I Didn’t Expect To Fall In Love With Tsc After Tsw

I seem to have had a resurgence with SimRail. The route is now huge and is set to expand another 100km or so tomorrow when the Lodz extension DLC comes out. Not without caveats of course, the SP game is still an afterthought with a handful of scenarios and no way to save your game. Multiplayer you tend to jump in and out of a random train covering a random section. But the driving experience is superb and you really get the vibe of being a small cog on a large network. Yesterday evening I picked up an EMU run which was already about 15’ late and then proceeded to get regulated a couple of times for faster or other trains to get by. Plus the trains are superb particularly the older electric locos and EMU’s. Even when things get a bit juddery around Warsaw or Katowice, you don’t get that horrible TSW sound squelching.

My Steam Wallet is ready and waiting for tomorrow evening which is more than I can say about some recent or forthcoming TSW content.

You can do much more with a large long or network route than a succession of isolated 15 mile bus services and DTG need to start thinking about extending existing routes to offer a similar experience.

 

Well tbh, both of you were just stating opinions. Both of you can be right and wrong at the same time. Imo TSW looks so much better since we have TOD4. But you're perfectly fine to disagree

 

I definitely prefer Train Simulator Classic for simulator and procedural realism. When was the last time you encountered an ESR on Train Sim World?
The con with Train Simulator Classic is all the time spent installing enhancement packs and finding what is required to get downloaded scenarios to run. I enjoy making scenarios too but with a modified Train Simulator Classic using AP enhancement packs they cannot be shared on the Steam Workshop so one has to compromise; I was trying to make some 2003 ScotRail scenarios and ended up with a Regional Railways Class 158 from the Huddersfield Line, InterCity Swallow in place of GNER, and only SPT Turbostars going between Edinburgh and Glasgow. What’s worse is that when Train Simulator Classic inevitably corrupts as it does and needs files repaired you have to then reinstall some of the enhancement packs taking up considerable time all over again, and Train Simulator Classic seems to crash and corrupt a lot!

If there was a Train Simulator Classic “Armstrong Powerhouse Edition” on Steam then many problems would be solved in my opinion, and a high price tag would be worth paying for that to happen.

 

I thought EPs could be used in Workshop scenarios. Anyhow, I do enjoy that challenge of compromise sometimes. Forces you to be creative.

 

I keep an eye on Simrail but will wait until it gets a better single player experience. I know it's similar in that respect to TSC but quick drive in TSC opens up many possibilities.

Also whilst I like non UK routes, something which I have enjoyed with TSW, I would probably want to see some UK content before I invested in it.

 

Oh I get that and hopefully at some point the game will expand or get a route editor.

Of course the EU07 and EP07 electric locos are based off the design of the UK Class 83’s so with a bit of imagination it’s not hard to think of yourself barrelling down a 1970’s WCML. And as said, the sounds are pure too, not like the JT Class 87 with the oscillating and squelching pitch. Think I stood that for about 10 minutes last time I fired up WCMLOS before throwing the towel in.

 

You gave an opinion.
I gave an opinion.
That's what this thread is.
Personal opinions.
Did it change to an "argument" thread somewhere?
What is the debate topic we are arguing?

 

You don’t need mods at all to play TSC aside from the railworks enhancer 2 which is a must have and prevents the need for other mods. I’ve played it for years without downloading a single mod online very happily, in fact all my many mods are installed on TSW!

 

It amazes me TSC still exist to a degree, usually progression in simulation titles as technology changes tends to cause the end of older versions, as it becomes less supported but seems to me that developers aren't overly interested/jumping at the chance in moving development to TSW.....TSC just got the 745 + 755 for GA yet TSW keeps getting rehashed 66s....

 

I have not had that experience. It's taken a LOT of hunting for mods to get many routes to play correctly. All depends on what routes you want to play I suppose. Those that have more elements will require more elements to run.
There's also "store bought" vs "community" which is a big variety as well.

If you wanna play something off of Steam... works out of the box.
If you want to run something like the homecrafted SODOR route... that requires a lot of hunting.
For MOST people who just buy from Steam...sure it's pretty easy. It even suggests what other routes you need to make scenarios work on what you are buying.

 

If it ain't broke don't fix it? TSC has a different business model. Since DTG does very little to support it, it doesn't have to change much. There's no huge rush (like TSW 6) to make a new one every year with huge fanfare, so no new "features" need to be added and tweaked. This "hands off" approach makes it more stable and predictable, with sales coming from the same customers over and over building huge libraries with lots of community content available from third parties.

TSW depends on huge marketing, constantly changing code base and new "features" (gimmicks) to draw new players in. This brings a lot more risk and bugs, but focusing on consoles mitigates this to a large extent with a larger audience.

Just different ways of going about things.
They both have their pros and cons.
However, there are definitely audiences for both.

TSC is a bit like that old cell phone or car vs the newest one with all the cool new features.
Your old car might not have wi-fi and backup camera and finding parts can be a bit of an issue but it gets you from point A-B reliably and you already own it anyway so why not use it?

 

I really don't see the point of tsw any more. Yes it has superior graphics and you can roam on foot but in terms of route length and freight activities, tsw has gone backwards.
What's the point of the shiny new game if all we are gonna get is short modern routes with the same old one handle trains and the same old class 66 hauling freight.

Yeah TSC is a outdated engine that's been pushed to its limit yet the new game (tsw) doesn't even come close to those limits.

 

As someone who played TSC since it was called Railworks - hard disagree. TSC hud is really bad if you want to have an immersive experience, while keeping the knowledge you, the train driver, would have. It is always in your face, obscuring the very valuable part of the screen - the bottom. In a 3D game, generally the area closest to the player is rendered at the bottom of the screen... and as most of the time the player wants to interact with stuff that is closest to him, you do not want to obscure this area with a 2D hud.

The hud made sense when TSC was initially released, because of lower screen resolution that was common then. But in today high resolution monitors, the same information can be conveyed at portion of screen cost.

I like having the part of the hud tucked in less valuable parts of the screen, keeping the main view port unobstructed. I also like the customizability of TSW hud where you can choose what information you actually have and in what format. The only thing that is missing is the ability to freely move and scale the UI elements.

There are also hard limitations to the hud, i.e. the track view shows your whole train, that means that how far you see ahead is dictated by train length, and if you drive a very long train, the track preview get severely limited. You cannot simultaneously see the possition of train, loco and dynamic brake. Some valuable indicator, like brake pipe pressure is only available in full hud...etc

Also on some advanced addons (i.e. steam locos) the hud directly interferes with some advanced functionality by forcing certain control state while the hud is enabled.

 

I don't make scenarios myself, but if I want to use AP's loco in a community scenario I use locoswap to swap the loco I drive. Worked well for me until now.

 

Can't argue about controls, but in regards to position I think bottom is very common and convenient area for a hud. The bottom of the screen falls within natural peripheral vision. Players can glance at it without losing focus on the main action, which usually happens at the center or top of the screen (assuming you know the hotkeys and don't need to interact with elements in the cab), and bottom position prevents visual clutter. It may be different for everyone but I mainly look outside scanning track signs and signals, rarely look down to check my speed or brake/throttle setting

 

Speaking of the hud in TSC, does anyone know any mods to make it smaller?

 

If I remember right, there is. I think rw enhancer or at least one of the versions completely changes the hud.

Press F3 to reduce the size a little without mods.

 

But not fully opaque almost 1/4 of a screen (yes, you can change transparency, but you're changing transparency of the whole thing, not only the 'filler' panels'). Racing sims / games are a good example for similar use case, and even those that a have HUD with similar concept as TSC (full streched out panel), like Gran Turismo 7, have it tucked much lower, with most area transparent, and less obstructing. And that is for a game that is to be played from couch, having bigger distance to screen, thus needing bigger UI elements.

Most have a HUD that is very similar to what TSW has.
FPS also follows similar pattern.

By any modern standard, the TSC hud is just bad, and there is a reason why stuff like RW Enhancer 2 exists.

RW Enhancer 2, highly recommended if you are playing TSC, lots of improvements, not only in the UI part.
https://www.rwcentral.com/store/product/7-rw-enhancer-2/

 

I'd hardly consider "Nope" to be an opinion.

Of course, if you could tell me why you disagreed with me, that would be more helpful.

argument
[ˈɑːɡjʊm(ə)nt]
1. an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one:
"I've had an argument with my father"
"heated arguments over public spending"
"there was some argument about the decision"
2. a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory:
"there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal"
"he rejected the argument that keeping the facility would be costly"

There is a difference between an argument and an argument. I was using the latter meaning.

 

Tell me one reason why Tod 3 is better then tod 4. Literally everything got better and the old routes look horrible compared to Tod4 routes.
The quality improved a lot starting at the 3d clouds going to the night being actually dark.
For me older routes without a proper timetable are just unplayable, for example RRO or HRR. Especially HRRs light setting is way too bright. Im really interested in why you think Tod 3 is superior and on what certain route with better lighting quality you are refering too.

 

I'm not sure when TOD3 in particular joined the discussion, but to prove my point anyway:

West Somerset Railway, 9:55, light clouds. TSW5:


TSW2:


TSW1:


Notice how at some point between TSW2 and 5 the sun exploded. And just to be certain that it isn't a WSR-specific issue, here's my beloved WCML Over Shap with the same environmental settings.

 

Going against the grain here I know, but whenever I run TSC it’s not very long before I have to close it and fire up TSW again, warts and all. There’s no going back for me, sorry.

 

I feel like you're misinterpreting something here, the player wants to interact with stuff that is closest to the actual in game character, not so much what is closest to the camera. On the contrary, usually what you want to interact with is usually in front of the player character, thus usually more toward the center of the screen. Case and point, Zelda famously made Z-targeting, giving a quick way to place the camera behind you, so that the enemy can be in front of you to better gauge how to combat them. This became extremely common in many games because this exact problem needs solving in most games that are third-person. The bottom of the screen pretty specifically I find isn't usually a especially valuable real-estate in any 3D game I've every played, unless of course it's something like Half-Life where it actually does keep the HUD at the bottom ironically enough.

 

" I find isn't usually a especially valuable real-estate in any 3D game I've every played, unless of course it's something like Half-Life where it actually does keep the HUD at the bottom ironically enough."
Isn't it tucked in corner, as is usuall? Bottom left for life, bottom right for ammo? Top right battery/Light and Top Left for gun selection?
It doesn't have any extra panelling, just the information provided.

There is a difference between this:

and this

Not to mention the abomination which is the full hud

 

Now you are talking about clouds?
Your original statement was the lighting in all older Tsw parts being better in your opinion. The only change regarding brightness happend with Tod 4 so you are talking about the Tod 3 system.
Not to mention all Tsw3+ routes now dont look like a big shadow overlays the entire route. Your screenshots show the difference with WCMLOS being optimized for Tod 4 while WSR only got remastered so it doesnt look as good. If you want it darker then dont set light clouds.
Just my opinion, if you like it otherwise i dont bother.

 

It's not "better" just "different."
You don't like sunny days.
Okay that's fine... but it's still just a personal opinion.
I much prefer TOD 4.
You like the older.
It's not really an "argument" since it's just an aesthetic choice.
Like arguing "vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate" or "summer is better than winter."
If you prefer TSW 2, then play TSW 2.
No one is stopping you.

 

I agree that it's far too intrusive, but that wasn't the point of my post, I don't agree with the points you're making about how valuable that real-estate is. You made it seem like all the most important things in TS happen along the bottom stretch of the screen, which I find isn't true in any game I've play, much less TS.

 

I've over 3000 hours in TSC, never used RWE2, don't think it needs it.

 

I used RWE2 but it is too clunky. The cooking process is onerous. I am thinking of getting the original RWE. I do use reshade.

Regarding TSW, I do think the TOD4 lighting is far better. It's too dark in the earlier versions. Some of the cuttings on BML are almost like being in a tunnel.

 

I'm an intensive TSC player and only an occasional TSW player. Currently, I can't see much reason to get more into TSW, as I get almost everything I value from TSC.

I enjoy decently simulated steam and I enjoy being able to correct scenery that is incorrect. Currently this isn't available in TSW. Sure things can be improved in TSC, but I think people overcomplicate things with all sorts of enhancements and scenarios requiring long DLC lists.

I run out of the box TSC and simply choose/buy/download scenarios that have modest stock requirements, or when a scenario reports missing stock press the F2 key and run without it. Unless the missing stock interacts with your train, you lose nothing except a bit of passing traffic or parked stock in sidings.

TSC is no longer being developed, which has the big advantage that its bugs and functionality limitations are stable. You learn to work around them, or to live with them. TSW often feels like one step forward, two steps back.

 

The F4 HUD is definitely the graphical equivalent of a wart. The F3 HUD is better in that regard, but misses out some useful information the F4 HUD has. The F5 HUD not being usable when the other two HUDs are open is really annoying. A partly redesigned HUD would be nice. That said, I think the current TS HUD has more useful information than either of the current TSW HUD options. The gradient display is probably the best feature, and I like the force display too.

Eh? When did I mention clouds?

My argument in every post on this topic has been about the lighting. At no point did I give a critique on the clouds in TSW. Of course, if I had to say something about it I'd say that the volumetric clouds introduced in TSW3 are the best looking, but that a well executed 2D skybox (like in the AP Weather EP) could look nearly as good while performing better. This also applies to TS.

In gaming overall, I believe that volumetric clouds are only worth the performance sacrifice for games that are set in the sky. No Man's Sky and Microsoft Flight Simulator, for example.

Aha, finally.

You are more than allowed to prefer the lighting in current TSW versions. However, I'd urge you to look at the two images below.


Both of them were taken with the same conditions. The photograph of the Land Rover was taken at 2:15 with no clouds in the sky, a few days ago. I matched that in the TSW screenshot. The iPhone camera does have a habit of messing around with photos, so ignore the colour depth which is a bit more warm and saturated compared to the real world. However, the strength of the sun is still obviously stronger in TSW. While TSW1 and 2's lighting does seem a bit dark, it's far more accurate to real world lighting in the UK.

 

If not for the clouds what were these screenshots for? you said the brightness? Hate to dissapoint but irl is way more similar to Tod4 than Tod3.
Then i must ask which arguments you are talking about? You never argumented about the lighting except for saying the sun exploded while it obviously only got closer to real life. If i go out on a cloudless summer day the lighting is more or less the same. Dont know why it should be different in the UK.
I agree it could be less saturated in the colors but the overall brightness seems fine.

 

...To show the same setting across multiple versions of the same route? Thinking his posts was about the clouds would make as much sense as thinking he's talking about the trees or locos.

 

You need your eyes examined then.

 

This comparison is on so many levels just methodically weak that i don't even know where to start.

 

And since we obviously aren't seeing the same thing and it's not "obvious" on "so many levels" that's why it's entirely opinion and not "proof" of anything. Most people prefer TOD4. That's why it was created.
Just like a LOT of the "arguments" in this thread which are just opinion.
"I like this HUD over that HUD" for example is personal preference.
That's the whole point of the OP.
They "love TSC"... which is not at all an objective thing... it's just a strong emotion.
You don't have to "prove" you enjoy something.
You just do.
Going overboard to try to "prove" other peoples' likes "wrong" is just silly.

 

Right... Except its not subjective. Of course, most people here fight in thede forums 12 hours a day and play the game for the rest 12 hours of the day in their basement, of course they are going to think real life looks like the surface of the sun, with the "shadows" and "saturation" sliders cranked to the max, but it doesn't, and that's why literally every other game in existence doesn't look like this...

Of course, this wouldn't be an issue if DTG could be arsed to introduce a "gamma" or "brightness" slider in the game (I've played thousands of games and I've yet to see any other game that doesn't have one), but that is clearly too complicated for DTG...

 

One of the factors in the nuclear sunshine is HDR. With it turned off it doesn't look as bad. Not saying it looks good either.

My opinion is that tod3 lighting looks more natural all throughout the day but looks totally unrealistic at night.
Tod4 looks natural at night and at sunrise/sunset.
Or with light clouds. Although with no clouds or heavy clouds just looks overly bright.

Some of the foliage on certain routes doesn't react well with tod4 either. Maybe because it was made for tod3, idk?

Also take into account the eye adaption effect doesn't do tod4 any favours.

You can't compare the lighting in TSC to tod3 or 4. It doesn't come close.

 

I certainly did an eye test some weeks ago and no issue has been found. I already started questioning because i can remember the irl clouds arent actually 2D and with cloudless sky everything is as bright too, similar to Tod4. Since you seem to care about my health then i would suggest you do the same thing you told me to do.

 

Then there are some other faults that I won't even begin to mention, you are objectively wrong and that is what really matters.

 

That's technically true, but then many people who don't care about "proving" or discussing more about it generally ain't gonna voice it in a forum. Anyone who voices their opinion publicly in a forum designed for engagement and discussion on said thought taking the "I don't need to elaborate" angle goes out the window. Otherwise it's no different then the people who complain about TSW with a "I hate this" with no elaboration as to what could or should be improved.

I've always thought TOD4 looked rubbish, and I've played vast majority of my time with no use of HDR, and from what I understand the HDR on my monitors is pretty rubbish anyway from the reviews I've read. And while I understand HDR's a feature picking up in popularity I'd still question if the majority of the player base use it.

All that though I agree with, the only asterisk is as much as the night skies look objectively more night like, it also tends to exaggerate the problems with night lightings. It's great if a route's actually got decent night lighting, but makes the routes complete rubbish to play on with how hard it is to bloody see. And unfortunately due to the lack of hard standards in this game tons of routes still have exceptionally terrible night lighting. A shame since TOD4 night lighting should be a rather clear and obvious win for it otherwise.

 

Explain to me what arguments you have that make me "objectively wrong"? What makes my view on this topic less worth then yours? What makes you believe you have the right to judge me in my personal and mental health? Tell me, im all ears.

 

The problem I had when upgrading to a HDR display was although it was disabled in the in game settings, windows had automatically enabled it in the display settings and was forcing all applications to use it.

So although I thought it was disabled or wasn't actually disabled.

And yes a lot of routes night lighting is rubbish. There's no ambient light, the draw distance on most light sources is too short. And a lot of light sources don't emit enough light. Although going by some mods I've used there's no balance between to bright or to dark.
Maybe if the game had some sort of contrast and brightness setting you could tinker with it a bit.

My guess is there's no setting because it would completely mess the game up.

 

I don't know how to make it any clearer... I am not talking about clouds.

Lighting ≠ clouds.

While my description of the lighting was in jest, I think it's quite obvious the lighting is too bright in most situations. All things considered, I believe that the lighting in TSW1 and 2 is more accurate in general, even though it does have its own flaws.

Feel free to explain why you think it's methodically weak and I'll get back to you.

To save time though, I'm going to list some potential issues with the testing, and my responses to them.

• "An iPhone camera isn't accurate to real-world lighting." An issue with current day photography is people assuming that they're professionals because they have a smartphone with a good camera. To be fair, modern-day flagship phone cameras are more than good enough for the majority of people. Part of the appeal is the lack of setup required; most of the time phone cameras are just point and shoot. The phone I used was an iPhone 16 Pro Max, which I upgraded to when my iPhone XR started to get really past its sell-by date. The iPhone XS/R camera is noted to be among the most accurate when it comes to colours, even compared to later models. Whether that's true or not, I do not know. The real-world photos have been taken with HDR enabled (why wouldn't they be?). I have noticed the photographs I take being different to the real world, but this is primarily in saturation and temperature, which is not a part of the experiment.
  
  I should stress that there is no camera or photograph that is 100% accurate to real world lighting conditions. Every photograph ever taken is subject to the choices made by the person handling the camera and the person editing the photograph. Crucially, if I believed the photographs I have taken do not represent real-world lighting I would not have used them in the first place.
• "A car is not the same as a train." Environmental lighting doesn't change based on what is being photographed. As I said before, if I didn't believe the photograph was accurate I would not have used it. If, on the other hand, the photographs were a test of reflection and material quality, I would have made sure to use a photograph of a train. I'll let you into a little secret which explains why I didn't use one - I don't photograph trains often. Shocking, I know. Since I got my new phone I haven't taken a single photograph of a train that's outdoors and not through a window. I could have used one taken indoors, or one shot through the window of a train, but that would not be accurate or relevant to the discussion.

Below, I have set up another comparison. The photograph is from the East Kent Railway, when I was visiting the area in October last year. It was taken just after midday, with overcast skies. Note that this photograph was taken on an iPhone XR.

I set up similar conditions in TSW5. Individually, I don't think the lighting here is bad. The colour is quite reasonable for the conditions, and the photo above is subject to the iPhone-ification of photographs. I'd imagine that the real world lighting in the scene above would be at a medium point between the photo and the screenshot. What I am trying to demonstrate is that when the clouds aren't there, TSW's lighting goes out of control. This was not an issue the earlier you go in the series.

• "Steam screenshots have compression." I know. There is nothing I can do about it, but I've found the effects on colour depth to be minimal. Obviously a direct screen grab with no compression would be better, but this is an option I do not have access to.

To be clear, none of the screenshots I took had HDR enabled. I don't own any HDR monitors anyway. No INI tweaks were used either. I have used them in the past, but I haven't found them to improve the lighting enough to justify their use. The same applies to RW Enhancer.

 

I dont know if you just skip the parts where im not talking about clouds but ok.
I would be fine if you stay at your point and i stay with mine, after all neither of us can change the other ones opinion.
So on we dont need to argue any further as it wouldnt lead anywhere anyways.

 

It all boils down to:
Person A "I like this."
Person B: "Well I like this!"
Person A: "That's nice."
Person B: "Well you can't POSSIBLY like that because I don't like it and what I don't like is THE MOST HORRIBLE THING EVER!"
Person A: "I disagree, but that's nice."
Person B: "But you're obviously stupid and can't see how brilliant I am for liking my thing."
Person A: "Don't care. That's nice you like your thing."
Person B: "Why are you attacking me for just telling you how awesome my thing is, and why don't you just admit I'm right on it?"
Person A: "I disagree, but you can have your opinion."
Person B: "It's NOT opinion! It's fact if I believe it! ADMIT FACT!"
Person A: "It's not fact. It's opinion. We have different opinions. Have a nice day."
Person B: "I will NOT have a nice day! I'm going to keep posting things until you agree that my opinion is fact and you can't have your opinion without being a total idiot who doesn't recognize my brilliance."

Then it keeps going and going and going....

 

And that's why I personally don't give a monkeys arse about anyone's opinions, I respect that they have them, but at the same time don't care about them either as they will never shift my opinion in any way......

 

That just means you’re darn stubborn about improving your game! RWE2 is a revolution in improving TSC for me.
Do you still watch tv in black and white too?

 

I’ve largely avoided 3rd party routes and trains which is why my experience has been solid along with RWE2 which is usually only decried by those that don’t actually use it I find.
But yes I believe missing assets can be a pain otherwise, just like in trainz.
I’m glad TSW didn’t go down that route because it can be frustrating and you end up spending more time fiddling than driving.

 

It's off topic, but I genuinely believe some films and TV shows would look better in black and white. I don't think they should be filmed in black and white, and I think modern films and TV shows that are black and white are just doing it as a gimmick, but there are plenty that could have a cool alternative version in greyscale.