How Does Dtg Propose To Get Over The ‘clarity’ Hurdle?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Oct 11, 2020.

  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    As we all know by now, DTG have implemented the ‘same game experience for all’ across all three platforms.

    Whilst this is good in its own ways, this also brings limitations to TSW.

    We already know that because of this, we have the following issues:
    - No editor because console users wouldn’t be able to access it
    - No editor = not being able to make our own routes
    - No sharing capabilities:

    What is the point in making scenarios and re-skins if you can’t even share them for other people to enjoy?
    - No community made content

    So what is DTG’s solution to these issues?

    Limit the potential of TSW and its capabilities in order to retain its ‘clarity’ status or allow PC users to have more freedom and features?

    Naturally PC versions of games have always had more freedom to do things, and console users know when they purchase it, that they wouldn’t have the same experience as their PC counterpart. Though this isn’t anything new and they’ve been fine with this for years.

    So why is DTG creating extra problems for themselves when they could easily just enable features on a specific platform?
     
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  2. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    What is the point? The point for me is that I get to enjoy them.
     
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  3. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    There’s always been community-made content. For example, https://www.trainsimcommunity.com/freeware-and-mods shares many scenarios and reskins for others to enjoy.
     
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  4. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Because apparently DTG likes to do extra and pointless work.

    Look at the mastery or journey system or the livery editor. Did anyone ask for those to be implemented? Not really. The mastery and the journey modes are totally pointless and give nothing to gameplay (in their current form, anyway).
    As for the livery editor, it was also entirely pointless to make it, as a simple option to import user made texture files would have been much less work for them, and would have worked better for the community. Yet they decided to make it just to spend extra effort on something that really wasn't needed. Sure it's not a bad feature, but for a train simulator it's totally pointless.

    And then they wonder why they dev team is short on time... Maybe put work on where it's actually needed?
     
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  5. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Ok sure, maybe the livery editor is pointless on PC...but this isn't a PC first game. It's a console game that also runs on PC (regardless of what DTG claim). The livery editor is very much a tool geared towards console players, and I think does a pretty good job of that. We need to stop thinking of TSW as a PC game. It's a multi-platform game with all the pros and cons that come with it. Especially given the abysmal players counts on Steam, you can anticipate that console-centric decisions will continue to be made. This isn't meant as a complaint necessarily, but an observation of what we actually see happening. DTG has made it abundantly clear that console concerns likely come first and things like the way the scenario editor and livery creator were made and implemented bear that out. It is what it is. We're in a chicken and egg situation. DTG likely isn't going to care as much about PC features and capabilities because the game has been a flop on PC, but the game as been a flop on PC because it lacks PC features.
     
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  6. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    That’s a good example of a fallacy.

    I understand your point, but let’s also stop for a minute and recognize that there are DTG employees that care deeply about the game’s features and capabilities, and there are TSW2 players who don’t see the game as a flop.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
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  7. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    That’s fine, but DTG have to stop pretending it’s made for all platforms, when it’s clear that this is a console-driven game. (Which I don’t have a problem with)

    Originally they said that TSW would be a TS1 replacement, but it’s clear that from a PC players perspective, that a lot of things are fundamentally missing.
     
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  8. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Of course. However a flop doesn't mean it's bad. It means it's not commercially successful. Go look at the Steam player numbers and tell me with a straight face that isn't true. It has, thus far, been somewhat (at least) of a flop on PC. The data bears that out, not my opinion on quality.

    And of course there are DTG employees that care about PC and the product. I'd assume most of them do. But it's pedantic to pretend that is what I meant, as it's obvious I was referring to the focus of the company as a whole, not the personal pride or opinions of the developers. They don't make the ultimate decisions on features and direction. The brass does.
     
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  9. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    I couldn’t say or determine whether the game has been commercially successful. (I don’t know DTG’s criteria, but I imagine only they could say whether it has or not, despite impressions to the contrary.)

    As for the player numbers, I don’t think it’s valid to make the numbers support a given claim.

    For example, I like the game a great deal, but don’t generally have time to play the game. I don’t see the game as a flop, and I hope to make time to enjoy it more.

    In other words, the game is successful to me because of the enjoyment I get from it, regardless of whether 500 or 5,000 other people are playing it.

    I don’t think the sky is falling and the game will stop being developed. I think DTG will continue to produce more routes and locos for it. Personally, I’d rather see them continue to focus on (fixing bugs and) adding new DLC, rather than adding PC-only features that some are asking for.
     
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  10. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I'd argue this point. The journey mode is a handy and structured way to get into a route. I personally quite like the journey mode, and I know a number of others do too. Infact, I'd go so far to say that I wish they'd add journey mode onto the routes that currently don't have it.
     
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  11. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

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    I agree with this, the journey actually brings life to the different tracks
     
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  12. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Nope, it was licensing that killed it.
     
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  13. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Another week, another PC player crying about missing out on things because of consoles. Not strictly true, one of the same few PC players crying again about missing out because of consoles. Go and play TS, from accounts by the same people who complain about consoles, it’s far better than TSW anyway, with all the things console development allegedly doesn’t allow on PC right there in all its glory. Editors and community content and sharing and routes from around the world spilling out from every pixel on the screen. TSW is not the droids you’re looking for, TS is.
     
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  14. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    For yourself to enjoy. I make scenarios for TS1, some I have uploaded to UKTS but I make them for my own enjoyment and share one if I think it is of interest or good enough.

    I am a PC player and am quite happy with it, I would like a more substantial scenario/service mode editor but TSW works well enough for me.
     
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  15. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    A few inaccuracies in this thread, let's get to cleaning them up.

    First, Train Sim World 2 is not "a flop" on PC from our perspective. Quite the opposite, we're very happy with how it has performed so far. Yes, I'm aware that Train Simulator has a higher number of concurrent players, but that's the thing with concurrency, a player whose average play session is 1 hour is the equivalent of 6 people whose average session is 10 minutes.

    Consider that while using the Train Simulator editor you are considered to be playing the game, and that the average editor session is around 3-4 hours. The average TSW play session comes in between 30 and 60 minutes.

    Basically, you're trying to compare apples to oranges. Either way, they're playing a Dovetail game, so we're happy.

    Train Sim World hasn't found its feet for multi-hour sessions yet. Sure, a good number of players will sink in several hours at a time, but the average is still in the one scenario or journey range right now.

    That's what we in the trade call, an opinion. The journey mode, when it was introduced, tackled a major issue for new players - "what do I do next?" For those who played Train Simulator previously no such help was needed, for new players it definitely was and as a result we've seen far more players stick with the game for longer. Similarly, both the Scenario and Livery designers have lengthened our average play length by double that of TSW2020. Sharing is obviously desirable and we're working on both the logistics and legals of doing this, but that isn't stopping people from enjoying them.

    The main conceit of this thread is that the lack of user generated content is a hurdle to be overcome. There's another way to look at this: that the game reaches the point where a lack of user generated content doesn't matter. To put it a different way, we either find a way to make UGC possible, or find a path to where the game doesn't need it.

    For many players who have not played Train Simulator we're doing okay on that second part already. It's largely the wizened old dogs of TS who are missing the breadth of community content. This doesn't make them wrong, but it does make them a subset of the playerbase as a whole.

    It's also worth noting that we've not finished with the Livery Designer or Scenario Planner and that we're discussing designs for more creative tools as well - all of which will function on every platform.

    Finally, because I always do a finally, the lack of editor is made up of the following issues:
    - Legal. We cannot distribute unlicensed creations.
    - Cross platform. A PC-only editor would be fine, but anything published must work on every platform. That means testing both at DTG and with the platform-holders.

    Yes, there are more reasons, but those are the two that deployed the emergency brake.
     
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  16. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    Why? So lets say there are a team of people, a team who love X railway, maybe even work on it, they have 3D experience, they have it all, they are passionate and want to make a TSW version of their railway - but they cannot make their own route because they would have to release it on console and that isnt possible? so youre hamstringing your players for a made up reason? when did that become the DTG agenda exactly - after we'd all brought your TSW idea at reveal in 2016/7 which mentioned an ediotr and being the evolution of train sim?

    as for the legal - its been fine since 2007, so what has exactly changed? or is that a made up excuse too?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  17. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    I'd recommend that group of people look for a different game, because this game doesn't offer them that facility.
     
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  18. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    I respect your straight reply, If only DTG and Matt could have been as honest 4 years ago you'd maybe still have some good faith left.
     
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  19. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    My personal guess on the second final point that Protagonist made is not necessarily that the editor is PC-Only or that it needs to work on every platform: Its the testing effort because of the way console games work with their respective stores (Sony, Microsoft), every piece of content needs to be approved by them, so the consequence is that DTG NEEDS to test these editor-made content. I can totally see why they dont want to take in that effort because they have more than enough stuff in their pipelines. So either the way content gets approved on consoles gets more easy which is more on the side of Sony and Microsoft or we as PC players have to accept the fact that an editor wont happen with this game. Which is fine to me personally.
     
  20. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    TS2021 is a much better game than tsw2 but tsw2 has more potential than ts2021 but dtg aren't maxizeming that games potential
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I like the straight answer. It's good to know dovetail has lied for the past 4 years and continues to lie. How is it ok that in ts2021 you can share liveries for trains without any "licensing" but not in tsw2 because of licensing issues". Makes no sense Sam. "Train Sim World 2, The evoultion of Train Simulation" What a lie espically since the qa team doesn't get enough time to test dlcs so we get bugs that are so clear as day it's like it hasn't been tested, and preserved collection that came riddled with bugs
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The licensing part seems like a made up excuse
     
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  23. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    They probably have licensing agreements for TS, but not TSW. They are separate products that I think would require separate licenses.
     
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  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    There is a difference between an aspiration which hasn't been achieved and actually deliberately misleading people by telling lies knowing something won't happen.

    I don't think anyone should be labelling people as liars without any proof!
     
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  25. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    The difference is that TS has a different set of rules applied to it. When it was first established very little was done on licensing. In fact, almost nothing was done on licensing. This set a precedent for the game. It became apparent, however that in working that way we were opening ourselves up to some fairly sizable problems legally - using another company's branding without permission is a violation of copyright. To that end we started licensing everything we could and jumping through the hoops required by the licensors.

    Train Sim is fully licensed for DTG add-ons, but community work is the wild west. This runs a risk for us but flies somewhat below radar, mitigating that risk - we're also not in a position to stop it, and were we to do so the uproar would be enormous.

    TSW, on the other hand, is fully, 100% legitimate.

    Work on the editor was being slowed for purely technical and commercial reasons (we didn't have the ability to prevent DLC being shared within the editor, hello commercial suicide!) right up until our licensing team got hold of it. At this point it was clear that allowing TSW to go wild-west was a really bad idea. Also, given the work needed to test for every platform meant it was simply not practical, and required us to reinvent the Steam workshop to work on every platform and, and, and... Basically the further along we got the worse the problems became.

    You've never been purposefully lied to. There was always the intention to deliver the editor, otherwise why would we paint ourselves into an impossible situation to get out of? It's only as the problems continued to mount, and to become intractable, that we pulled the plug to look for other solutions.

    [edit - one of probably many typos]
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  26. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the clarity
    So I assume an editior won't be coming anytime soon. Maybe you guys and gals shouldn't say things are coming if it's not possible to do. If it's not possible to do, I fully understand but making statements about new features that can't happen isn't a good idea. Perhaps before making statements about new features, perhaps see if it's possible to do before saying that this feature is coming and then a few years down the line, your customers will get upset that it won't be coming because of issues
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
  27. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    I guess you just have to take it as damage done and that your reputation will be unrepairable for any future releases. I appreciate that you are actually fairly honest about the fact TSW2 is a dead horse for alot of us, youve saved alot more headaches.

    Hopefully PC get a true Train Sim at somepoint from a different developer.

    I certainly feel like Matt especially has mis-led the community over the past 3 or 4 years, whether he meant to or not. It rests on him as producer.

    EDIT for clarity - I know people are going to ask how, to know you'd have to go back to later 2016/2017 when they were pushing TSW, thats where all the damage has come from. Only made worse by TSW2 being revealed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  28. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    1. See "Roadmap"
    2. There will never be an editor. Never. No editor. Never. No. Editor. No editor. No.

    I do not apologise for item 2 because this has been stated already. A lot, and you're active enough in the community to know this already.

    There will be no public editor.
     
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  29. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    And just like magic the word ‘editor’ was never uttered on the forum again. Now, let's talk about steam trains...
     
  30. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    exclusive feature to TSW4 im afraid, if only some enthusiasts could work on their own.....
     
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  31. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Dear BR125
    I really want to know how many of the community think that TSW 2 is a dead horse? I really hate it when people think they speak for all of us which is just not true. I enjoy TSW 2 the same as I enjoyed TSW 2020.
    Yes, the original plans with CSX: HH may have been others, more aiming for PC players. But that changed. Changing their plans doesnt make any dev a liar. I see the disappointment of parts of the community but that is not a reason to namecall the devs and subtlely say that they lie.
     
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  32. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think TSW 2 is a dead horse. I’m looking forward to seeing what the future brings.
     
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  33. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Hey look it just shows dtg can't keep their word whether intentional or not. Hey I hope one day Train Sim World 2 (even though I like this game and want it to succeed so badily despite many many flaws) has a competitor espically for consoles to yall get your act together as a company and stop making broken promises that they can't deliver on and poor business decisions. I'll keep being very critical of the game so it can be improved but I beliveve competition would make this game much better
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
  34. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    THERE WERE NO PROMISES. DTG never made a promise about anything. They just said that they intended to do this and that. Protagonist already mentioned why they couldnt do that and still you are kicking on DTG.

    I am also a person enjoying the game and critizicing some of DTGs decision, but wtf? This "broken promise" argument is so wrong. Yeah, competition would be nice, but think of how niche train games in general are and how much work and money you have to invest, especially when it comes to licensing. So please stop hitting on DTG when they already explained why certain things cant be done.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  35. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    YES THERE WERE.

    The way that both the editor and multiplayer were talked about in the run up to release and subsequently after the original TSW would have left nobody in any doubt they were coming. We didn't know then what we know now. Had we understood the scale of the problem we'd not have said anything on the subject.

    (Nobody else needs to pile on here, we're re-treading some very old ground)
     
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  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I really do appreicate the honesty though :)
     
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  37. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    So did the devs explicitely said that they promise to deliver Editor and Multiplayer? I am certain to remember that they just said that they are very sure these things will come to the game, not that they are promised to be there. Sorry to be nitpicky here, but if nobody used the wording "promise" explicitely, it is my understanding that then there are no promises made. But nevermind, Protagonist is right, dont let this start here again.
     
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  38. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    They've stated it will come multiple times and he just said that mate if you scroll up. I understand why they couldn't do it but it's a shame it can't
     
  39. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    2. Never say never.
    1. We will see. Maybe someone will be tempted to use some external tool since DTG does not want to.
     
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  40. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
    It is what it is.
    Let's concentrate on what we have.
     
  41. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Ok Sam, No point in rehashing the old arguments about the editor then. It's not coming. Fine. In my opinion that's suicide for the game on PC, but that's Dovetail's problem, not mine. The thing that has given TS the legs to last 8 years will never come to TSW. ...OK. That's an...interesting move, but I guess par for the course for TSW which is really a console first title. Really wish DTG would just admit that at this point. That being said, I DO enjoy TSW, so don't think I'm slinging stone just for the heck of it. It's just an odd/bad decision for a PC sim in my not so humble opinion.
     
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  42. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh it's clear tsw seems more for consoles than pc
     
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  43. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    The editor is dead in the water. It isn’t coming.

    However DTG made a massive mistaking marketing TSW as a TS1 replacement at launch. It really isn’t for various reasons.

    Hence where the term “TSW is a console game” comes from. Not because it’s a bad game or anything, but because of the similarities consoles and the game itself presents when it comes to limitations. The game itself is very closed and restricted.
     
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  44. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Which is fine! I'm a PC gamer and don't play it on consoles, but if DTG wants to make a console first train sim...cool! Go for it. Just be honest about its limitations on PC and call a spade a spade.
     
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  45. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Is it not time we let the editor go, it is like an obsession!
     
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  46. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    No other choice I guess, but at the same time, it's always going to be a bit of a rallying cry for the TS PC crowd. I love TS, and like TSW. I really want TSW to be the mid-long term upgrade or replacement for TS, but the lack of things like an editor may make that hope dead in the water for a lot of us, which honestly, doesn't feel so good. Because that leaves the TS PC crowd in a bit of limbo. Are DTG going to improve TS then? (and not just pump out new routes, but actually modernize the engine). Or are they going to just let it slowly die and hope the TS crowd eventually begrudgingly moves to TSW due to having limited other options. Those are valid questions that I'm not even sure DTG had a clear handle on yet.
     
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  47. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    The editor does exist, of course, Matt even showed it on YouTube and DTG must even use it, but we won't get it, because consoles. I wonder what we won't get because of this yet. Maybe Sam could make a list and present to us, with the appropriate clauses of course (for sure, 100%, no doubt). As if I hadn't seen how many times in the past DTG had changed his mind, maybe he would have believed it instead of just worrying.
     
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  48. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I play on both lol
     
  49. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    DTG has made a huge marketing mistake with the Train Sim World Franchise. This is for sure gonna turn away some pc players. I don't think dtg thought of that and it will hurt them in the long run for pc players
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
  50. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    And what annoys me the most, we have lived to see a strange time where the answer to every tough question is: it's not on the Roadmap.
    The marketing guy who came up with this should get the Nobel Prize :D
     
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