time i checked, the westbound ethanol train also weight about the same with the IM train.
     
  7. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    The west bound tank trains are empty so the weight used is fairly close to a string of empty tankers. East bound, full trains, are 7893 tons.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2022
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  8. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    Aahhh i see, new information to me. Maybe i'll try the eastbound ethanol service the next time. Cheers
     
  9. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

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    I ran a 6500ton EB manifest last night, 38G Chicago - Abrams. I was expecting more bite from the dynamics and nearly lost it heading downhill around the curve. Wound up getting the brakes blended with a 15 pound reduction. It was nail biting - and fun!
     
  10. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    How fast are you when cresting the summit at Gallitzin Tunnel?
    I'm running an eastbound coal train, 10,000+ tons, 4 ES44AC (3 units upfront and 1 unit rear-DPU). Cresting the summit at 15 mph, dynamics at around 25-37% blended with 10 pound reduction in air. Running fine, not exeeding 20-21 mph along the grade.
     
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  11. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

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    I was going perhaps a bit too fast! When I hit a summit, I like to be well below the speed limit. I then set the distance counter with the idea of remaining on the throttle in notch one as long as possible, ideally until the rear has crested. I want to keep the train stretched out as long as possible before I start to bunch it up with dynamics going down grade. I realize having DPU units on the rear somewhat changes this strategy. I’d be very interested in hearing from someone knowledgeable about how it should be done.

    This time, I pushed it a little too far and counted on the dynamics to save me, but I had waited too long!
     
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  12. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    I saw a YouTube video about coal train operation down the Saluda Grade by Southern Railway & Norfolk Southern Co. When the front end of the train is cleared the summit, the engineer still apply some throttle, but he switched the DP units to idle to maintain a good stretch and keep the coupler strain as low as possible (preventing form knuckle break i think). If only we could control the DP units separately like IRL, would be nice experience.
     
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  13. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

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    I suppose I could just turn the banking button off when wanted then rear to idle. It might make the downhill run easier to blend as well. Bunch up with a bit of dynamic, apply a small reduction and then blend in dynamic as needed.
     
  14. bartolomaeusz

    bartolomaeusz Well-Known Member

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    294 Chicago-E-Rail (Manifest) = cannot insert Reverser handle.
     
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  15. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    With HP/T below 2, the heavy EB services are tricky downhill.
    A really big speed gap is very recommended, on the summit :) before descending.

    It may be that the HP overkill for the WB intermodals makes it seem dynamic are too aggressive, but is actually OK.
    & What is the optimal speed for dynamic efficiency?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2022
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  16. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    How are you reducing the HpT? Decoupling the tail DPUs or are you not switching on banking comms?
     
  17. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Do we know if DTG and/or Skyhook have acknowledged the train loads/physics are wrong? I haven’t seen any input from them in the thread, though that’s not entirely unusual these days. Better to fix it now than have to confront the issue months down the road, at which point they will start bleating that changing the physics will destroy the timetable and rejigging it will affect achievements, etc.
     
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  18. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    I am not reducing anything. Some services are designed this way, eg 10k ton coal trains hauled by 4 GEVOs :)
    But you can easily do it as you described (MU/DPU custom config). BR o7
     
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  19. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    Ohh ok thanks. I thought this was on the "empty" intermodals. Will have to try the loaded coal.
     
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  20. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Guess you can't expect them to get all the train symbols correct, 294 is an intermodal.
     
  21. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to point out a very much welcome and positive bit of feedback that I've just found.....

    I have the ES44AC in the Livery Designer for something I'm starting on and I can confirm that you can now paint and apply layers below the solebar level (As we call it in the UK) so the fuel tanks and the areas around the couplers and snowploughs along with the steps at each end are all paintable or can have layers applied. The numberboards can also be used and have layers put on them. This will be great for some of the heritage unit liveries that have stripes that go below solebar level.


    I'm thinking this is the first loco to have all of this functionality included in LD as I can only think of the numberboards being usable previously on some locos.

    I've not tried the HSC GP38-2 in LD as yet so not sure if it's just the ES44AC or both the locos that get this new treatment/upgrade.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2022
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  22. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    Only on gen 8 consoles. The gen 9 console experience is the same as PC with just one notch less draw distance.
     
  23. w2sjw

    w2sjw Active Member

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    I'd have to say after 72 hours of play. I'm just a slight bit disappointed with the sounds of the ES44AC's under load.
    This video (at about 1:20 in from the start) really shows how these guys sound when pulling a load. I also have the NS Lehigh Line in multiple areas I travel through for work, so I do get to hear the GEVO in person quite regularly. Hopefully, one of the members at TSC will do a mod like the one that was done for all the SPG units.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2022
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  24. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Well-Known Member

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    Yeahh, the GEVOS definitely needs more love for the sound.
    The one in the game didn't have that distinctive GEVOS low rumble & bassy tone. Also i didn't hear any traction motor whining sound present at the moment. And where's the woop? I maxed the volume and cannot confirm that there is the distinctive GE whoop sound from the compressor.
     
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  25. DarkWolf

    DarkWolf Active Member

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    Having completed a few end to end runs, I kinda like this route. Like SPG but a little faster and more interesting. It looks good and performance is good, worst place I've seen fps-wise is the north end of Juniata yard. There you get drops kinda like Cheyenne and Laramie yards on SMH. I've seen a few scenery anomalies and it could use some more trackside bric-a-brac in places but hopefully those things will get polished out.

    I'd agree that locomotive audio seems to be the achilles heel.

    The GP-38 sounds good when giving it throttle but the dynamic brake noise has a tendency to start stuttering and changing pitch which makes it hard to listen to on a long downhill run. (The CSX GP-38 has the same issue only worse and also effects the engine noise when throttled up, so maybe some issue got carried over from SPG?) The SD70 has a very similar dynamic brake noise and it never starts stuttering like that. There is also a compressor noise that kicks in when the main reservior drops to a certain point that can also start stuttering, given it does this every minute or so it can get quite grating. The volume of the horn from the external camera also seems really loud to me, like it could be turned down to about 3/4 to 2/3 what it is now. Normally I like a loud horn, I hardly drive the GP-9 on OSD because the horn is super quiet but wowzers this one is booming.

    I don't claim to know exactly what an ES44AC is supposed to sound like but I too feel like something is off with it's audio. There doesn't seem to be much change in pitch or speed of the engine noise when changing throttle settings. At notch 8 going up a steep hill it sounds like it's still kinda idling which creates a real disconnect between what you're doing and the aural imput you are getting. At full power the sound makes me think more of an idling WWII-era radial engine. It just doesn't give you the same sense of a powerful locomotive pulling a heavy train that others in the game do. The horn also seems a little peculiar, like slightly tinny or distorted? I think the bell is a little on the quiet side too.

    The issue with losing locomotive engine noise at the front locos when switching back from a camera at the rear of the train happened sometimes on SPG too. Seems like it happens mainly at low speed or before you start moving. Once you are rolling for awhile you can switch without any ill effects.

    Anyways, thats my 2 cents + so far.

    DW
     
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  26. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Well-Known Member

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    You can not just walk down from any of the locomotive, like you can in other North American trainset, in this one you have to press a key to get down
     
  27. Matto140

    Matto140 Well-Known Member

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    Question: Should Slow Speed Control work over MU trio?
    I try to load Coal but SSC work only in lead unit and other two generate full power according throttle notch.
     
  28. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Skyhook, the Hi-Ad truck is NOT two pieces of a frame on the sides, it is a U-shape.
    [​IMG]
    upload_2022-4-16_9-32-55.png
    The truck needs a lot of structural integrity, that's why the massive frame goes AROUND the inner axle to the other side. It is so on most of the GE locos and most of the EMD locos, nothing new or rare. Though that's yet another proof SHG GEVO started from their Cane Creek AC4400, where this first appeared.
     
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  29. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    That's a serious flaw in the loco model. I was expecting more care for the trucks from Skyhook after Cane Creek.
     
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  30. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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  31. Yqd_FY

    Yqd_FY New Member

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    When are there promotions?
     
  32. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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    Sales you mean?
     
  33. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Next steam one is in 16 days
     
  34. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    The route is really top, can only say and find mostly positive things.

    About the loco (rolling stock), which was developed by skyhook..., i rather have a bold opinion.
    Maybe sh would be a good 2nd party dev like rivet did with cathcart. Looks like they dont care really that much about accuracy and detail when it comes to the vehicles, so my point of view is more that with every loco sh made from scratch, its blown and creates annoyance.

    At least for my expectations its not passing the quality standard at all compared to other good dtg products.

    Can i recommend horseshoe curve? Yes

    Longterm, who gives me a 187 and gevo comming up to todays quality standard of tsw? Really not expecting an answer to that...
     
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  35. Quentin

    Quentin Well-Known Member

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    I've just tried to do the 10K GP-38 service as part of the 'journey' and I was immediately faced with a red light that stubbornly refuses to clear. If I run the service directly (not as part of the journey) the red light clears as soon as you start to roll.

    (Apols if this has already been mentioned and I missed it.)
     
  36. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    The route is relatively nicely made, but when I play my second service (grain from Cresson to Johnstown) and:
    - distance counter doesn't work properly (895 yd is about 1850 feet according to it)
    - wipers seriously don't match with the line where the raindrops disappear
    - the route randomly goes through a meadow (between South Fork and Johnstown)
    [​IMG]
    - trees clipping (classic)
    - wipers give up at the end completely
    - dynamic brake just does whatever it wants (I don't even remember it being THIS bad on SPG AC4400)

    QA has been discussed a lot of times in various threads, but I'm sorry... This is my second service on this route and 4 of those points are something that absolutely shouldn't have gotten through, one of the other two (the dynamic brake) just points out how little effort went into the simugraph systems of the GEVO. I'm fairly active on the forums and know what's happening. If that wasn't the case, I would be left baffled by how it is possible I got a route with so advanced physics as SMH (not free of bugs for sure) and half a year later the next US freight DLC almost completely jumps back to 2017 SPG era. It is a third party, but I seriously doubt a casual gamer would care. The game carries the DTG logo and that's about it for them. The route is lovely, but held back by such unnecessary mistakes, the rolling stock... well a lot less effort than expected went into it and it's sad.

    This was a premiere of GEVO and it's basically an AC44 reskin with slightly improved sounds. I am left worried about what future DTG entries of GEVO might look like if they happen because this needs a rebuild from the ground up basically. The model is OK, the cab is lacking and sometimes straight-up wrong, trucks are wrong and physics are disastrous. Again... as a player... I see this after two services... why hasn't QA caught this? Especially with the route being postponed so heavily (I really don't want to know the state it would've released in back then).
     
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  37. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    It might seem like an AC44 reskin but have a look at it and the GP38-2 in Livery Designer and you'll see it very much isn't with the newly added extra functionality of what can be edited and painted etc.....
     
  38. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. The more I dug into it (before refunding and seeing the more recent comments), the more it became apparent that it was just the AC4400 with the altered radiator section and cab. Which is quite sad and honestly something DTG really should be looking after if they're branding TSW to be authentic. Some things will never be perfect, but there shouldn't be obvious signs that shortcuts were taken during development, especially at this point in TSW's lifecycle when they know the community will nit-pick even small details out.

    The GP38 is still all recycled from SPG, with all its bugs and issues (that got even worse with TSW2)

    For the GEVO, there's a lot of great youtube videos that capture its sound quite well. Still doesn't beat hearing it in real life, but its quite close, especially with a good set of headphones. Whatever was used in game was awful though. It sounded like it was recorded on someone's phone, which doesn't have nearly the fidelity required to capture a giant engine, and then sped up/volumed up for the notches. There was also a lot missing. And fun fact about GEVO's, the engine actually maxes out in N4.
    -Start/Stop sounds (recycled from the AC4400)
    -Low Idle/High Idle (missing, only high idle present, maybe)
    -Low/High idle with skip fire (missing, skip fire is a GEVO thing that will skip cylinders in a defined order to save fuel, but keep the engine running)
    -N1 = High idle
    -N2, N3, N4+ are all distinct (N3/N4+ are the recognizable "chug" of the GEVO)
    *At slow speeds if the computer detects its struggling and in N8, there is an extra boost for a bit more HP
    - AC traction motors (missing, and unmistakable sound)
    - GE air compressor (missing, classic 'whoop' sound)

    As sound is one of the most important things to me for the "simulator experience" of TSW, I'm probably more critical than some, but I'm also not so full of it I expect perfection, as that's impossible. For comparison, look at the SPG engine or SD70ACe mods on trainsimcommunity. They're not perfect, but they sound much closer to the real thing than whatever DTG has in their library. Mods can only go so far though, especially if the loco wasn't properly set up. It does seem to me that for whatever reason DTG haven't made the connections necessary to make up for when then can't do reference trips for good NA loco audio, and why we keep getting shafted with every new NA route. And yes, this was a Skyhook product, but DTG should be saying to their third-party devs, "if you can't get/don't have the resources you need, here's our list of contacts - we can hook you up"
     
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  39. chessiet#4231

    chessiet#4231 Active Member

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    I’ve noticed that when changing viewpoints, using either key 2 or 3, or the appropriate keys on Raildriver, in order to get to the rear or return to the front of the train. My screen temporarily jumps to one of the load screens.
    Previously, it would simply change to the next viewpoint. Is this an HSC route glitch or a new game feature? It’s rather irritating!
     
  40. chessiet#4231

    chessiet#4231 Active Member

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    These GEVO mods may be helpful or of interest; they’re linked in the description for this YouTube review by Schnauzapowahz.
     
  41. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    That’s the game loading scenery a mile away isn’t it?
     
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  42. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    A longstanding i
    It does it on Sherman Hill too, because the train is so long. The back end is in a scenery tile that's already been unloaded from memory, and has to be re-loaded.
     
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  43. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Well-Known Member

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    Yes I love the route to. Beautiful scenery.
    But some things is not good. ES44AC Dynamic brake. Hopeless.
    Dynamic brake from 1-8 should be linearly stronger. 1 weak and 8 strongest
    But 1 and 2 is very strong and 4-8 almost no change. Very difficult to brake trains when it is like this.
    This is not prototypical
     
  44. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Thats why i think skyhook should cancle being a 3rd party dev instant and use their talent in creating routes as 2nd party dev.

    Nomatter how good looking hc is (and it does look good), skyhook blows one loco after another.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2022
  45. notch 8 nate

    notch 8 nate New Member

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    This applies to HSC and every other North American cargo route. I’d just like to throw this out there…on the consisits, especially the manifest trains is it possible to mix up the companies that are found in the consist? For example, on any of the routes you wouldn’t find nothing but NS cars on the train, there would be literally every company out there. I’ve seen BC Rail flats, Florida East Coast and even railroads that don’t even exist anymore here in the Southwest on our manifests, not to mention every class 1. Maybe mix up the cars a little? Even its the only ones in game that’ll add that little bit of realism.

    Another one that I can’t let go is the cars are perfectly in order. A to B end (the B end is the end of the car with the handbrake on it) they’re not mixed up as you would find on an actual train. Same with the auto racks the would be found on the side of the car but they would be on either side.

    That’s all I got for now, I know more will come. I’m tired and out, y’all have a good one.
     
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  46. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you both here. I know how much Matt loves saying “It’s never just a reskin” (and to be fair, they did change the model) but the GEVO certainly seems to be a copied AC44 with some model changes. To me, it seems like Skyhook have a real knack for scenery - Cane Creek looks gorgeous and HSC does as well from what I’ve seen in streams - but they really need to step up on the loco side. The Cane Creek AC44 suffers from the same issues as the SPG one, which I don’t blame Skyhook for since they specifically wanted to re-use an existing loco. But then they introduce a bunch of new issues like non-functional number board lights and quite frankly disastrous trucks (ride height, animations, orientation). The Br 187 is pretty much a complete train wreck (pun fully intended). The ES44AC is not really an ES44AC but rather an AC44 in disguise with all of the issues the latter has. Not only that, Skyhook still managed to get some important elements of the trucks wrong (yet again). Making that mistake once is not so bad to my mind. Making it again after that shows a lack of care.

    I don’t like bashing anyone and the forum has enough negativity without me adding to it. I want Skyhook to succeed and improve. But slapping the lacklustre AC44 physics on anything American is not the way. Neither is getting such important elements of the model like the trucks wrong.
     
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  47. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I personally would like to see more creativeness with locos. It's like having two identical cars and saying one has heated seats. I remember one stream for one loco them saying it's different because of the window surround. How does that impact gameplay?
    I appreciate there's limitations in overall volumes of differing stock but I can't really recall a properly decent different US freight loco since the F7.

    playing these 97% similar locos (other than slightly different cab set ups, window surrounds etc) is not conducive to my wallet opening. Im hanging about for steam
     
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  48. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Its been stated the reason DTG doesn't doo that is it only works with unloaded cars, hence why Oakville is the only route so far that supports this. Which is a shame, cause its very annoying seeing the same formation for a manifest on EVERY DAMN TRAIN. Its like I'm watching a model train go round and round......
     
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  49. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I suspect the realistic physics of Sherman Hill hasn't been deemed popular with the general player base, (we sometimes have to remember that those of us on the forums are generally hardcore players with higher expectations and demands then the general player). That's why we've seen changes to the start up on the Sherman Hill for the air brakes and possibly why those physics haven't been replicated on HSC.
     
  50. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I'd say the fully pumped train is all you need. Yes, there's something to pumping it on your own, but you wouldn't do that on a mainline train that just arrived and hasn't changed. Other than that SMH physics are definitely superb to HSC (GEVO). Can't see a situation where a casual player would enjoy this mess of a dynamic brake.
     
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